Deep thinking

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Waterfall
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Deep thinking

Post #1

Post by Waterfall »

Hello everybody

I have some questions for atheist and theist.

Why do atheist put children into the world?

Nobody wants to be born without legs. Nobody wants a terrible disease. Nobody wants to be murdered.

But all these things happens in this world.

If atheist say that there isn't anything after death, then they are undermining there own ability to put children into the world, because there is nobody (intelligent) who wants to be born into that kind of world.

Have atheist thought about that?

I don´t think Christopher Hitchens (R.I.P.) or Richard Dawkins have thought about that...

Now (some) theist also have a problem, because why do they put children into the world, if God is sending them to a eternal hell?

I think the christian worldview is very strange, because if I put 10 children into the world, then God will send 9 of them to a eternal hell.

Very strange and not a good reason for me to put 10 children into the world.

Maybe I only should put one child into the world...but then I won't be doing Gods will...because God needs 10 children...because 9 have to go to a eternal hell...because that is what the good book say...well...what shall I do?

If I only put 1 child into the world then I destroy this book...because this book is based on me putting many children into the world.

Isn't it?

In fact we could blow the world apart today and the book would have failed completely...but why should we blow the world apart...just to prove a point.

That would be insane...but then again...we are going to die anyway...so why not go out whit a big bang...and stop the madness on earth.

Why do we keep on putting children into the world? Don´t we know the price for that action? How many children will suffer? Are we willing to pay the price for a day more on earth? Who are selling life? Who are buying life?

Do you wanner be born into a world where there is no heaven...where there is no place to put your dead parents? Your dead wife/hosbond...Your dead children...Your dead friends...Yourself.

Don´t we have a good reason to talk about a soul?

Maybe people like Putin don´t have a good reason to talk about a soul...maybe a soul is a scaring thought for them...because they have a lot to answar for.

So there are also a good reason not to talk about a soul...

But here we all should remember that God have a great plan for us all.

Maybe Putin haven´t heard about the great plan...justice...compassion...understanding...forgivenes...love...development...reincarnation.

Lets talk about reincarnation...because I don´t think we have got this right...are the soul created? How many souls are there? How many bodies are there? Are there more souls than bodies?

Now we are back to some kind of strange thinking...because every time there is created a body...then a soul have to fall down from heaven...and so we are in control of that fall...because we can stop putting bodies into the world.

Do the soul fall down from heaven or do it chose to come down from heaven or do it start from earth and then is on a road to heaven? Or? Where did Jesus come from? Heaven? Where did Hitler come from? Hell?

A thought on all this helltalk...because if God (the almighty) have empty the hellworld for resident, then why are we still talking about a hell? Maybe there was a hellworld at one point in time? Maybe it is gone now? Maybe Satan have turn around? Maybe Satan is asking for forgivenes? How great is God?

Who created the human body? Why don´t animals have a soul? When did God connect a soul to the human body? And why? What is the good news? That we have got it all roung? What is the real story about life on earth? Where do we come from? Where are we going? What should we tell our children? See you in heaven? Who is writting the story on earth?

Together we can change the world...but how? What are we going to teach our children? Be a good son/daughter? Well...maybe we should be a good father/mother first?

What kind of world are we putting children into?

Lets say I put 3 women and 6 men on the planet...then I have created a problem for them, because what are they going to do? 1 women and 2 men...is that aloud? What shall they do?

Just thinking out loud...

Here at the end of all this thinking I have to say that my english aint to good, so I hope you will bear with me on this.

And merry christmas to you all

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Post #121

Post by Divine Insight »

Waterfall wrote: Because I don´t consider the bible to be an authority on Jesus.

Thats why I am pointing to this book.
You're dead in the water right there. There's no point in me even reading the rest of your post.

What you are asking me to believe is that the Hebrew Bible is either totally irrelevant, or an extremely failed attempt by God and Jesus to communicate effectively with mankind.

And now you are asking me to believe that some book written after 1908 by a medium who claims to have had a divine revelation from God holds the "Real Truth". And this "Real Truth" continues to point back to Jesus as somehow being important.

