Are you capable of putting children into the world?

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Waterfall
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Are you capable of putting children into the world?

Post #1

Post by Waterfall »

We know there are people who do not want a temporary life and that creates a problem...because how to sort them from the rest?

I do not think life is worth living if there is no afterlife...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Barbie

What kind of a story do people want to be a part of...your story? No afterlife? What do people want? Do we have to put children into the world before we can say what they want? Who wants to be a part of your story? Is it a good story? Why say yes to be a part of a bad story?



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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

Post #11

Post by Tcg »

Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:37 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:30 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:24 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:11 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:04 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:36 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:18 pm To have the knowledge that life is eternal is a great, great boon psychologically.
To possess that belief may be a boon to those who don't want to face the obvious reality that life is temporary, but that boon is evidence only that some feel better believing that which quite clearly isn't true. Life is temporary no matter how happy it makes some to pretend otherwise.


Tcg
There are those of us who have very much faced the apparent reality that life is ephemeral and did not go seeking any alternative. There are those of us who have turned so cynical and angry that they want nothing to do with eternal life. A belief in immortality, when it fructifies in someone's mind, may go against the whole grain of that person's psyche. Thus it is debatable which comes first: the "wishful thinking" that engenders said belief, or the acceptance of that belief through facts and evidence which then engenders a whole change of perspective, to one of positivity.... In the case of the hardened cynic, I think it is the latter. God comes, very often, to those who never sought him.

A change like that may first of all not be one of comfort, but of veneration. Veneration for reality. That reality is better than expected. Lo, my faith in truth has been restored.
Describing some as a "hardened cynic" does nothing to support your position and is of course nothing but an Ad Hominem.


Tcg
I am describing the psychology of a certain personality type. That's all. I'm simply pointing to the fact that many have already inured themselves to the idea that this life is all there is. They do not expect anything else, but then some experience persuades them otherwise. They didn't "desire" another conclusion, it just came to them.
Nope, you are using an Ad Hominem in a failed attempt to avoid supporting your claim.


Tcg
Honestly, I don't know what you are talking about. I'm not convinced anyhow that all people who come to the conclusion that life is eternal auto-deceive themselves. Though I can see why that might be plausible for some skeptics. You haven't supported that claim yourself, in my view.
Now you are accusing me of being a skeptic. Do you have anything other than Ad Hominem to rely on?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

Post #12

Post by Dimmesdale »

Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:42 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:37 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:30 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:24 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:11 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:04 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:36 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:18 pm To have the knowledge that life is eternal is a great, great boon psychologically.
To possess that belief may be a boon to those who don't want to face the obvious reality that life is temporary, but that boon is evidence only that some feel better believing that which quite clearly isn't true. Life is temporary no matter how happy it makes some to pretend otherwise.


Tcg
There are those of us who have very much faced the apparent reality that life is ephemeral and did not go seeking any alternative. There are those of us who have turned so cynical and angry that they want nothing to do with eternal life. A belief in immortality, when it fructifies in someone's mind, may go against the whole grain of that person's psyche. Thus it is debatable which comes first: the "wishful thinking" that engenders said belief, or the acceptance of that belief through facts and evidence which then engenders a whole change of perspective, to one of positivity.... In the case of the hardened cynic, I think it is the latter. God comes, very often, to those who never sought him.

A change like that may first of all not be one of comfort, but of veneration. Veneration for reality. That reality is better than expected. Lo, my faith in truth has been restored.
Describing some as a "hardened cynic" does nothing to support your position and is of course nothing but an Ad Hominem.


Tcg
I am describing the psychology of a certain personality type. That's all. I'm simply pointing to the fact that many have already inured themselves to the idea that this life is all there is. They do not expect anything else, but then some experience persuades them otherwise. They didn't "desire" another conclusion, it just came to them.
Nope, you are using an Ad Hominem in a failed attempt to avoid supporting your claim.


Tcg
Honestly, I don't know what you are talking about. I'm not convinced anyhow that all people who come to the conclusion that life is eternal auto-deceive themselves. Though I can see why that might be plausible for some skeptics. You haven't supported that claim yourself, in my view.
Now you are accusing me of being a skeptic. Do you have anything other than Ad Hominem to rely on?


Tcg
How are you not a skeptic if you think believing in eternal life is always indicative of running from reality?

I don't see the proof, personally.

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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

Post #13

Post by Tcg »

Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:47 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:42 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:37 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:30 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:24 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:11 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:04 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:36 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:18 pm To have the knowledge that life is eternal is a great, great boon psychologically.
To possess that belief may be a boon to those who don't want to face the obvious reality that life is temporary, but that boon is evidence only that some feel better believing that which quite clearly isn't true. Life is temporary no matter how happy it makes some to pretend otherwise.


