Is man inherently flawed?

[sickles]

im just curious.

for christians, this is likely a yes (original sin)
for buddhists, same (we are born uneducated to the dharma)
most others view you as flawed until you join, and since you arent born with membership, you are born flawed until a ceremony takes place (baptism or some other similar mechanism.)

[bernee51]

im just curious.

for christians, this is likely a yes (original sin)
for buddhists, same (we are born uneducated to the dharma)
most others view you as flawed until you join, and since you arent born with membership, you are born flawed until a ceremony takes place (baptism or some other similar mechanism.)

Not unless you count a propensity toward self delusion as a flaw.

Personally, as I hold the universe (and we are part of it) to be emergent, it is only as it can be. Anything that is only as it can be is perfect.

[ChaosBorders]

im just curious.

for christians, this is likely a yes (original sin)
for buddhists, same (we are born uneducated to the dharma)
most others view you as flawed until you join, and since you arent born with membership, you are born flawed until a ceremony takes place (baptism or some other similar mechanism.)

Yes, though I would say our flaws are an important part of who we are.

[sickles]

on what basis do you believe that man is inherently flawed? what evidence are you looking at ?

[ChaosBorders]

on what basis do you believe that man is inherently flawed? what evidence are you looking at ?

Can you do everything perfectly?

[sickles]

on what basis do you believe that man is inherently flawed? what evidence are you looking at ?

Can you do everything perfectly?

I assume you mean you and i should look to our personal experiences to find out if man is inherently flawed? nherent means we are born with it. I cannot remember my birth, can you? Everything we experience is looked through the glasses of your assumptions that are taught as children and observed as children.

And you are looking to my life to find the answer of what people normally do without a specific cultural influence. I am influenced by this culture in pervasive ways, as is everyone else in my culture. That line of reasoning is flawed because it looks to one individual in one culture in an attempt to find out how all human beings behave.

Zoom out your scope abit.

[ChaosBorders]

on what basis do you believe that man is inherently flawed? what evidence are you looking at ?

Can you do everything perfectly?

I assume you mean you and i should look to our personal experiences to find out if man is inherently flawed? nherent means we are born with it. I cannot remember my birth, can you? Everything we experience is looked through the glasses of your assumptions that are taught as children and observed as children.

And you are looking to my life to find the answer of what people normally do without a specific cultural influence. I am influenced by this culture in pervasive ways, as is everyone else in my culture. That line of reasoning is flawed because it looks to one individual in one culture in an attempt to find out how all human beings behave.

Zoom out your scope abit.

Inherently would indeed mean we are born with it, which implies we are genetically flawed. Unless your genetics give you the inherent ability to do everything perfectly by every definition of the word perfect, then by the definition of flawed meaning an imperfection or weakness, you are inherently flawed (as is every human).

[sickles]

on what basis do you believe that man is inherently flawed? what evidence are you looking at ?

Can you do everything perfectly?

I assume you mean you and i should look to our personal experiences to find out if man is inherently flawed? nherent means we are born with it. I cannot remember my birth, can you? Everything we experience is looked through the glasses of your assumptions that are taught as children and observed as children.

And you are looking to my life to find the answer of what people normally do without a specific cultural influence. I am influenced by this culture in pervasive ways, as is everyone else in my culture. That line of reasoning is flawed because it looks to one individual in one culture in an attempt to find out how all human beings behave.

Zoom out your scope abit.

Inherently would indeed mean we are born with it, which implies we are genetically flawed. Unless your genetics give you the inherent ability to do everything perfectly by every definition of the word perfect, then by the definition of flawed meaning an imperfection or weakness, you are inherently flawed (as is every human).

not so fast, we still havent established the man is inherently flawed. Im taking flawed to mean "to posses undesirable, negative traits". If we use your definition, then every living thing is flawed because nothing is successfull all the time. A lack of success isnt a flaw, its an outcome. And if nothing can meet your definition of perfection, why use it at all? Besides, being flawed isnt a lack of perfection, and being perfect is objective. what is considered perfect greatly varies from one individual to another. And even using your definition, man still isnt special, because this is a trait that all living things posses. Maybe i should say, "do you think man is especially flawed when compared to the rest of the living community", but thats not as snappy.

