Predestination vs. Free Will

[Nirvana-Eld]

My understanding is this.

(I'm going to say God "is" for this topic to end confusion.
God is omnicient. He knows how everything is going to turn out. So wether we like it or not, God predestened everything. So in what way do we have a free will and does it even count in the face of obvious predestination? That's it in a nutshell.

[harvey1]

I'm going to say God "is" for this topic to end confusion. God is omnicient. He knows how everything is going to turn out. So wether we like it or not, God predestened everything. So in what way do we have a free will and does it even count in the face of obvious predestination? That's it in a nutshell.

There's two issues. One, in actuality the passage of time is an illusion as Einstein believed that General Relativity indicated. That is, we can time travel to a future 'now' just like we can time travel to a past 'now.' All of these nows are all happening. God sees all nows at once. That is, all the events that occur, occur infinitely fast such that each moment in time happens at the same instant all the other moments of time are happening. Therefore, it is easy for God to know what will happen in our future since that moment is now for God.

The second issue is this. The effect that stems from a cause logically succeeds the cause. The universe, including humans, are free to choose certain paths since the cause for choosing a particular path can be a free act of choosing by definition of it being a "choice." That is, acts of choice are not mediated by anything other than the self-identity of the person or object that is doing the choosing. (By the way, there's no such thing as being "free" to being something other than what you are--i.e., your identity. Such a concept would be meaningless.) Hence, free will is compatible with even a deterministic universe.

So, in summary, two issues factor into free will. Everything happening at once, and everything having causes which are free acts of choicing (i.e., if the act is a choice, then it is necessarily a free choice). God knows what we will do because we have already made those choices, and those acts are free choices because, as a choice, we are the only one who can make them.

[mrmufin]

God is omnicient. He knows how everything is going to turn out. So wether we like it or not, God predestened everything.

If that was not the case, how would we know?

So in what way do we have a free will and does it even count in the face of obvious predestination?

At 8:40 PM I am considering dessert. I peruse the dessert menu and narrow it down to either the creme brulee or the tiramisu. If, at 8:43 PM, I'm still undecided and God already knows that I will order the creme brulee, then any choice on my part is only an illusion. I can only order what God already knows I will order.

Problem is, it really seems like I'm the one making the dessert decision. Just like it really seemed like I was the one who ruled out the other dessert menu options and narrowed down the choice to either the creme brulee or the tiramisu. And it sure seemed like I was the one who picked out the shirt that I put on a few hours earlier. If something else knows every decision of mine in advance, how could I tell? Why should I even be held accountable for my actions?

Regards,
mrmufin

[McCulloch]

At 8:40 PM I am considering dessert. I peruse the dessert menu and narrow it down to either the creme brulee or the tiramisu. If, at 8:43 PM, I'm still undecided and God already knows that I will order the creme brulee, then any choice on my part is only an illusion. I can only order what God already knows I will order. Problem is, it really seems like I'm the one making the dessert decision. Just like it really seemed like I was the one who ruled out the other dessert menu options and narrowed down the choice to either the creme brulee or the tiramisu. And it sure seemed like I was the one who picked out the shirt that I put on a few hours earlier. If something else knows every decision of mine in advance, how could I tell? Why should I even be held accountable for my actions?

Predestination and Free will can both be true. Just because the outcome of your free decision could be predetermined, does not change the fact that you did, in fact, make the decision freely. You did not know what the choice would be that you made and from your own perspective, you made the choice freely. From the larger universal perspective, your choice could have been, in theory been accurately predicted and was therefore deterministic. If you don't want it, I'll have the tiramisu, thank you.

[harvey1]

t really seems like I'm the one making the dessert decision. Just like it really seemed like I was the one who ruled out the other dessert menu options and narrowed down the choice to either the creme brulee or the tiramisu. And it sure seemed like I was the one who picked out the shirt that I put on a few hours earlier. If something else knows every decision of mine in advance, how could I tell? Why should I even be held accountable for my actions?

Let's say that souls are similar to quantum wavefunctions. Then, in that case, there's a wavefunction "out there" that identifies Mr. Muffin in all possible worlds that your wavefunction (soul) is exemplified (i.e., in any one of the worlds). This wavefunction would "fit" in a world like a piece inside a jigsaw puzzle. If such a piece "fit," then the exact geometry of the piece (i.e., all our decisions) would be known in advance (i.e., from our frame of reference of right now) since the mere fact that we are "in" a specific world already means that our decisions are known to God. God, who exists outside of time, already sees and knows our geometry, and knows which jigsaw puzzle worlds we belong to.

Notice, in this scenario that your wavefunction is your identity. We make the decisions that we do because that is who we are. We cannot choose who we ultimately are, but we don't know who we ultimately are, and the only way to establish what we are ultimately is by choosing. This is free will since we have to assume with a principle of charity (toward ourselves) that we could ultimately be a saint, and therefore it is our duty to make the choices that a saint would ultimately make. A saint chooses to be saved, therefore it is our duty to seek salvation. Failure to follow sainthood would be the free choice that we make that defines us as an unrighteous individual. This is no great surprise to God, since God already knew that we were a Judas (e.g.) and simply allowed us to exist in that world knowing full well that our choices are based on an identity that would lead us toward evil.

