Atheism - How can one lack belief?

[theleftone]

I am looking for someone to explain to me (a) the concept of "lacking a belief in the existence of any deities," and (b) how one can truly maintain a position once coming into contact with the concept of a deity. Thus, my questions would be as follows.

1. What does it mean to "lack belief in the existence of any deities?"
2. Is it possible for one to have such a "lack of belief?"
3. Is it possible for one to maintain such a position after being introduced to the concept of a deity?
4. If so, to number 3, how?

[harvey1]

Without proof of the existence of an afterlife then I put it to you that life is given and taken without compassion -- pain and suffering in the world goes unmitigated. Never mind the human condition -- 500 million years of life-forms taking up their place in the food chain is what I call ludicrous if there is some heavenly Father looking out for it all.

Just as an aside to this issue, the cruel facet to the world is answerable from a theist perspective if we think of God a little differently than as a person. You are right, a person doesn't sit around watching innocents be tortured or swept away in a tsunami if they have the power to do something about it. However, I think the correct view of theism is that the Universe is blind to many actions except when paradoxes get in the way, and then the self-(logical)preservation of the Universe reacts by doing what is needed to minimally avoid a paradox. This self-preservation feature (God) does act personably and intimately when it is within God's will to do so. This is why Christians continue to pray, "thy Kingdom come, thy will be done...."

[QED]

Thank you for being candid about the blindness of the universe. When someone asks how it is possible to lack belief this seems like a good reason to me. The "Will of God" (if that is what is thought to be the driving force in the world) appears to be unbending and single minded in it's pursuit of paradox avoidance. This would seem to leave no room for special favours or mercy -- which

[Cephus]

I have done no such thing. I have attempted to demonstrate the futility of the objective analysis of any such data.

Then if it's futile, stop claiming that the data supports what you claim it supports.

Like I said, "Stop demanding others prove it to you". Really, what makes you believe that anyone but yourself has any responsibility to show you jack?

The claimant bears the responsibility to back up their claims, that's the basic rule of logic and debate. If you can't back up your claim, stop making it. So long as people keep claiming that there is a God, they are responsible for proving it.

So are you going to put up or shut up? Those are the choices.

[Bugmaster]

However, I think the correct view of theism is that the Universe is blind to many actions except when paradoxes get in the way, and then the self-(logical)preservation of the Universe reacts by doing what is needed to minimally avoid a paradox. This self-preservation feature (God) does act personably and intimately when it is within God's will to do so. This is why Christians continue to pray, "thy Kingdom come, thy will be done...."

I'm not sure what this means (and I'm having trouble reconciling this with my understanding of your version of theism).

* Does the Universe have a personality ? Or is it more of a machine (albeit a nondeterministic one) ?
* Does God have a personality ? It would need one, in order to have a "will", but I just want to make sure.
* Can God override the functioning of the Universe ? Can the Universe override the functioning of God ? Speaking bluntly, which is more powerful ?

[Bro Dave]

I don't get all of this either. Atheism is obviously false since it has little or no evidence to suggest that we ought to believe the universe is minus God. Atheists usually argue for agnosticism and then when confronted they try to redefine agnosticism. It's pretty ludicrous if you ask me.

Harvey, Atheism is far from being obviously false. Your reasons for believing that God reigns supreme over the universe are at best a guess. Without proof of the existence of an afterlife then I put it to you that life is given and taken without compassion -- pain and suffering in the world goes unmitigated. Never mind the human condition -- 500 million years of life-forms taking up their place in the food chain is what I call ludicrous if there is some heavenly Father looking out for it all.

QED, time/space is a creation, and we, being captive within it, always we weigh it all from our perspectives. How long is 500 million years? For me, a very, very, very long, even unimaginably long time. From a Divine perspective, its not a relavent question. All is "now". And, as we are discussion on another thread, its really all illusionary anyway. Energy patterns and force fields, making believe they are solid matter. Ultimately, when the curtain falls, and the house lights come up, it will have been a grand adventure that even Disney could not duplicate! Pain? Suffering? All are but a part of the grand adventure. Beggars and Kings play their roles, and exit to have beer together outside the theater.

The play's the thing!

