Atheism - How can one lack belief?

[theleftone]

I am looking for someone to explain to me (a) the concept of "lacking a belief in the existence of any deities," and (b) how one can truly maintain a position once coming into contact with the concept of a deity. Thus, my questions would be as follows.

1. What does it mean to "lack belief in the existence of any deities?"
2. Is it possible for one to have such a "lack of belief?"
3. Is it possible for one to maintain such a position after being introduced to the concept of a deity?
4. If so, to number 3, how?

[Dion]

Your attempt to qualify and quantify the subjective experiences of theists by means of objective analysis assumes that the viewers insight is comparable to that of the participant. If it is not comparable, then how can you hope to draw any valid conclusion from this?

(My bold)


I'm pretty sure that this is more or less what NGR is saying. You cannot draw any valid conclusion from subjective experience and it is therefore meaningless when it comes to proving the existence of God.

[Curious]

Your attempt to qualify and quantify the subjective experiences of theists by means of objective analysis assumes that the viewers insight is comparable to that of the participant. If it is not comparable, then how can you hope to draw any valid conclusion from this?

(My bold)


I'm pretty sure that this is more or less what NGR is saying. You cannot draw any valid conclusion from subjective experience and it is therefore meaningless when it comes to proving the existence of God.

You cannot draw any conclusion from the objective analysis of the subject experiences of others. It is possible however to draw a conclusion from your own subjective experience.

[Dion]

You cannot draw any conclusion from the objective analysis of the subject experiences of others. It is possible however to draw a conclusion from your own subjective experience.

Only on a limited physical level. (e.g. Avoid putting your hand into a fire because it hurts.) Although it may also be possible for others to confirm your subjective experience via physical evidence. (Burns to your hand.)

Subjective experiences that have no physical manifestation, however, can provide no meaningful evidence for anything. Is God really talking to you or are you simply insane? You may think one thing and I another but there is no certain way of telling who is right. Subjective experiences of this type tell us nothing about whether God exists or not. Even if it is I who hears God talking to me, how do I know that it really is God and that I am not insane? What is the "litmus test" that will let me decide one way or another?

How can one lack belief?

Because one lacks evidence.

If I am to start believing in your God without meaningful evidence why not other gods? If God and angels, why not Satan and demons, ghosts, vampires, werewolves, trolls, leprechauns, fairies or pink unicorns that live on a small planet that orbits the star Alpha Proximina? Where exactly do I draw the line?

[Cathar1950]

It seems that are beliefs are often obtained thru our culture and family which shapes our personal experiences.
Most of it is hearsay, second hand information passed down.

[QED]

Most of it is hearsay, second hand information passed down.

And even at first hand, I very humbly suggest that it was only ever the inspired guesswork of prophets. What more is there to go on? A subjective feeling that there is a God would be very prone to us fooling ourselves: after watching a horror movie for an hour or so I often get the subjective feeling that my house is haunted. No, it ought to be better than that. And I say that because the whole world seems to conduct itself as though there is far stronger evidence for the existence of God. To me this evidence mostly seems to be that people are simply listening to each other in a way that reminds me of the fable Bro Dave introduced in another topic:

Have you ever heard the story of a man who used to go to work at a factory and every day would stop outside a clockmaker’s store to synchronize his watch with the clock outside? At the end of several days the clockmaker stopped him and said, “Excuse me, sir, I do have a question for you. I see that every day you stop and adjust your watch with my clock. What kind of work do you do?” The man said, “I’m embarrassed to tell you this; I keep the time at the factory nearby, and I have to ring the bell at four o clock every afternoon when it is time for the people to go home. My watch doesn’t work very well, so I synchronize it with your clock.” The clockmaker says, “I’ve got bad news for you. My clock doesn’t work very well either, so I synchronize it with the bell that I hear from the factory at 4:00 every afternoon.”

Although Ravi Zacharias intended this to illustrate a very different point his conclusion... "If you’ll pardon the grammar, what happens when two wrong watches correct themselves by each other? They will get wronger and wronger all the time. Even a clock that doesn’t work may show you the right time twice a day…but it’s not because it’s keeping time!" ...might be a good reason to lack belief.

[NGR]

You did not suggest it explicitly but you do imply it. Your attempt to qualify and quantify the subjective experiences of theists by means of objective analysis assumes that the viewers insight is comparable to that of the participant. If it is not comparable, then how can you hope to draw any valid conclusion from this?

I did not suggest it or imply it in any way. I am making no comparison of subjective experiences, but pitting subjective experiences against objective reality. You claim that subjective experiences can show you God. I claim that no such automatic link can be made and I need only show you one example were your claim fails, to make my point. This brings us to your next comment.

And I would not expect you to be able to draw any worthwhile conclusion from this.

Let me break it down into manageable chunks for you. The Aztecs believed the sun was a God, just like the followers of the remaining 2800 odd gods listed on the site I referenced earlier, believed their entity of worship were gods. The Aztecs undertook daily human sacrifices to curry favour with their god and ensure they did not run afoul of such an obviously powerful entity. Objective research in the intervening years has shown that the sun is not a God and the act of human sacrifice is not required to ensure the suns favour.