As to perfection, we are perfect. We are perfectly suited to do what we were built to do. Gorillas are perfect in what they do, as are lions, wombats, and platypus. They and us were perfected through hundreds of millions of years of trial and error. If it wasnt perfect, it wouldnt have lasted through that process. Millions of years is along time for imperfections to be weeded out. So ill ask again, on what basis do you assume that every human is born more flawed than the rest? That every human is born greedy, selfish (beyond the selfishness other species i.e. survival), murderous, and cruel is what you are saying. So, prove it.

[ChaosBorders]

not so fast, we still havent established the man is inherently flawed. Im taking flawed to mean "to posses undesirable, negative traits".

You should have stated that definition in the OP. Even using your definition, 'undesirable' and 'negative' are generally subjective qualities, so it comes down to "I think they're flawed, you don't".

If we use your definition, then every living thing is flawed because nothing is successfull all the time.

What's your point?

A lack of success isnt a flaw, its an outcome.

Flaw: An imperfection http://www.thefreedictionary.com/flaw

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perfect
Perfection: b. satisfying all requirements

Success: A measure of succeeding (same site).

Succeeding: b : to attain a desired object or end (Same site).

If you are not able to attain a desired object or end, you have failed to satisfy the requirements needed to attain that desired object or end. If you fail to satisfy all of the requirements, you are imperfect, and if you are imperfect then you are flawed.

And if nothing can meet your definition of perfection, why use it at all?

Because you didn't restrict your definitions in the OP like you should have. Besides, I personally define God as perfect, so not exactly nothing that can meet my definition (which is the dictionary's...).

Besides, being flawed isnt a lack of perfection, and being perfect is objective.

Definition one of perfection: 1 : the quality or state of being perfect: as a : freedom from fault or defect : flawlessness. (Same site as above)

If you lack flawlessness, you are flawed, so yes being flawed is a lack of perfection.

what is considered perfect greatly varies from one individual to another. And even using your definition, man still isnt special, because this is a trait that all living things posses. Maybe i should say, "do you think man is especially flawed when compared to the rest of the living community", but thats not as snappy.

Yes, if you meant something other than what you put in the OP, you should have taken the time to clarify such as well as outline the definitions you wanted to use.

As to perfection, we are perfect. We are perfectly suited to do what we were built to do.

And what, exactly, were we 'built' to do? Not that it particularly matters, since the question only asks whether we are flawed or not without specifying a definition, all I have to do to prove it in the affirmative is show we fail even a single definition of perfection, thus have an imperfection and meet the definition of flawed.

Gorillas are perfect in what they do, as are lions, wombats, and platypus. They and us were perfected through hundreds of millions of years of trial and error. If it wasnt perfect, it wouldnt have lasted through that process.

If you are referring to evolution, unless it has mysteriously ceased to occur, the process of 'trial and error' is still ongoing, thus indicating we are still not 'perfect'.

Millions of years is along time for imperfections to be weeded out.

And a long time for more imperfections to be introduced.

So ill ask again, on what basis do you assume that every human is born more flawed than the rest?

The rest of what? I never indicated that humans were any more flawed than anything else, only that they were flawed.

That every human is born greedy, selfish (beyond the selfishness other species i.e. survival), murderous, and cruel is what you are saying. So, prove it.

I never said any of that at all. If that is how you choose to define flawed, you should have done so in the OP. You should not put words in my mouth just because you failed to specify what you meant. Perhaps you should make a new thread, with an OP that actually asks what you want it to and defines words as you intend them to be used.

[Flail]

Depends upon how you define 'flawed'. I would say that man has inherent desires and needs and how and in what society he fulfills them will determine the extent and nature of his 'flaws'. IMO,the most egregious 'flaw' is the inability or unwillingness to doubt and think and the propensity of man to accept things without evidence and to be led around by the ears to please others.