[Curious]

There's two issues. One, in actuality the passage of time is an illusion as Einstein believed that General Relativity indicated. That is, we can time travel to a future 'now' just like we can time travel to a past 'now.' All of these nows are all happening. God sees all nows at once. That is, all the events that occur, occur infinitely fast such that each moment in time happens at the same instant all the other moments of time are happening. Therefore, it is easy for God to know what will happen in our future since that moment is now for God.

Congratulations Harvey1 on hammering the final nail into the coffin of the so called omniscience/omnipotence "paradox". As you rightly say, God's will and action are, in fact, extempore. Regarding our own free will, I might post an observation at a later date, I haven't decided yet.

[stevencarrwork]

Predestination and Free will can both be true. Just because the outcome of your free decision could be predetermined, does not change the fact that you did, in fact, make the decision freely. You did not know what the choice would be that you made and from your own perspective, you made the choice freely.

So what if I made the choice freely?

Take 2 logically possible sets of circumstances.

1) I am sitting down to breakfast in an hotel at 8:30 am on Wed. 2/11/2005, and a waiter is asking me ‘Tea or Coffee’, and God has infallible knowledge that I will choose tea.

2) I am sitting down to breakfast in an hotel at 8:30 am on Wed. 2/11/2005, and a waiter is asking me ‘Tea or Coffee’, and God has infallible knowledge that I will choose coffee.


Clearly, I can conceive of both sets of circumstances, and they are both
possible, and they are clearly different to each other. There cannot be a world in which both sets of circumstances are true.

In the first, I will freely choose one particular way. I will choose tea.

In the second set of circumstances, I will freely choose coffee.

Of course, my choices are different in the two sets of circumstances, but if you agree that free agents will choose differently in different circumstances, this is not a problem.

Did God's knowledge cause me to choose one particular way - either tea or coffee? That is incoherent and based on a lack of understanding of what 'freely' choosing means.

I cannot deny that in one world I freely chose tea and in the other I freely chose coffee.

So far so good.

Now all we have to do is ask 'Who created the world?'

Remember , those sets of circumstances are true in different worlds. There is no world in which they are both true.

God can decide to create the world where set of circumstances 1 applies , or God can decide to create the world where set of circumstances 2 applies.

So, in reality, it is God who gets to decide which free will decisions I make.

I choose freely, but God creates the particular world in which I make that choice.

And he decides which world that is.

God can, of course, do that.

Take these two sets of circumstances

1) I am sitting down to breakfast in an hotel at 8:30 am on Wed. 2/11/2005, and one particular uranium atom randomly decays at that moment.

2) I am sitting down to breakfast in an hotel at 8:30 am on Wed. 2/11/2005, and that particular uranium atom randomly does not decay at that moment.

In one possible world , one uranium atom will decay before another.

In a different possible world, the order of decay will be reversed.

Uranium atoms decay randomly. God does not have to go around choosing at what particular time, particular uranium atoms decay.

Nevertheless, for reasons best known to him, he has chosen to create a world in which uranium atoms decay in a certain order - an order known to him when he chose to create our world, rather than create a world where the order of decay was different.

It is the same with free will. We choose freely , and God decides which free will choices will actually happen.

To give an analogy, God could create a vast library of books. Each book describes a certain universe that God could create.

In each book would be recorded the free will choices we would make in that universe.

Many books would be identical up to a certain point in time, and then diverge, depending upon what free will decisions could be made at that point in time.

It is a bit like Borges Library of Babel. Every single free will choice that could conceivably be made is in one book or another.

God does not write the books. The books simply record all the free will choices that could possibly be made.

But God does decide which book to 'read' ie it is he creates the universe which corresponds to one of the books.

So because God is the creator of the universe, as well as being omniscient, freewill is rather a misnomer. One of the books will record my possible free will decision to write this post. A different book will record my possible free will decision not to write this post.

It is God who has chosen which book to 'read'.

[McCulloch]

Free will is an illusion. We live in a determinist and determined universe. You believe that you are making a freely determined decision, but the outcome of that decision, while unknown to you, is already knowable. So, from your own point-of-view, the point of view of being ignorant of your future and current decisions, you are free to decide. You are therefore responsible for your decisions.

[stevencarrwork]

Free will is an illusion. We live in a determinist and determined universe. You believe that you are making a freely determined decision, but the outcome of that decision, while unknown to you, is already knowable. So, from your own point-of-view, the point of view of being ignorant of your future and current decisions, you are free to decide. You are therefore responsible for your decisions.

Free will is not an 'illusion'. I really can choose between tea or coffee, and it is I who decide.

But determinism and free will are quite compatible. 'I' decide, but I am part of the universe, so there is no contradiction between saying that I decide what I do and that the universe decides what I do.

Nobody has yet shown that we live in a deterministic universe.

Personally, I doubt it. I believe there is genuine randomness in the universe. Of course, I could be wrong.

Randomness, by itself though, does not mean that there are two possible futures. There can only be one future. Being in two futures would just be confusing. For one thing, the films with Michael J. Fox would have to be called 'Back to the Futures'

[Cephus]

Real omniscience and real free will are completely incompatible. If someone knows, without a doubt, what you will do, then you do not have true free will because you are not free to choose something that the other individual doesn't already know. You can't choose "tea" instead of "coffee" if "coffee" is predetermined. Even if you don't know you're being controlled, you only have the illusion of free will.

Once you plug an omniscient entity, unbound by time, into the equation, any real free will goes right out the window.