Why 'Free Will' is Logically Impossible

[Rational Atheist]

Here is a simple, yet powerful, argument against the idea that we 'freely' choose our actions.

1. Our thoughts determine our choices.

2. We do not freely choose our thoughts.

3. Therefore, our choices cannot be free.

I don't think anyone would object to premise 1, especially those who believe in free will, since by definition, a "free" choice, if it could exist, requires a person to consciously make it, which by definition involves thought. Premise 2 may be controversial to some, but with a simple thought experiment, it can be proven to be true. If a person could freely choose their thoughts, then they would have to be able to consciously choose what they were going to think before actually thinking it. In other words, there would have to be a time before a person thinks a thought that that thought was consciously chosen by a person, which literally entails the necessity of being able to think a thought before one thinks it. This, of course, is a logical contradiction. Ergo, free will does not exist.

[Inquirer]

[Replying to Miles in post #208]

And where is the metaphysical realm located?

That question doesn't make sense. Suppose that mathematical realism is true. It would be like asking where numbers are located. It would be like asking where are platonic forms located.

Saying "It would reside in the metaphysical realm" implies there is a place to be inside of, and all I'm wondering is where this place is. And it's nothing like asking where numbers are located. Numbers and numerical knowledge, including number concepts and arithmetic procedures, signify abstract symbol manipulation comprised of abstract conditions that exist without need of thought or a specific realm. The area of semicircle = 1/2 (π r²) will always be true even if there's no one in the universe to express it or understand it.

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The very term "where" is relative, for example consider "where is the universe".

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #208]

And where is the metaphysical realm located?

That question doesn't make sense. Suppose that mathematical realism is true. It would be like asking where numbers are located. It would be like asking where are platonic forms located.

Saying "It would reside in the metaphysical realm" implies there is a place to be inside of, and all I'm wondering is where this place is. And it's nothing like asking where numbers are located. Numbers and numerical knowledge, including number concepts and arithmetic procedures, signify abstract symbol manipulation comprised of abstract conditions that exist without need of thought or a specific realm. The area of semicircle = 1/2 (π r²) will always be true even if there's no one in the universe to express it or understand it.

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The very term "where" is relative, for example consider "where is the universe".

In the case of the universe, its "where" would be everywhere.

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[William]

[Replying to William in post #205]

The soul appears to be imbued with its own personage...intelligence - awareness - things which we identify with personality.

Is the rational being who we are? If not...what is the relationship between human personality and soul?

Who we are right now is a human being, which I explained already. But when we are not united with a body, yes, we are a rational being, but being metaphysical we do not think like we do when united with a material body. A lot of how we think right now is do to us having these senses that make us aware of existing in a place and time.

So - why do you think that YHVH grows human personalities within an environment which our thinking and ability to be rational are retarded due to the environment of the bodies we exist within?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to William in post #205]

The soul appears to be imbued with its own personage...intelligence - awareness - things which we identify with personality.

Is the rational being who we are? If not...what is the relationship between human personality and soul?

Who we are right now is a human being, which I explained already. But when we are not united with a body, yes, we are a rational being, but being metaphysical we do not think like we do when united with a material body. A lot of how we think right now is do to us having these senses that make us aware of existing in a place and time.

So - why do you think that YHVH grows human personalities within an environment which our thinking and ability to be rational are retarded due to the environment of the bodies we exist within?

Because we need to overcome all manners of evil. Many evils only present themselves to us when we are in this limited state, when we lack awareness of God. As freewill and imperfect beings, we need to find our way out fo the darkness.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #205]

The soul appears to be imbued with its own personage...intelligence - awareness - things which we identify with personality.

Is the rational being who we are? If not...what is the relationship between human personality and soul?

Who we are right now is a human being, which I explained already. But when we are not united with a body, yes, we are a rational being, but being metaphysical we do not think like we do when united with a material body. A lot of how we think right now is do to us having these senses that make us aware of existing in a place and time.

So - why do you think that YHVH grows human personalities within an environment which our thinking and ability to be rational are retarded due to the environment of the bodies we exist within?

Because we need to overcome all manners of evil. Many evils only present themselves to us when we are in this limited state, when we lack awareness of YHVH. As freewill and imperfect beings, we need to find our way out of the darkness.

Why would YHVH place us in the darkness where "all manners of evil" exist?

[Miles]

[Replying to William in post #205]

The soul appears to be imbued with its own personage...intelligence - awareness - things which we identify with personality.

Is the rational being who we are? If not...what is the relationship between human personality and soul?