So lets see now, we have the Aztecs subjective experiences showing them that the Sun is a God and undertaking various activities of worship that their subjective experiences indicate are required for their spiritual wellbeing when objective reality shows now that they were mistaken. Now the worthwhile conclusion I can draw from this is that subjective experiences do not offer proof for the validity of religious practices.

Is that any clearer?

Atheists tend to baulk at the idea of attempting to gain subjective experience of God themselves. The consideration of the anecdotal evidence of others is not subjective evidence but an objective analysis of purported subjective experience.
I don't mean for you to hypnotise yourself and try to convince yourself one way or the other. Don't try to believe anything.

Well you are going to have to do better than that. You have given us a few hints on what an atheist should not do so how about letting us all in on the methodology to un baulk us recalcitrant's. What behaviour do you suggest we adopt to obtain this subjective experience and how would that differ from your understanding of current atheist behaviour?

That WAS the point of my original post. You try to be completely objective but any evidence that might convince you is subjective. If you really want evidence of the existence of God, you will not find it in a book or on a website.

Well I agree you wont find God in a book or a website but from an atheist perspective God seems to be absent from everywhere else as well. Once again your acting all knowledgeable about the subject but uncharitably not sharing with us even part of the secret.

[Cephus]

What you give here are agnostic reasons, not atheistic reasons. It seems a little foolish to state that something does not exist without first exploring every means of investigation. Of course no theist has ever given you a method of obtaining this type of experience. That remains your challenge, not theirs.

Sorry, but the name of the thread is "How can one lack belief", not "How can one disbelieve". Atheists lack belief because there is no reason to believe, the same reason we lack belief in unicorns, leprechauns and Santa Claus. We lack belief because there isn't a shred of objective evidence and all the places where evidence should exist, it doesn't. Therefore, we ask those who demand that God does exist to prove it. They have utterly failed. Therefore, we shall continue not to believe.

[Curious]

You did not suggest it explicitly but you do imply it. Your attempt to qualify and quantify the subjective experiences of theists by means of objective analysis assumes that the viewers insight is comparable to that of the participant. If it is not comparable, then how can you hope to draw any valid conclusion from this?

I did not suggest it or imply it in any way. I am making no comparison of subjective experiences, but pitting subjective experiences against objective reality. You claim that subjective experiences can show you God...

I actually claim that subjective experience can be taken as evidence that might lead to that conclusion. Note the word SUBJECTIVE here.

So lets see now, we have the Aztecs subjective experiences showing them that the Sun is a God and undertaking various activities of worship that their subjective experiences indicate are required for their spiritual wellbeing when objective reality shows now that they were mistaken. Now the worthwhile conclusion I can draw from this is that subjective experiences do not offer proof for the validity of religious practices.

Is that any clearer?

We do not have the Aztec's subjective experiences at all. Only individual Aztec's had these experiences otherwise they would not be subjective would they?

Well I agree you wont find God in a book or a website but from an atheist perspective God seems to be absent from everywhere else as well. Once again your acting all knowledgeable about the subject but uncharitably not sharing with us even part of the secret.

It is the atheist who acts as if they are knowledgeable. As a theist, I am quite aware of my ignorance on the subject. Do you believe that you would be qualified to discuss brain surgery with a doctor if you yourself had never been trained or performed such an operation or that even the most detailed description of such an operation would impart one iota of the experience of the surgeon upon you? Far from being uncharitable, I have given you a genuine method of appraisal.
In my original post I asserted that the atheist demands objective evidence. You continue to demand such objective evidence even though I insist it is fruitless. So which part of my original post is it that you disagree with?

[Curious]

Sorry, but the name of the thread is "How can one lack belief", not "How can one disbelieve". Atheists lack belief because there is no reason to believe, the same reason we lack belief in unicorns, leprechauns and Santa Claus. We lack belief because there isn't a shred of objective evidence and all the places where evidence should exist, it doesn't. Therefore, we ask those who demand that God does exist to prove it. They have utterly failed. Therefore, we shall continue not to believe.

If you read my posts you would be well aware of my view regarding pinning your search on objective evidence. IF you insist on looking for objective evidence then perhaps you would care to check the data concerning the levels of health, longevity, mental illness and happiness between theists and atheists within otherwise similar groups. Maybe this is just a beneficial side effect of believing and not indicative of the existence of God at all. Perhaps you would care to study the rates of plant growth in the homes of theists versus atheists. Again these results, no matter how statistically significant, might be due to factors other than the existence of God. Even if all other known factors are excluded this just points to unknown factors and not necessarily God. You might like to look at case studies of previously disturbed, anti-social individuals who have had complete changes in personality after "finding God". Yet again, still no proof.
You might even consider stopping demanding that others prove it to you and find out for yourself.

[Curious]

How can one lack belief?

Because one lacks evidence.

If I am to start believing in your God without meaningful evidence why not other gods? If God and angels, why not Satan and demons, ghosts, vampires, werewolves, trolls, leprechauns, fairies or pink unicorns that live on a small planet that orbits the star Alpha Proximina? Where exactly do I draw the line?

Believe if you find the evidence compelling enough, otherwise don't. If God sending down an Angel to tell you the meaning of life would be sufficient evidence then so be it. If something else, then fine. Whatever evidence is necessary is the level you should accept. Don't believe just because someone tells you to believe, that would be silly.