Can something be true if it cannot be shown to be true

[McCulloch]

Since no one can prove anything to the other when it comes to invisible concepts and spiritual principles of life, [...]

Question for debate: Is is meaningful to say that something is true that cannot be shown to be true, even in principle?

[cnorman18]

...Certainly there are many denominations (maybe even most) who individually restrict the definition of what makes someone a Christian or not and as such have a narrow range of acceptable beliefs...

Most denominations have statements of belief that they encourage people to adhere to. But the majority of these beliefs derive from Jesus' teaching and status as the divine Son of God. There is very little in Christianity that requires any particular interpretation of the Old Testament. There is nothing to prevent a traditional Jew from converting to Christianity while leaving his or her interpretations of the Hebrew Bible largely unchanged--and that is even more true with respect to Judaism's emphasis on making the present world a better place.

Abraham Joshua Heschel's book, The Prophets, is a standard text in many Christian seminaries today. It is read not as an introduction to "Jewish interpretation" of the prophets, but simply on its own merits. The same thing could be said of other Jewish authors such as Geza Vermes, Robert Alter, and Nahum Sarna. Statements to the contrary simply reflect very outmoded (and very biased) views about Christianity.

Does "being a Christian" entail belief that (1) God Almighty was Incarnate in the form of a human being? (2) "Salvation" can only be attained by belief in that Incarnate God and his substitutionary sacrifice in the place of sinful humans? (3) That belief and not behavior is the determinant of being "saved" in the first place?

If so, the idea that "There is nothing to prevent a traditional Jew from converting to Christianity while leaving his or her interpretations of the Hebrew Bible largely unchanged" is an egregious falsehood that can only come from either the falsification of Jewish beliefs, or ignorance of them. As far as "emphasis on making the present world a better place," I have already said that the ethic of Judaism and Christianity are virtually identical; but I have yet to find a Christian who will tell me that ethics, and not "salvation," is the point of Christianity.

Judaism and Christianity are different and distinct religions, though we do share insights and perspectives and have much in common. Christianity is NOT an outgrowth or development of Judaism; it entails the incorporation of many Greek ideas that are foreign to Judaism. One cannot become a Christian without abandoning Judaism. That is a determination that has been in place for centuries by consensus of the Jewish people of all branches and sects, and Christians do not get a vote. The nature of Judaism is determined by Jews and not by Christians. Period, full stop.

[EduChris]

...the idea that "There is nothing to prevent a traditional Jew from converting to Christianity while leaving his or her interpretations of the Hebrew Bible largely unchanged" is an egregious falsehood...I have yet to find a Christian who will tell me that ethics, and not "salvation," is the point of Christianity...Christianity is NOT an outgrowth or development of Judaism...

You insist on contrasting "very liberal Judaism" with "very conservative Christianity" (apparently that is the only form of Christianity you know?).

I have been comparing the full spectrum of Judaism with the full spectrum of Christianity. There is far less difference between "very liberal Judaism" and "very liberal Christianity" than there is between either "very liberal Judaism" and "very conservative Judaism" or between "very liberal Christianity" and "very conservative Christianity."

I do recognize that there was a split between Judaism and Christianity within the first century after Jesus (and many Jews of that time persecuted Christians). However, the first Christians were all Jews who did not think they were relinquishing their Jewishness by accepting Jesus as the Jewish messiah.

[cnorman18]

...the idea that "There is nothing to prevent a traditional Jew from converting to Christianity while leaving his or her interpretations of the Hebrew Bible largely unchanged" is an egregious falsehood...I have yet to find a Christian who will tell me that ethics, and not "salvation," is the point of Christianity...Christianity is NOT an outgrowth or development of Judaism...

You insist on contrasting "very liberal Judaism" with "very conservative Christianity" (apparently that is the only form of Christianity you know?).

As a former liberal Methodist, I find that question laughable.

I have been comparing the full spectrum of Judaism with the full spectrum of Christianity. There is far less difference between "very liberal Judaism" and "very liberal Christianity" than there is between either "very liberal Judaism" and "very conservative Judaism" or between "very liberal Christianity" and "very conservative Christianity."

As far as ethics are concerned, you are quite right, and I have said as much repeatedly. As far as theological doctrines concerning the nature of God, "salvation," etc., are concerned, I disagree.

I do recognize that there was a split between Judaism and Christianity within the first century after Jesus (and many Jews of that time persecuted Christians). However, the first Christians were all Jews who did not think they were relinquishing their Jewishness by accepting Jesus as the Jewish messiah.

And they were mistaken, beginning with Paul. Further, both Christianity and Judaism are very different today from the religions of two thousand years ago. Many Christians don't seem to have a very firm grasp of that concept.