Tcg
There are those of us who have very much faced the apparent reality that life is ephemeral and did not go seeking any alternative. There are those of us who have turned so cynical and angry that they want nothing to do with eternal life. A belief in immortality, when it fructifies in someone's mind, may go against the whole grain of that person's psyche. Thus it is debatable which comes first: the "wishful thinking" that engenders said belief, or the acceptance of that belief through facts and evidence which then engenders a whole change of perspective, to one of positivity.... In the case of the hardened cynic, I think it is the latter. God comes, very often, to those who never sought him.

A change like that may first of all not be one of comfort, but of veneration. Veneration for reality. That reality is better than expected. Lo, my faith in truth has been restored.
Describing some as a "hardened cynic" does nothing to support your position and is of course nothing but an Ad Hominem.


Tcg
I am describing the psychology of a certain personality type. That's all. I'm simply pointing to the fact that many have already inured themselves to the idea that this life is all there is. They do not expect anything else, but then some experience persuades them otherwise. They didn't "desire" another conclusion, it just came to them.
Nope, you are using an Ad Hominem in a failed attempt to avoid supporting your claim.


Tcg
Honestly, I don't know what you are talking about. I'm not convinced anyhow that all people who come to the conclusion that life is eternal auto-deceive themselves. Though I can see why that might be plausible for some skeptics. You haven't supported that claim yourself, in my view.
Now you are accusing me of being a skeptic. Do you have anything other than Ad Hominem to rely on?


Tcg
How are you not a skeptic if you think believing in eternal life is always indicative of running from reality?

I don't see the proof, personally.
I don't see the proof either given that you've provided none to support your accusation.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

Post #14

Post by Dimmesdale »

Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:50 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:47 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:42 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:37 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:30 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:24 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:11 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:04 pm
Tcg wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:36 pm
Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:18 pm To have the knowledge that life is eternal is a great, great boon psychologically.
To possess that belief may be a boon to those who don't want to face the obvious reality that life is temporary, but that boon is evidence only that some feel better believing that which quite clearly isn't true. Life is temporary no matter how happy it makes some to pretend otherwise.


Tcg
There are those of us who have very much faced the apparent reality that life is ephemeral and did not go seeking any alternative. There are those of us who have turned so cynical and angry that they want nothing to do with eternal life. A belief in immortality, when it fructifies in someone's mind, may go against the whole grain of that person's psyche. Thus it is debatable which comes first: the "wishful thinking" that engenders said belief, or the acceptance of that belief through facts and evidence which then engenders a whole change of perspective, to one of positivity.... In the case of the hardened cynic, I think it is the latter. God comes, very often, to those who never sought him.

A change like that may first of all not be one of comfort, but of veneration. Veneration for reality. That reality is better than expected. Lo, my faith in truth has been restored.
Describing some as a "hardened cynic" does nothing to support your position and is of course nothing but an Ad Hominem.


Tcg
I am describing the psychology of a certain personality type. That's all. I'm simply pointing to the fact that many have already inured themselves to the idea that this life is all there is. They do not expect anything else, but then some experience persuades them otherwise. They didn't "desire" another conclusion, it just came to them.
Nope, you are using an Ad Hominem in a failed attempt to avoid supporting your claim.


Tcg
Honestly, I don't know what you are talking about. I'm not convinced anyhow that all people who come to the conclusion that life is eternal auto-deceive themselves. Though I can see why that might be plausible for some skeptics. You haven't supported that claim yourself, in my view.
Now you are accusing me of being a skeptic. Do you have anything other than Ad Hominem to rely on?


Tcg
How are you not a skeptic if you think believing in eternal life is always indicative of running from reality?

I don't see the proof, personally.
I don't see the proof either given that you've provided none to support your accusation.


Tcg
I'm not proving anything one way or the other. All I'm saying is that there are some people who come to the conclusion that there is more than this life, and that they may be hostile to the notion initially. How they come around is the question.

I think that, philosophically, the best position to have, if you are not a preaching theist, is to remain agnostic whether people are "hiding from reality" or facing reality head on. In a sense it is an ad hominem to question people's conclusions and say they are hiding. That that is their stance: reality denial. That is accusing a lot of people of a very serious fault, I think.

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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

Post #15

Post by Tcg »

Dimmesdale wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:56 pm
I'm not proving anything one way or the other.
On that we agree. In fact you haven't even attempt to provide verifiable evidence of your claims.


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

Post #16

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Waterfall in post #11]
I do not think life is worth living if there is no afterlife...
I find that quite sad, personally.
Do we have to put children into the world before we can say what they want?
In today's world, it seems selfish to do so.
Why say yes to be a part of a bad story?
Indeed. But why do we think every story would be bad?

