Meditations on "the soul"

[Maus]

What is it to say you believe in the human soul?

What are you really articulating when you speak of such a thing?

To be able to qualify even an interest in such matters can you point to any demonstrable instance of the nature or substance of a soul?

Is it simply a matter of speaking on immaterial things and forgetting that as such it equates to speaking of nothing?

Outlandish appeals to the authority of dogmatic maxims might be proffered but that is completely uninteresting to me as, in my estimation, the creationist religions have been dealt with at length and the bad ideas therein been put paid to.

But what if you have reason on your side and you still cannot disabuse yourself of the notion of the soul? What would make you convinced that such a thing might exist? Is it because we feel a mind-body separation intuitively? Is it because we bend to the seduction of wishful thinking which speaks of a continued consciousness beyond the body?

When such a person says “soul” do they in fact fail in saying “spirit”? In other words, are they attributing something charged with natural forces and processes to something immaterial, inexplicable and therefore very likely fallacious?

I suppose what I’m asking is; what would qualify as evidence of a soul for you and if you already believe we are imbued with such a thing then what can you possibly tell us about the nature of a soul. What can you say about the soul at all?

I do apologise if I have negatively transgressed any of the rules here, or failed to follow general posting protocol. But it is my first post here and I hope not the last so bear with me, eh?

[Nick_A]

Bernee

Perhaps this is because I have seen nothing that would suggest Needleman is talking anything other than nonsense - describing shadows on the wall of his cave.

OK so you deny levels of reality. I must decide if either you or Dr, Needleman is talking nonsense. I look at his credentials and also having experienced some of what he refers to. I must conclude that it is far more probable that your emotional denial that prevents you from understanding him.

I know hot from cold, I know the difference between 0c and 20c. I can appreciate the difference between existence and non-existence. Now how about the 'existence equivalent' of the difference between 0c and 20c?

What you are describing as the span between 0c and 20c is a measure of vibration. The scale of "being" is also a measure of vibration. The higher the vibration the finer the density of matter and the closer to the source of living vibration itself.

Only if it is accepted that the source of being is 'UP' in the first place. There is nothing that indicates this is the case.

It is perfectly clear to those that are aware that all matter vibrates and the materiality we know of that corresponds with organic life varies in its vibrations.

I repeat - evolution does not recognize 'up' or 'down'. I suggest you see it as such from your narrow anthropocentric view of of existence.

You can repeat it but it doesn't make it true. Anyone who is aware of how evolution is part of a cycle that begins with involution is aware of vibratory frequencies referred to loosely as "up and down."

You would appear to be claiming here that mankind started out as uniform and 'involved' into the different races.

Do you realize how nonsensical that sounds?

Yes it seems absurd. However it is common sense to those that understand Genesis 1:

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

There is a transition between the creation of Man as "him" and "them" and "them" refers to the earthly conditions the physical body compliments. Man was created before the earth could harbor life as explained in Genesis 2:

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [c] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [d] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- the LORD God formed the man The Hebrew for man (adam) sounds like and may be related to the Hebrew for ground (adamah) it is also the name Adam (see Gen. 2:20). from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

"Man" is clearly the "living being" from which all the manifestations of "them" originated or involuted from.

Either you are engaging in a category error or equivocation OR evolution anf involution are identical - a change over time. I think the former is more likely the case.

The cycle of involution/evolution are the same in that they exist as a whole connecting the above and below.. In Buddhism it is known as samsara and in Christianity it is "dust to dust."

[bernee51]

Bernee

Perhaps this is because I have seen nothing that would suggest Needleman is talking anything other than nonsense - describing shadows on the wall of his cave.

OK so you deny levels of reality.

There are 'levels' - stages - of individual consciousness which correlate not only with the development (evolution) of our species as community but also with stages of belief. Modern monotheistic religions are very much aligned with the mythic. Others - such as yourself - move on to build a rational explanation of their theistic beliefs. Others still move on to an experiential understanding of the nature of being.

I must decide if either you or Dr, Needleman is talking nonsense. I look at his credentials...

Appeal to authority.

...and also having experienced some of what he refers to.

So you claim - but are yet to share HOW that experience has manifested.

I must conclude that it is far more probable that your emotional denial that prevents you from understanding him.

Or perhaps your emotional neediness gives you a particular understanding in that - for you - it 'fills the gap' in your knowledge and experience.

I know hot from cold, I know the difference between 0c and 20c. I can appreciate the difference between existence and non-existence. Now how about the 'existence equivalent' of the difference between 0c and 20c?

What you are describing as the span between 0c and 20c is a measure of vibration.

Yes

The scale of "being" is also a measure of vibration.

Because you say so?

The higher the vibration the finer the density of matter and the closer to the source of living vibration itself.