I notice that you deleted and refused to answer my questions. Allow me to repeat them for your convenience:

Does "being a Christian" entail belief that (1) God Almighty was Incarnate in the form of a human being? (2) "Salvation" can only be attained by belief in that Incarnate God and his substitutionary sacrifice in the place of sinful humans? (3) That belief and not behavior is the determinant of being "saved" in the first place?

One may not subscribe to any of those beliefs and remain a Jew, which was your allegation.

[EduChris]

...As a former liberal Methodist, I find that question laughable.

That must have been a very long time ago. I have seen nothing from your posts to indicate that you have any inkling of contemporary non-conservative Christianity.

Does "being a Christian" entail belief that (1) God Almighty was Incarnate in the form of a human being? (2) "Salvation" can only be attained by belief in that Incarnate God and his substitutionary sacrifice in the place of sinful humans? (3) That belief and not behavior is the determinant of being "saved" in the first place?

Yes for #1; No for #2 and #3.

One may not subscribe to any of those beliefs and remain a Jew, which was your allegation.

My "allegation" was that the belief that Jesus is the Messiah and the divine Son of God is the only real line of demarcation between Jews and Christians. Your three "questions" (and their corresponding answers) show this to be the case, although apparently you weren't previously aware of this fact.

[cnorman18]

...As a former liberal Methodist, I find that question laughable.

That must have been a very long time ago. I have seen nothing from your posts to indicate that you have any inkling of contemporary non-conservative Christianity.

I have over 4,000 posts here. Are you claiming to have read them all?

If not, where do you get off passing such a judgment? I have referred to the remarkably non-orthodox and radical views of my professors at Perkins School of Theology this week. Spare me your unfounded assumptions about my understanding of Christian diversity.

Does "being a Christian" entail belief that (1) God Almighty was Incarnate in the form of a human being? (2) "Salvation" can only be attained by belief in that Incarnate God and his substitutionary sacrifice in the place of sinful humans? (3) That belief and not behavior is the determinant of being "saved" in the first place?

Yes for #1; No for #2 and #3.

Let's nail those down.

#2: If "salvation" does not come through belief in Jesus as Savior in Christianity, just how are Christians "saved"?

#3: Is "salvation" not obtained by faith for Christians, as opposed to by "works"?

I think St. Paul would be surprised by your alleging that one may abandon those tenets of the faith and still consider oneself a Christian. Perhaps you can explain.

One may not subscribe to any of those beliefs and remain a Jew, which was your allegation.

My "allegation" was that the belief that Jesus is the Messiah and the divine Son of God is the only real line of demarcation between Jews and Christians. Your three "questions" (and their corresponding answers) show this to be the case, although apparently you weren't previously aware of this fact.

Even if you were right, #1 is quite enough. One may not believe in the Incarnation and remain a Jew. The oldest tenet of Judaism, and one of the very few that is NOT optional, is that God is One - and that means that God does not share His Authority, Power and Sovereignty with anyone or anything. I repeat; the idea that God can literally father a human child who is himself Divine is a Greek idea and totally foreign to Judaism. If that belief is required of Christians, as you here admit, one may not become a Christian and remain a Jew.

I would remind you once again that Christians don't get to make these determinations. Jews do, and the question has been settled for two thousand years. It's a bit late to tell us we don't know what we're talking about.

[EduChris]

...I have over 4,000 posts here. Are you claiming to have read them all?

Of course not. I'm just saying that of all the post I have read by you, none of them indicate any knowledge of contemporary Christianity. In fact, you seem to know only vapid stereotypes of the Christian faith.

...#2: If "salvation" does not come through belief in Jesus as Savior in Christianity, just how are Christians "saved"?

Faith is necessary to be a follower of Jesus, but salvation comes from God and God alone. Many Christians today do not claim that one must be a follower of Jesus in order to receive the gift of salvation. Ever heard of Karl Rahner?

...#3: Is "salvation" not obtained by faith for Christians, as opposed to by "works"?

See above.

...I think St. Paul would be surprised by your alleging that one may abandon those tenets of the faith and still consider oneself a Christian. Perhaps you can explain.

Don't you remember anything at all from your seminary days?

...the idea that God can literally father a human child who is himself Divine is a Greek idea and totally foreign to Judaism...

Again you demonstrate no knowledge of contemporary Christian doctrine--certainly not at anything even approaching the level that is taught in Christian seminaries.

[cnorman18]

...I have over 4,000 posts here. Are you claiming to have read them all?

Of course not. I'm just saying that of all the post I have read by you, none of them indicate any knowledge of contemporary Christianity. In fact, you seem to know only vapid stereotypes of the Christian faith.

You need to read more of my posts before you presume to say such things. You are describing the very anti-Christian stereotypes and prejudices I have so often argued AGAINST. The old-timers here know this very well.