Who we are right now is a human being, which I explained already. But when we are not united with a body, yes, we are a rational being, but being metaphysical we do not think like we do when united with a material body. A lot of how we think right now is do to us having these senses that make us aware of existing in a place and time.

So - why do you think that YHVH grows human personalities within an environment which our thinking and ability to be rational are retarded due to the environment of the bodies we exist within?

Because we need to overcome all manners of evil.

Book, chapter, and verse please, otherwise this comes across as simple opinion and nothing more. And from what I've gathered, all that's needed is to avoid such things.

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[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to William in post #205]

The soul appears to be imbued with its own personage...intelligence - awareness - things which we identify with personality.

Is the rational being who we are? If not...what is the relationship between human personality and soul?

Who we are right now is a human being, which I explained already. But when we are not united with a body, yes, we are a rational being, but being metaphysical we do not think like we do when united with a material body. A lot of how we think right now is do to us having these senses that make us aware of existing in a place and time.

So - why do you think that YHVH grows human personalities within an environment which our thinking and ability to be rational are retarded due to the environment of the bodies we exist within?

Because we need to overcome all manners of evil. Many evils only present themselves to us when we are in this limited state, when we lack awareness of YHVH. As freewill and imperfect beings, we need to find our way out of the darkness.

Why would YHVH place us in the darkness where "all manners of evil" exist?

Evil is necessary because it is good that freewill beings exist. Only God is perfect so creating freewill beings then by nature they must be less than perfect, which means they will cause suffering, which is evil.

If you want the full argument for why evil is necessary for the good, check this - https://www.freelymeditate.com/single-p ... y-for-good

[Miles]

Evil is necessary because it is good that freewill beings exist.

So, exactly what is the connection you're trying to make between the existence of free will beings and the necessity of evil? IOW, why wouldn't it be good that free will beings existed if evil itself did not exist?

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Assuming that evil only entered the world when A&E ate the apple, then it's reasonable to presume god had no intention of ever putting evil into play, and A&E, had they minded god, would have enjoyed Edenic lives along with their descendants. Right? If so, would they then have lacked free will? OR did god intend on soaking the world with evil from the very outset, regardless of what A&E did?

Only God is perfect

Extremely debatable, and shown to be false---not that some other being is also perfect, but that god himself is not.

so creating freewill beings then by nature they must be less than perfect,

Why does the possession of free will necessarily make one less than perfect? A syllogism might be helpful here.

which means they will cause suffering, which is evil.

What is it about the possession of free will that necessarily causes suffering?

If you want the full argument for why evil is necessary for the good, check this - https://www.freelymeditate.com/single-p ... y-for-good

A bit of presumptive silliness.


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[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Miles in post #218]

Eternal beings will be perfect because if they had any room for improvement they would always achieve it.

We freewill beings are created, thus not eternal, thus not perfect, so our choices will end up being less than perfect, so we will end up causing suffering.

Suffering is a consequence of the good, that we exist. Everything else is for our maximal goodness.

We will probably just have to disagree because we are going in circles.

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #218]

Eternal beings will be perfect because if they had any room for improvement they would always achieve it.

Thing is, just because you can enunciate a proposition doesn't make it true. For instance: Eternal beings will be imperfect because if they had any room for improvement they wouldn't always achieve it.

We freewill beings are created, thus not eternal, thus not perfect [or imperfect], so our choices will end up being less than perfect, so we will end up causing suffering.

And perhaps this is why created beings don't have free will, but live deterministic lives; because so far I haven't seen any argument or evidence for the existence of free will. Only claims. If you're going to assert X exists, you best have evidence of its truth or reasoning people will blow you off in a heartbeat.

Suffering is a consequence of the good, that we exist.

Easy to say, but so far I haven't seen any argument or evidence for such a claim, which is all this is. Thing is, I can just as easily say "Suffering is a consequence of the bad, that we exist."

Everything else is for our maximal goodness.

Which is what? What is our maximal goodness, and how do you know that everything outside of suffering (or is it a consequence of the good) is for it? Sounds like fantasy writ large.

We will probably just have to disagree because we are going in circles.

Indeed we do disagree, although, it isn't because we are going in circles, but because claims without proof or evidence are worthless. Back up your assertions and perhaps we'll have something to agree on.

Prove, or at least show your evidence, that "Eternal beings will be perfect because if they had any room for improvement they would always achieve it" is true.

Prove, or at least show your evidence, that "We freewill beings are created, thus not eternal, thus not perfect, so our choices will end up being less than perfect, so we will end up causing suffering" is true.

Prove, or at least show your evidence, that "Suffering is a consequence of the good, that we exist" is true.

Prove, or at least show your evidence, that "Everything else is for our maximal goodness" is true.


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