Bro Dave

[Bugmaster]

QED, time/space is a creation, and we, being captive within it, always we weigh it all from our perspectives. How long is 500 million years? For me, a very, very, very long, even unimaginably long time. From a Divine perspective, its not a relavent question. ... Pain? Suffering? All are but a part of the grand adventure. Beggars and Kings play their roles, and exit to have beer together outside the theater. The play's the thing!

This sounds very emotionally fulfulling... but... why should I believe it ? And why should I disbelieve any of the other worldviews, such as solipsism (only I exist, the rest is my imagination), gnosticism (all is illusion, only the divine essence is real), Buddhism (the wheel of karma turns and turns), fundamentalist Christianity (people get physically reincarnated in Heaven or Hell when they die), animism (there are lots of tiny mini-gods in all living things), the ancient Babylonian religion (En fashioned the world out of the bones of Tiamat), etc. etc. ? Where's the evidence ?

A mere feeling that God is inside of me is inadequate because a). not everyone has that feeling (I do not, for example), and b). people who do have this feeling interpret it in different, massively contradictory ways (such as the above). Logically speaking, they can't all be right.

[kam&tam]

The only inherent trait natural to all living beings, is freedom of choice. In the context of believing in a diety or not, pales in substance, if you lack the responsibility of excepting the gift of FREEWILL.

[Bro Dave]

QED, time/space is a creation, and we, being captive within it, always we weigh it all from our perspectives. How long is 500 million years? For me, a very, very, very long, even unimaginably long time. From a Divine perspective, its not a relavent question. ... Pain? Suffering? All are but a part of the grand adventure. Beggars and Kings play their roles, and exit to have beer together outside the theater. The play's the thing!

This sounds very emotionally fulfulling... but... why should I believe it ? And why should I disbelieve any of the other worldviews, such as solipsism (only I exist, the rest is my imagination), gnosticism (all is illusion, only the divine essence is real), Buddhism (the wheel of karma turns and turns), fundamentalist Christianity (people get physically reincarnated in Heaven or Hell when they die), animism (there are lots of tiny mini-gods in all living things), the ancient Babylonian religion (En fashioned the world out of the bones of Tiamat), etc. etc. ? Where's the evidence ?

You are demanding physical answers to spiritual questions. Which path is the "right" one? Strangely, just about any path,(including atheism) will do as a starting point. Life has a way of letting us know when we make bad choices. This is also true in our spiritual growth. The point is, you will arrive no where, unless you begin moving! I took me most of my 66 years to finally understand the many truths shared with me, most of which I rejected or ignored. Its okay to be in "first grade". There is no stigma, unless we simply refuse to begin expanding our understanding at all levels. Example of 1st grader: Likes math class; No probem. But, simply will not learn English; Big problem.

A mere feeling that God is inside of me is inadequate because a). not everyone has that feeling (I do not, for example), and b). people who do have this feeling interpret it in different, massively contradictory ways (such as the above). Logically speaking, they can't all be right.

This is a subset of the forrest being invisible because the trees are in the way. God is a substrate, our "background radiation" if you will. You are assuming that experiencing God, is a fireworks display. It,(usually) is not. It is more like that secure loved feeling you got with your parents when you were little, or that you feel with your loved ones as an adult. Plus, if you can relax and be honestly open to your Creator within, you find a "knowing" that far superceeds any fact based understanding. If you think about it, this is an absolute necessity. Basing our access to God on our physical and mental abilities would favor some over others. And strangely, it is those who are most "blessed' with intelligence who struggle hardest against their spiritual inheritance. But it is not an all or nothing at all proposition. Partnering with God hardly precludes asking difficult questions! The problem we have had with our religions, is that they what to claim exclusive access to God, and absolute knowledge. They are lying. God is only approach by us individually. And while we may, if we so choose, come together and worship Him, our realtionship is an "each" relationship, not limited to a group or a religion.

Time to jump down off my soap box! Sorry if I got carried away, but I feel strongly about this.

Bro Dave

[Bugmaster]

You are demanding physical answers to spiritual questions.

No, I'm even worse. I question the very validity of spiritual questions.

Which path is the "right" one? Strangely, just about any path,(including atheism) will do as a starting point.... Example of 1st grader: Likes math class; No probem. But, simply will not learn English; Big problem.

