Determinism and Free Will examined

[Compassionist]

It is my observation that Free Will does not exist. I am a determinist or a causalitist. Everything is proceeding according to causality. Causality rules!

I also think that the dichotomy between Hard Determinism and Soft Determinism is false. There is only determinism. All things are determined by causality.

[Miles]

Let's pretend that I believe in determinism and causality. Who or what determines or causes each action and thought, even the illusion of free will?

Even without your pretending, it comes down to whatever came before. If you do X it's because A, G, N, P, Q, R, S, and T all inexorably led up to you doing X. Your doing X could not have been otherwise, unless some other determining factor intervened, which would then simply be in addition to the factors A, G, N, P, Q, R, S, and T: A, G, N, P, Q, R, S, T, and W.

[0JesusFreak]

Ah but by that reasoning I have all decisions. Not one avenue of exploration has gone untouched. By the law of what you are saying if I come to a fork in the road and all causality leads me to turn right all causality equally leads me to turn left as well as to turn back or to do nothing at all until a new discission presents itself.

[Miles]

Ah but by that reasoning I have all decisions. Not one avenue of exploration has gone untouched.

Not understanding you at all. what does,"by that reasoning I have all decisions" mean?

By the law of what you are saying if I come to a fork in the road and all causality leads me to turn right all causality equally leads me to turn left as well as to turn back or to do nothing at all until a new discission presents itself.

How could it? Let's say a marble is sent rolling down a hill and there are several dips and bumps in its path (determinants of its trajectory). Looking at the path before hand it's pretty hard to say which D or B will alter the marble's trajectory and by how much. So we give the marble a push and film it as it wobbles down the hill. When it comes to rest it does so at one particular spot. In playing back the film we can see exactly which dips and bumps did what to the marble, in effect determining its final resting spot. Now, could the marble have landed elsewhere? No because each dip and bump had one and only one effect on the marble, to send it in the direction it did. there was nothing inherent in any of the dips or bumps that allowed them to act upon the marble any differently than they did. Once we set the marble in motion, also a determining event, the marble was inexorably destined to wind up exactly where it did and no other.
Same with the causality (the dips and bumps) that lead you to turn right. It could not also lead you to turn left. In order to turn left the causality would necessarily have to be different,: not the same as you suggest.

[0JesusFreak]

Not understanding you at all. what does,"by that reasoning I have all decisions" mean?

Sorry, that's a typo. it should say "by that reasoning I have made all decisions"

[0JesusFreak]

How could it? Let's say a marble is sent rolling down a hill and there are several dips and bumps in its path (determinants of its trajectory). Looking at the path before hand it's pretty hard to say which D or B will alter the marble's trajectory and by how much. So we give the marble a push and film it as it wobbles down the hill. When it comes to rest it does so at one particular spot. In playing back the film we can see exactly which dips and bumps did what to the marble, in effect determining its final resting spot. Now, could the marble have landed elsewhere? No because each dip and bump had one and only one effect on the marble, to send it in the direction it did. there was nothing inherent in any of the dips or bumps that allowed them to act upon the marble any differently than they did. Once we set the marble in motion, also a determining event, the marble was inexorably destined to wind up exactly where it did and no other.
Same with the causality (the dips and bumps) that lead you to turn right. It could not also lead you to turn left. In order to turn left the causality would necessarily have to be different,: not the same as you suggest.

To things explain how all decisions are possible: Multiple Universes (proven to exist mathematically) and Chaos Theory (the unpredictable element of - as I like to describe it - "what if?")

Chaos theory allows for the unpredictable results due to minute changes and multiple universes are the result because one theory held by many physicists' states that every decision leads to new universes being created at that moment in which the path not taken was taken or neither were taken at all. Maybe the decider died at that instant in one of those universes.

This is all actually seriously considered in scientific communities.

[Miles]

To things explain how all decisions are possible: Multiple Universes (proven to exist mathematically) and Chaos Theory (the unpredictable element of - as I like to describe it - "what if?")

First, the mathematics of modern quantum physics only implies multiple universes through its set of mathematical structures. Nothing more, and totally irrelevant to the topic here. As for chaos theory, this is just as irrelevant. I suggest you look it up, perhaps on Wikipedia.

Sorry, but you've taken the issue too far off topic to continue down this road.

If you wish to get into chaos theory or multple universes how about starting a new thread.

[Compassionist]

Great posts goat, thank you for saving me from having to type similar statements to yours. Indeterminacy at the quantum level does not at all translate to free-will. Besides, it seems that our unconscious makes the choice and we simply becoming aware of a given choice after it has already been made. I am talking about the experiments of Benjamin Libet. I recommend Mapping the Mind which explains why we have the illusion of free will while we, in fact, lack free will. Typing these words are inevitable and was inevitably determined by all of causality, just as your reading of these words are equally inevitable. In fact, if I had the genes, physical environments, nutrients and experiences that make you who you are, I would inevitably have been you reading these words instead being the one to type these words right here, right now. Causality rules!

I am not sure if that is totally true. I do know we have the illusion of Free will, and it is a very persistent illusion. There are some interpretations of QM that allow for non-causal event. So, I have no idea of 'free will' reigns, or if all is predetermined. I have the illusion of free will, therefore I will pretend I do , and I am destined to take responsibility for my own actions

If you are destined to take responsibility for your own actions then you are not truly responsible.

[0JesusFreak]

And why is this so important to you?

[Miles]

And why is this so important to you?

Why is what important?

[0JesusFreak]

Why is it important to not have that true responsibility?