I have a deep respect, even a reverence, for the Christian faith, even though I do oppose fundamentalism for many reasons. I have said this, in particular, very often: "Christians and Jews are not enemies, but allies; we are on the same side in the battle against the idol-worshippers of the present day - those who worship things, like power, money, gratification, status, and so on." I believe that; but I do NOT believe that Christianity and Judaism are the same religion, or that one is the "precursor" of the other, or even that one is true and the other false.

Like I said, look around a little and read some before you pass judgment.

...#2: If "salvation" does not come through belief in Jesus as Savior in Christianity, just how are Christians "saved"?

Faith is necessary to be a follower of Jesus, but salvation comes from God and God alone. Many Christians today do not claim that one must be a follower of Jesus in order to receive the gift of salvation. Ever heard of Karl Rahner?

Oh, please. Faith in WHAT? Is a Christian obligated to believe in Jesus, or not? Of COURSE salvation comes from God in Christianity. In what does one have to have faith in order to receive it?

...#3: Is "salvation" not obtained by faith for Christians, as opposed to by "works"?

See above.

I did. Did you not say "faith is necessary to be a follower of Christ"? Can one be "saved" WITHOUT faith, through good works alone? Answer the question!

...I think St. Paul would be surprised by your alleging that one may abandon those tenets of the faith and still consider oneself a Christian. Perhaps you can explain.

Don't you remember anything at all from your seminary days?

I do. Were you there, to imply that I don't? To what do you refer?

...the idea that God can literally father a human child who is himself Divine is a Greek idea and totally foreign to Judaism...

Again you demonstrate no knowledge of contemporary Christian doctrine--certainly not at anything even approaching the level that is taught in Christian seminaries.

I don't see you refuting what I said here. Is the story of Zeus and Hercules not Greek? Do you know of anything even remotely analogous in Jewish tradition, other than a single mistranslated and misread verse in the OT?

Maybe instead of merely claiming that I'm ignorant of Christianity, you'd care to DEMONSTRATE that allegation. Tell me where I am wrong here, and precisely why.

[Goat]

...the idea that "There is nothing to prevent a traditional Jew from converting to Christianity while leaving his or her interpretations of the Hebrew Bible largely unchanged" is an egregious falsehood...I have yet to find a Christian who will tell me that ethics, and not "salvation," is the point of Christianity...Christianity is NOT an outgrowth or development of Judaism...

You insist on contrasting "very liberal Judaism" with "very conservative Christianity" (apparently that is the only form of Christianity you know?).

Yet your very own words show the accuracy of Cnorman's evalutation of the differences, even when you were denying them. For example, you were denying the focus of Christainity on the afterlife, because you said 'works are important in this life because it follows you into the next one . There is the focus for the afterlife that Cnorman was pointing out that Judaism doesn't have. In Judaism, people are supposed to do good, because it's the RIGHT thing to do, not because it 'carries over' to an afterlife

I have been comparing the full spectrum of Judaism with the full spectrum of Christianity. There is far less difference between "very liberal Judaism" and "very liberal Christianity" than there is between either "very liberal Judaism" and "very conservative Judaism" or between "very liberal Christianity" and "very conservative Christianity."

I do recognize that there was a split between Judaism and Christianity within the first century after Jesus (and many Jews of that time persecuted Christians). However, the first Christians were all Jews who did not think they were relinquishing their Jewishness by accepting Jesus as the Jewish messiah.

They were kicked out of the synagogues by the time the gospels were written, which is why you see the polemical statements against the Pharisees. Groups like the Ebbonites still existed, who did not consider Jesus divine, but they pretty much disappeared

[EduChris]

...In Judaism, people are supposed to do good, because it's the RIGHT thing to do, not because it 'carries over' to an afterlife...

Jews adhere to ethical principles because God has commanded them to do so in the Torah. Part of the motivation God gives for them in the Torah is to do good to others because of the good that God did for them in delivering them from bondage in Egypt.

Cnorman's dichotomy is false and self-serving; both Judaism and Christianity believe that God is ultimately the reason why we should do good rather than evil. And both Judaism and Christianity teach that there is an afterlife, though of course Christians have greater insight into this afterlife.

[McCulloch]

According to fundamaterialism (not my original word) human consciousness is merely the result of impersonal interactions, somewhat like the processing of a computer. The "something" extra that I seek to define is the self-awareness, the sense of identity, the existential angst that humans feel, and which, so far as we know, is not felt or perceived by nonpersonal entities.

I do believe that humans have self-awareness, a sense of identity and at times existential angst. Yet, I would count myself among the materialists. I see those attributes an emergent qualities. Hydrogen and Oxygen individually do not have wetness, yet water (H₂O) does. Plants appear not to have any self-awareness, fish arguably have minimal self-awareness and humans much more.

BTW: I regard fundamaterialism as a derogatory term. In civil debate, when one is required to use labels, one should choose the label that the those who are labeled would use themselves, unless one is merely building a strawman argument.