When God knows a soul goes to hell..

sin_is_fun · Post by **sin_is_fun** » Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:39 pm

When God knows a soul is going to go to hell ,why does he still create that soul?Why create that soul ,judge it later and send it to eternal hell?Stopping creation of such souls seems to be a better option.Why does God create souls knowing fully well that it will land up in eternal hell?

unicorn · Post by **unicorn** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:01 pm

QED:

The evidence is there for those who want to find it. I am not required to do research for everyone, am I?

I am completely serious. The theory of relativity is supported by the bible--the entire bible. If someone doesn't understand, they can ask and I will explain.

Bugmaster · Post by **Bugmaster** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 4:28 pm

unicorn wrote:I am completely serious. The theory of relativity is supported by the bible--the entire bible. If someone doesn't understand, they can ask and I will explain.

Ok, I'll bite. Explain.

Specifically, I'd like to see the Biblical passages that refer to the following:

Special Relativity:

* Speed of light in vacuum being a constant
* The Lorentz Transformations
* The Light Cone

General Relativity:

* The curvature of space-time
* Einstein's field equation
* Tensors of any kind (you'll need them, trust me)
* Red shift

As for my part, I'll claim that a single Wikipedia page contains more information about the theory of relativity than all the holy books of the world -- combined. Let's see your evidence to the contrary.

A 3rd Gentleman · Post by **A 3rd Gentleman** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:14 pm

unicorn wrote:A 3rd Gentleman:

Thank you so much for probing and leading me to a yet more profound level of understanding. I have an answer for you:

God no longer creates each individual soul. Souls beget souls, just as biological bodies beget biological bodies. When two individual/biological beings have intercourse and create another biological being, their souls join and create a new soul. So, He knows what will happen to each of us...all our possibilities and our final choices, but, because He so loves us to allow free-will, He allows us to "become."

This is awesome because it further clarifies the inherited sin issue and the problem of cloning!

You are awesome!

There is a name for this soul reproduction...forgot what it is (had even forgotten of the concept), but will try to find info. on it if you want.

Irrelevant.

If God knows the outcome to a soul's actions - ergo determines them - then that soul's actions are determined. If all action is determined, then all actions are set: concrete; and we are fated to either follow or reject god. If god knows that I will violate the sixth commandment and commit murder, there is no possibility of me of negating the almighty's predictions now, is there? Thus, God cannot judge me on the pretense that he gave me a "choice" to either follow or reject christian doctrine because my future actions of sin were a product of fate and beyond my control or ability to reverse.

harvey1 · Post by **harvey1** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:52 pm

A 3rd Gentleman wrote:If God knows the outcome to a soul's actions - ergo determines them - then that soul's actions are determined.

Knowing the soul's actions is not the same as determining them. People determine their own actions.

3rd Gent wrote:If all action is determined, then all actions are set: concrete; and we are fated to either follow or reject god. If god knows that I will violate the sixth commandment and commit murder, there is no possibility of me of negating the almighty's predictions now, is there?

Sure there is. You determined your own actions, therefore you can also determine not to do those actions so that you are not the one holding the bag.

3rd Gent wrote:Thus, God cannot judge me on the pretense that he gave me a "choice" to either follow or reject christian doctrine because my future actions of sin were a product of fate and beyond my control or ability to reverse.

I don't agree with your conclusions. If we made a decision from our own free-will, and God knew that we were going to make that decision, God is just to judge us after we made that free-will decision. That is, God's knowledge is based on us making the free-will decision.

Bugmaster · Post by **Bugmaster** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:31 pm

harvey1 wrote:Knowing the soul's actions is not the same as determining them. People determine their own actions.

That's true, but God is not only omniscient, but also omnipotent and creator of all souls. Thus, whenever he creates a soul, he knows exactly what choices that soul would make; since he is the omnipotent creator, he determines these choices at the moment of creation.

As I see it, the only way out of this problem is to admit that God is not omniscient (he doesn't know what we'll choose), or not omnipotent (he does not have full control over his creation), or not omnibenevolent (he creates some people to go to Hell just for the fun of it).

A 3rd Gentleman · Post by **A 3rd Gentleman** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:26 pm

Knowing the soul's actions is not the same as determining them. People determine their own actions.

If God has established our future actions within a definite certainty, then he has determined our future actions. If you don't believe me you should check the dictionary definition of 'determine'.

Sure there is. You determined your own actions, therefore you can also determine not to do those actions so that you are not the one holding the bag.

To determine - or acquire explicit knowledge of the future, the future must be definite and absolute. You can not contradict absolutes. This means, if it is possible for God to determine our future, our future must be predecided.

A question to prove my point:

"How does one not commit murder if God already knows that they will?"

I don't agree with your conclusions. If we made a decision from our own free-will, and God knew that we were going to make that decision, God is just to judge us after we made that free-will decision. That is, God's knowledge is based on us making the free-will decision.

You are presuming that free-will exists for the sake of your argument. Omniscience and free-will are incompatible, because free-will is always indeterminate, while every event and happening is determined as a condition of omniscience.

unicorn · Post by **unicorn** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:44 pm

A 3rd Gentleman:

Irrelevant.

Hard to understand, anything but irrelevant. Just because God knows the outcome, doesn't mean He causes it. I've had many an acqaintence make a mistake, knowing in advance that they would. Does that mean I made them make the mistake? No!

If God knows the outcome to a soul's actions--ergo determines them...

Huge debate within Christianity. I believe it is called predeterminism.

unicorn · Post by **unicorn** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:46 pm

Bugmaster:

This is not where I first learned about Theory of Relativity and its support of the bible, but this is a cool, quick article:

http://www.dyeager.org/articles/frames.php

A 3rd Gentleman · Post by **A 3rd Gentleman** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:15 pm

unicorn wrote: Hard to understand, anything but irrelevant. Just because God knows the outcome, doesn't mean He causes it. I've had many an acqaintence make a mistake, knowing in advance that they would. Does that mean I made them make the mistake? No!

Huge debate within Christianity. I believe it is called predeterminism.

It doesn't matter if he causes it! This was never a tenet relevant to this debate, he still passes judgement on souls for things that were beyond their control by virtue of all actions being determined.

harvey1 · Post by **harvey1** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:23 pm

Bugmaster wrote:That's true, but God is not only omniscient, but also omnipotent and creator of all souls. Thus, whenever he creates a soul, he knows exactly what choices that soul would make; since he is the omnipotent creator, he determines these choices at the moment of creation.

I think that God is the ultimate cause for there being a soul, but God didn't choose to make some souls good and some souls evil. My view is that God happens to exist, therefore souls of all varieties exist as a result of this more primitive fact. God didn't choose that a particular soul should be evil, the soul in question chooses to be evil that's what makes it evil. The basic axiom of a soul is one of free choice:

God, freedom, becoming (etc.) exists
God's existence weakly determines a boundary on what souls can and cannot be
God instantiates a world where free souls come to exist
Choices in the world define what the soul is
Souls freely choose their definition while in the world
God knows the definition they choose before instantiating a world because God has omniscience and is omnipresent in the present and future
God judges the free souls (eternalize or purify)
All souls eventually purified and eternal?

Bugmaster wrote:As I see it, the only way out of this problem is to admit that God is not omniscient (he doesn't know what we'll choose), or not omnipotent (he does not have full control over his creation), or not omnibenevolent (he creates some people to go to Hell just for the fun of it).

The above order preserves God as omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.