If you can't see the problems with that I just don't know what to tell you.

What you are pointing to is an obvious scam. You may not be able to see this, but it necessarily has to be so. For this book you are pointing to to be truthful then both Jesus and Yahweh necessarily had to be the most inept deities that ever existed.

So it doesn't matter what is in the book you are pointing to. It might have the most attractive explanations that appear to you to make sense. But the fact of the matter is that it can't be making any sense if it claims that Jesus is important. Because that would then necessarily require that Jesus was also a gross failure as well as the Father God he has been associated with.

So there's no way this scam you have fallen into could be true. It might be very "attractive" to you (most scams often are), but it clearly cannot be true.

In order for it to be true, both Yahweh and Jesus would need to have been completely inept failures.

YOU TELL ME THE ANSWER TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:

Why did the God of the Bible not get HIS STORY right in Genesis the first time? Why would it have taken over 4000+ years to finally get his story out correctly through a medium in 1908?

And why was Christ himself such an extreme failure in this whole scenario as well?


Apparently the book you are reading is nothing more than someone's personal views on how they WISH things could be. They may have even convinced themselves that their own imagination has somehow been guided by divine revelation. That's not an unusual scenario. There are many people who can't recognize the difference between reality and their own imagination.

You have the author of this Book having God send Jesus as his Son to Earth to teach humans something. That's already a problem because that implies that the God himself was too inept to have taught humans what he wanted them to know from the get go. The whole scenario rides on the assumption that the original creator God is an absolute buffoon.

I'm sure it's a quite convincing scam, but in the end, that's all it can be.

It might have even had a shot of being true had the medium claim to have had a revelation from a higher consciousness that has nothing to do with the Bible or Jesus. At least in that scenario there would be no reason why the higher consciousness would have had to have failed prior to that communication. But claiming that this revelation came from the God of the bible, or Jesus, blows it clean out of the water right there. The only way it could be true is if both the God of the Bible and Jesus were absolutely inept in their efforts to communicate with humans thousands of years ago.

So you're barking up the wrong tree. There cannot be anything to this. I'm sorry to have to inform you, but you've been taken in by a scam. It might even be a well-intention scam, but a necessary scam none the less. The medium who wrote the book may even believe their own imagination. So the author will be convinced that he or she is speaking "Truth". But you can clearly see that it can't be so because both Yahweh and Jesus would need to be complete failures for this book to be true.
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Post #122

Post by William »

[Replying to post 121 by Divine Insight]

It is quite easy to comprehend really.

The God of the bible is not inept but is limited. The limits are self imposed for the purpose of discovery.

The gods (see Genesis) are using the human form to settle an argument of sorts. A family feud of sorts.
This isn't so obvious in the bible stories because those stories are specific to the human aspect in this argument.

The argument revolves around the subject "Does GOD actually exist" because the gods came to a point in their existence where this question became relevant to them.

The answer of course was not obvious, and some of the gods thought it was a pointless question which somehow even threatened to take away their own positions as gods if an answer could be discovered and turned out to be 'Yes'.
Thus, 'the devil you know' as it were and with that, 'ignorance is bliss.'

However, there was some dispute as to the true nature of a god in relation to behaviour and what might or might not be permissible.

Again, some of the gods did not think that was relevant either as they were gods and none could prevent them doing exactly as they wanted.

This is why the universe was created. To place a god into it and see what would happen.

That was then and this is now and whether we like it or not, god is not perfect but sure is clever about it.

Certainly not inept. The game is on and the rules are simple. Can a human being find GOD among the gods?

Those gods who say that it is an irrelevant question take the side of trying to prevent any humans from finding that out, while the others take the side of supporting the humans rights to investigate.

This 'taking sides' is not always influencing a human through direct interference by either side that the gods argue from - more often than not it is simply a matter of observation with a few tweaks here and there as agreed to - by all parties concerned.