And the 'source of living vibration' is?

I repeat - evolution does not recognize 'up' or 'down'. I suggest you see it as such from your narrow anthropocentric view of of existence.

You can repeat it but it doesn't make it true. Anyone who is aware of how evolution is part of a cycle that begins with involution is aware of vibratory frequencies referred to loosely as "up and down."

I love this 'anyone who is aware'.

This 'involution' theory has all the hallmarks of a rationalization to fill the gaps left by the dissolution of the mythic god concept. It is not born out by observation.

You would appear to be claiming here that mankind started out as uniform and 'involved' into the different races.

Do you realize how nonsensical that sounds?

Yes it seems absurd. However it is common sense to those that understand Genesis 1:

If you are relying on the writings of Bronze Age nomads to explain complex metaphysics I stand by 'nonsensical'.

There is a transition between the creation of Man as "him" and "them" and "them" refers to the earthly conditions the physical body compliments. Man was created before the earth could harbor life as explained in Genesis 2:

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [c] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [d] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- the LORD God formed the man The Hebrew for man (adam) sounds like and may be related to the Hebrew for ground (adamah) it is also the name Adam (see Gen. 2:20). from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Of course one notices syncretisms: Atman - Adam, Jiva - Eve and then there is the Tree of Atman and Jiva (cf, Biblical trees in Eden)

If you are taking this as literal then, in my eyes, you are rapidly losing any credibility.

"Man" is clearly the "living being" from which all the manifestations of "them" originated or involuted from.

Man is clearly the source of these concepts.

Either you are engaging in a category error or equivocation OR evolution anf involution are identical - a change over time. I think the former is more likely the case.

The cycle of involution/evolution are the same in that they exist as a whole connecting the above and below.. In Buddhism it is known as samsara and in Christianity it is "dust to dust."

As noted: category error

[Nick_A]

Bernee

All you seem to be doing is denying without lending anything positive. You knock Prof. Needleman but are you open to even contemplating what this one person is doing on his site. He is open to the question. These ideas aren't easy but a person simply cannot get anywhere by arguing and denying. This person is contemplating by keeping the question open.

http://godnix.wordpress.com/2006/08/20/ ... -the-soul/

The principal power of the soul, which defines its real nature, is a gathered attention that is directed simultaneously toward the spirit and the body. This is attention of the heart, and this is the principal mediating, harmonizing power of the soul. The mediating attention of the heart is spontaneously activated in the state of profound self-questioning. God can only speak to the soul, Father Sylvan writes, and only when the soul exists. But the soul of man only exists for a moment, as long as it takes for the question to appear and disappear.

The questions are far deeper than you give them credit for and arguing assures their depth will never be appreciated.

[bernee51]

Bernee

All you seem to be doing is denying without lending anything positive.

And you seem to be constantly speaking ABOUT contemplative practice (aka inner empiricism) and not FROM a position that indicates experience.

You knock Prof. Needleman but are you open to even contemplating what this one person is doing on his site. He is open to the question.

I have spent the in excess of 40 years contemplating and studying these issues. In 2003 I sat in the very same position as Needleman and contemplated the Sphinx...and had a similar peak experience. (Would you like me to send you a picture?).

I speak from a position of contemplative practice...do you?

These ideas aren't easy but a person simply cannot get anywhere by arguing and denying. This person is contemplating by keeping the question open.

I ask for clarification from you and get none. You either do not know because you are parroting the opinions of others or do not care to share. I have a strong sense of the former.

For exmple:

The scale of "being" is also a measure of vibration. Why?
The higher the vibration the finer the density of matter and the closer to the source of living vibration itself. The source of vibration is?

Oh look...yet another case of quote mining...

http://godnix.wordpress.com/2006/08/20/ ... -the-soul/

The principal power of the soul, which defines its real nature, is a gathered attention that is directed simultaneously toward the spirit and the body. This is attention of the heart, and this is the principal mediating, harmonizing power of the soul. The mediating attention of the heart is spontaneously activated in the state of profound self-questioning. God can only speak to the soul, Father Sylvan writes, and only when the soul exists. But the soul of man only exists for a moment, as long as it takes for the question to appear and disappear.

I have shared my definition of the soul. The 'divine' does communicate through the soul - with spirit. The 'divine' is Atman.

As for 'profound self questioning' - Who am I?

The questions are far deeper than you give them credit for and arguing assures their depth will never be appreciated.

The answer to these questions is far simpler than you understand...you see them as 'deep' because of the standpoint from which you view them. Hopefully discussing them will raise your awareness and the depth will ameliorate.

You appear to have almost shrugged of the mythic...it is now the rational you are wresting with.

[bernee51]

The experience was genuine...