This sounds like you're saying that your path is right, and my path is wrong (in direct contradiction to your opening statement). I fully admit that my "path" may be wrong (I don't really see it as a path, of course), but I'd need to see some evidence before I abandon it.

Plus, if you can relax and be honestly open to your Creator within, you find a "knowing" that far superceeds any fact based understanding.

I understand that you have all these good feelings, and attribute them to God. But remember: many people have the same kinds of feelings, and attribute them to their gods. This is important, because some of these gods command these people to kill infidels; some of them prohibit the eating of shellfish (or any kind of meat), some of them endorse polygamy, etc. Whose god is right ? And what about people who don't experience these spiritual feelings at all ?

The problem we have had with our religions, is that they what to claim exclusive access to God, and absolute knowledge. They are lying.

Are you claiming, exclusively, that all the current religions are wrong ? How do I know you're not lying ? :-)

Again, how do I know that all the current religions are false, but yours is true ?

[Bro Dave]

You are demanding physical answers to spiritual questions.

No, I'm even worse. I question the very validity of spiritual questions.

Which path is the "right" one? Strangely, just about any path,(including atheism) will do as a starting point.... Example of 1st grader: Likes math class; No problem. But, simply will not learn English; Big problem.

This sounds like you're saying that your path is right, and my path is wrong (in direct contradiction to your opening statement). I fully admit that my "path" may be wrong (I don't really see it as a path, of course), but I'd need to see some evidence before I abandon it.

No. Your path is just fine! The proof thereof, is your current frustration, trying to find out what the @%#^@^% is TRUE!

Been there, done that. Nearly lost my mental balance! It’s a great place to start from, just a little unsetteling.

Plus, if you can relax and be honestly open to your Creator within, you find a "knowing" that far supersedes any fact based understanding.

I understand that you have all these good feelings, and attribute them to God. But remember: many people have the same kinds of feelings, and attribute them to their gods.

Same God, different observers. God makes Himself available to us, no matter how badly we misinterpret His messages or how we misunderstand His presents within us.

This is important, because some of these gods command these people to kill infidels;

Really?!?! And all this time, I thought it was just humans misrepresenting God and His wishes. Guess your never too old to learn something new…

…some of them prohibit the eating of shellfish (or any kind of meat), some of them endorse polygamy, etc. Whose god is right ? And what about people who don't experience these spiritual feelings at all ?

About God telling folks about dietary practices, I can only say that some of these things,(like undercooked port and raw oysters as examples) are indeed dangerous, so, sure, I can see God getting the word out. The rest of it I doubt was from divine intervention. As for people who don’t experience spiritual feelings, I can only say I suspect they do. God’s touch is as subtitle as a butterfly wing,(usually!). Finding God is a process. It is not a snap your fingers or do a mystic ceremony, and POOF, … HERE’s GOD! We come in as spiritual infants as well as material infants. We simply pay a lot more attention to growing our material minds, than we do to growing our spiritual soul. We are all Loved by God. Of course we are! We are his Kids! And, what would you, as a parent not do to help your kid to grow and mature? Are your kids always aware how much you love them? Probably not. At least not until they have kids of their own. And that is why we are told that the role of Father, comes closest to describing God’s relationship with us. But, He is obviously so much more.

The problem we have had with our religions, is that they what to claim exclusive access to God, and absolute knowledge. They are lying.

Are you claiming, exclusively, that all the current religions are wrong ? How do I know you're not lying ?

Again, how do I know that all the current religions are false, but yours is true ?

Well, if God is indeed INFINITE, all our finite attempts to describe Him are, pretty much by definition, wrong. And, because we were each created to be unique, our individual understanding, and therefore our individual paths are also unique. No religion can package your path to God. However, some will do a better job of providing “tracks” that lead in a direction that is right for us, than others. It is not so simple as right/wrong, true/false.

When I say “lying”, I’m referring to any religion that claims exclusivity to the truth. There are as many paths to God as there are mortals to walk them. (you simply would not believe how “crooked” my crazy path has been!)

How do you know what is true? Truth is available to every seeker. However, it will come in very different packages! (we are very different people) This is where we hop from the “nest” of organized religions, and take flight as individuals. Fear not, your wings were designed to hold you as you soar ever upwards on this, life’s greatest adventure.

Bro Dave