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Post #123

Post by Divine Insight »

[Replying to post 122 by William]

Write your ideas up in a book. Waterfall might like to read it. :mrgreen:

In the meantime on a philosophy forum all you are doing is stating nothing more than your guess at what you think "gods" might be up to. :D

I can do that too. ;)

But we're not supposed to guess in Philosophy, we're suppose to REASON.

In fact, when it comes to stories about an imaginary "God", I think the Buddhist have written the best story yet. Or at least the most believable one. At least their story doesn't contain any deadly self-contradictions.

You say:
The gods (see Genesis) are using the human form to settle an argument of sorts. A family feud of sorts.
This isn't so obvious in the bible stories because those stories are specific to the human aspect in this argument.
Your story already has the Gods "feuding" and using humans as guinea pigs in an experiment to settle their arguments. That already reeks of unethical behavior on the part of the "gods".

Also you seem to be implying that this is "Biblical" since you say (see Genesis). That would be more fitting for the Theology, Doctrine and Dogma forum wouldn't it?

Sounds like you intend to make a case that the Bible supports your God stories.

I wonder, do you include the Christian Christ as part of your story? Or do you end up staying with the original Judaism? Or maybe go off with Islam? Or some other direction entirely?

In any case, since you're pointing to Genesis you're already suggesting that you're using the Hebrew God myths as your primary source of information. Or at least your "Starting Point" since Genesis claims to be describing "The Beginning".

You'll need to write a book. I don't see how your going to convince anyone of such a wildly different version of the Bible by just posting on a forum.
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Post #124

Post by Monta »

[Replying to post 121 by Divine Insight]


"And why was Christ himself such an extreme failure in this whole scenario as well?"


"Apparently the book you are reading is nothing more than someone's personal views on how they WISH things could be."


The judgement you pass on the book - 'someone's personal views on how they WISH things could be' fits very well with your above statement that Christ was extreme failure is your personal view how you WISH things to be.

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Post #125

Post by William »

Divine Insight wrote: [Replying to post 122 by William]


You say:
The gods (see Genesis) are using the human form to settle an argument of sorts. A family feud of sorts.
This isn't so obvious in the bible stories because those stories are specific to the human aspect in this argument.
Your story already has the Gods "feuding" and using humans as guinea pigs in an experiment to settle their arguments. That already reeks of unethical behavior on the part of the "gods".
Well strictly speaking, human forms are what the gods are using as a means of seeing if settlement on the issue might be established.
The gods themselves play the part of being human. They animate the form by being the life within the form.

The 'family feud of sorts' is a metaphor for diversity of process.

Also you seem to be implying that this is "Biblical" since you say (see Genesis). That would be more fitting for the Theology, Doctrine and Dogma forum wouldn't it?
Maybe. But that seems to be the way the conversation between you and Waterfall has evolved, so maybe take your own advise?
Sounds like you intend to make a case that the Bible supports your God stories.
Something along the lines of;
"The theory itself is the combination
of other theories and belief systems which human beings are influenced by. "?
I wonder, do you include the Christian Christ as part of your story? Or do you end up staying with the original Judaism? Or maybe go off with Islam? Or some other direction entirely?
No doubt there is even a drop of Buddhism involved. What of it?
Last edited by William on Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #126

Post by Waterfall »

Divine Insight wrote:
Waterfall wrote: Because I don´t consider the bible to be an authority on Jesus.

Thats why I am pointing to this book.
You're dead in the water right there. There's no point in me even reading the rest of your post.

What you are asking me to believe is that the Hebrew Bible is either totally irrelevant, or an extremely failed attempt by God and Jesus to communicate effectively with mankind.

And now you are asking me to believe that some book written after 1908 by a medium who claims to have had a divine revelation from God holds the "Real Truth". And this "Real Truth" continues to point back to Jesus as somehow being important.

If you can't see the problems with that I just don't know what to tell you.

What you are pointing to is an obvious scam. You may not be able to see this, but it necessarily has to be so. For this book you are pointing to to be truthful then both Jesus and Yahweh necessarily had to be the most inept deities that ever existed.

So it doesn't matter what is in the book you are pointing to. It might have the most attractive explanations that appear to you to make sense. But the fact of the matter is that it can't be making any sense if it claims that Jesus is important. Because that would then necessarily require that Jesus was also a gross failure as well as the Father God he has been associated with.

So there's no way this scam you have fallen into could be true. It might be very "attractive" to you (most scams often are), but it clearly cannot be true.

In order for it to be true, both Yahweh and Jesus would need to have been completely inept failures.

YOU TELL ME THE ANSWER TO THE FOLLOWING QUESTION:

Why did the God of the Bible not get HIS STORY right in Genesis the first time? Why would it have taken over 4000+ years to finally get his story out correctly through a medium in 1908?

And why was Christ himself such an extreme failure in this whole scenario as well?


Apparently the book you are reading is nothing more than someone's personal views on how they WISH things could be. They may have even convinced themselves that their own imagination has somehow been guided by divine revelation. That's not an unusual scenario. There are many people who can't recognize the difference between reality and their own imagination.

You have the author of this Book having God send Jesus as his Son to Earth to teach humans something. That's already a problem because that implies that the God himself was too inept to have taught humans what he wanted them to know from the get go. The whole scenario rides on the assumption that the original creator God is an absolute buffoon.

I'm sure it's a quite convincing scam, but in the end, that's all it can be.

It might have even had a shot of being true had the medium claim to have had a revelation from a higher consciousness that has nothing to do with the Bible or Jesus. At least in that scenario there would be no reason why the higher consciousness would have had to have failed prior to that communication. But claiming that this revelation came from the God of the bible, or Jesus, blows it clean out of the water right there. The only way it could be true is if both the God of the Bible and Jesus were absolutely inept in their efforts to communicate with humans thousands of years ago.

So you're barking up the wrong tree. There cannot be anything to this. I'm sorry to have to inform you, but you've been taken in by a scam. It might even be a well-intention scam, but a necessary scam none the less. The medium who wrote the book may even believe their own imagination. So the author will be convinced that he or she is speaking "Truth". But you can clearly see that it can't be so because both Yahweh and Jesus would need to be complete failures for this book to be true.
What am I saying?

I have a book where somebody stole Jesus body from the grave and I have a book where nobody stole Jesus body from the grave.

Can both stories be true?

Is there any truth to the stories in the bible?

This book tells us how the stories about Jesus (the new testament) came to be.

I´m not saying that the bible (the old scriptures) has nothing to do with Jesus.

Let me point to this...

http://uk.vandrermodlyset.dk/m-a23.htm

And highlight this...
And when he heard that Jesus was near, he decided to see him and to speak with him.
And Joseph went forth from Jerusalem to meet Jesus.
But the Elder, the Servant of Darkness, followed him unseen upon this journey.
And the Elder sought to blot out the faint remembrance Joseph bore in his heart of the times that were before mankind; and when he stood before Jesus, his spirit knew him not.
But the spirit of Jesus knew his brother.
And Jesus said: "Brother, be welcome! Be with me and strive not against me."
Joseph wondered greatly at these words.
And after a pause, he said: "Truly, I am not against you, but you are against me. Yea, you strive against all of us, who are the true leaders of the people, and you stir the people against us. Tell me, by what right do you this?"
Jesus looked upon him, but he answered him not.
Then Joseph continued to speak.
And he said: "Many say that you are the Messiah; and are you the One we all await, then should you not strive against us. Then should you gather the people about you, that together we may break the heavy yoke of bondage. Then should you gather all the people about you, that together we may cast off the heavy burdens that the heathen have placed upon our shoulders. Yea, are you the Messiah, then should you come unto us, for then should we make you the leader of all the people, then should we array you with the purple robe and place you upon the Throne of David, that we might thus fulfil the words that were spoken unto us of the Messiah. And then should all the people bow down before you, and they should all obey your words."
And this...
But Jesus answered him and said: "Truly, I say unto you: I was not born unto the Earth to rule over mankind; for my Kingdom is not of this world. Truly, I say unto you: I have not come to gather the multitudes about me by force, I have not come to kill, nor have I come to cast out the strangers, nor to rob, nor to plunder. But I was sent unto the Earth to teach human beings to love one another, so as to bear witness to our Father's Justice and to lead them all unto His Kingdom."
What is this book pointing to? It is taking us back in time and showing us what happent...

Is there anything wrong in telling the truth about Jesus? Or Buddha? Or anybody else?

This book is not just about Jesus...

What is this book about?

It is saying that mankind was created 5 million years ago by the falling angels...it is saying that God (at a point in time and for a reason) conneted a soul to mankind...

Is this in any conflict with reality?

With regard to the bible...maybe the truth has been there? Who says the story about Adam and Eve is about mankind? Or what about Cain and Abel? Maybe the truth has been lost? Twisted? Misunderstood?

How is that possible? If you got the devil running around, then it should not be so hard to understand that things can get out of control...it is not everybody who have been out there seeking the truth...

And you have human beings to...

But now the devil has return (the lost son) and this book is the result of that return.

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Post #127

Post by William »

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Re: Deep thinking

Post #128

Post by amortalman »

[Replying to post 1 by Waterfall]

I think you've brought far too many questions for a single post as your namesake implies. My head is swimming. Personally, it would take me about 100 pages to even scratch the surface of what you've put on the table.

Nevertheless, you have posed some deep theological and philosophical questions and some questions that are, well, in my opinion very shallow and near meaningless.

I would like to respond briefly to a couple of points. I'll start with a few questions. Do you value your own life? Are you glad that you were born? I have to wonder! If you find some joy and pleasure in life certainly you would think others would, too.

Why do atheists bring children into the world? Do you really need an afterlife to appreciate this life? If this life is all there is, it is more than enough. I find many pleasures and wonderment in life without believing in the Heaven and Hell that the Bible espouses. Life is wonderful even with all the pains. There's beauty in life but sometimes you have to search for it.

The questions of whether Christians should bring children into the world is another matter. The Bible commands it. God said, "be fruitful and multiply." Then, Matthew 7:13 - 14 clearly says that many will be condemned and few will be saved. So, according to "God's word" most of the world's population past, present, and future will be condemned to Hell. If this is God's justice it horribly violates the very meaning of the word. So, when you are born, chances are you'll be one of the condemned from choosing the wrong religion, or having never heard of a religion, or because of unbelief.

I do hope you can get your many questions answered to your satisfaction. To me, the world is exactly the way it should be if there were no god(s). Naturalism answers many difficult questions of life the Bible only confuses. Of course, it raises a few questions of its own. But that's the spice of life. Discovery is a most beautiful thing.

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Re: Deep thinking

Post #129

Post by Divine Insight »

amortalman wrote: The questions of whether Christians should bring children into the world is another matter. The Bible commands it. God said, "be fruitful and multiply." Then, Matthew 7:13 - 14 clearly says that many will be condemned and few will be saved. So, according to "God's word" most of the world's population past, present, and future will be condemned to Hell. If this is God's justice it horribly violates the very meaning of the word. So, when you are born, chances are you'll be one of the condemned from choosing the wrong religion, or having never heard of a religion, or because of unbelief.
Don't forget, it won't just be those raised in the wrong religion, or those who never heard of Christianity, or those who don't believe in a God at all who will be condemned, but according to Christ there will also be quite a few believers who will actually believe in Jesus but not live up to Jesus' standards, and then Jesus will not recognize them.

So many devout Christians will evidently be damned as well. Belief in Jesus, or even thinking that he's your "savior" is no guaranteed that a person will be "saved".
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Re: Deep thinking

Post #130

Post by Monta »

[Replying to post 128 by amortalman]


"The questions of whether Christians should bring children into the world is another matter. The Bible commands it. God said, "be fruitful and multiply."

I think God has put it into our DNA and to make sure we do it,
He made it so we'd enjoy it.
You can't escape it; He is smarter than we.

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