Intriguing questions overall :approve:

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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

Post #17

Post by Waterfall »

nobspeople wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 12:40 pm [Replying to Waterfall in post #11]
I do not think life is worth living if there is no afterlife...
I find that quite sad, personally.
Do we have to put children into the world before we can say what they want?
In today's world, it seems selfish to do so.
Why say yes to be a part of a bad story?
Indeed. But why do we think every story would be bad?

Intriguing questions overall :approve:
How can life be worth living if there is no afterlife? if life is temporary then I do not want it and everybody should respect that and sort me from the rest, but nobody can do that and that is a problem? How to solve it? The only way is no children at all? So if we want to put children into the world then we have to believe in an afterlife? But what about those who do not want an afterlife? Is that a problem? Just ask God to erase you from existence?

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Love is the salt of life. It takes a moment to understand and eternity to live.

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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

Post #18

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to Waterfall in post #18]
How can life be worth living if there is no afterlife?
I've found life is what you make of it. If you are 'sad' because 'there's no afterlife', that's your choice to make. I don't see a need for an afterlife, of lack thereof, to dictate the here-n-now. Can I explain why? Not really. It's just innate, it seems. YOU and YOURE used here in the general sense, not directed at you specifically.
if life is temporary then I do not want it
I'm a firm believer that your life is your to do with as you wish. But know your life always directly impacts the lives of others, for the bad and good.
everybody should respect that and sort me from the rest, but nobody can do that and that is a problem?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean here - can you elaborate?
So if we want to put children into the world then we have to believe in an afterlife?
If that's a question I say no. But I'm also a firm believer that there are way more than enough people on the planet and no new ones should be arbitrarily added to it for some time.
But what about those who do not want an afterlife? Is that a problem? Just ask God to erase you from existence?
I personally don't know anyone who WANTS there to be no afterlife in some fashion. I'm sure those exist, just I don't know of any personally.

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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

Post #19

Post by Waterfall »

nobspeople wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:43 am [Replying to Waterfall in post #18]
How can life be worth living if there is no afterlife?
I've found life is what you make of it. If you are 'sad' because 'there's no afterlife', that's your choice to make. I don't see a need for an afterlife, of lack thereof, to dictate the here-n-now. Can I explain why? Not really. It's just innate, it seems. YOU and YOURE used here in the general sense, not directed at you specifically.
if life is temporary then I do not want it
I'm a firm believer that your life is your to do with as you wish. But know your life always directly impacts the lives of others, for the bad and good.
everybody should respect that and sort me from the rest, but nobody can do that and that is a problem?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean here - can you elaborate?
So if we want to put children into the world then we have to believe in an afterlife?
If that's a question I say no. But I'm also a firm believer that there are way more than enough people on the planet and no new ones should be arbitrarily added to it for some time.
But what about those who do not want an afterlife? Is that a problem? Just ask God to erase you from existence?
I personally don't know anyone who WANTS there to be no afterlife in some fashion. I'm sure those exist, just I don't know of any personally.
I am taking the position of the unborn...and is saying to you...if you want to put me into the world then you have to believe in an afterlife...because I do not want a temporary life...so please sort me from the rest if you do not believe in an afterlife...can you do that? How to solve the problem? If you believe there is no afterlife and you know that I do not want a temporary life then what to do? You cant just say that I am free to believe whatever I want? You have to go whit your own believe?

Your friend forever

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Re: Are you capable of putting children into the world?

Post #20

Post by nobspeople »

Waterfall wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:15 am
nobspeople wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:43 am [Replying to Waterfall in post #18]
How can life be worth living if there is no afterlife?
I've found life is what you make of it. If you are 'sad' because 'there's no afterlife', that's your choice to make. I don't see a need for an afterlife, of lack thereof, to dictate the here-n-now. Can I explain why? Not really. It's just innate, it seems. YOU and YOURE used here in the general sense, not directed at you specifically.
if life is temporary then I do not want it
I'm a firm believer that your life is your to do with as you wish. But know your life always directly impacts the lives of others, for the bad and good.
everybody should respect that and sort me from the rest, but nobody can do that and that is a problem?
I'm not entirely sure what you mean here - can you elaborate?
So if we want to put children into the world then we have to believe in an afterlife?
If that's a question I say no. But I'm also a firm believer that there are way more than enough people on the planet and no new ones should be arbitrarily added to it for some time.
But what about those who do not want an afterlife? Is that a problem? Just ask God to erase you from existence?
I personally don't know anyone who WANTS there to be no afterlife in some fashion. I'm sure those exist, just I don't know of any personally.
I am taking the position of the unborn...and is saying to you...if you want to put me into the world then you have to believe in an afterlife...because I do not want a temporary life...so please sort me from the rest if you do not believe in an afterlife...can you do that? How to solve the problem? If you believe there is no afterlife and you know that I do not want a temporary life then what to do? You cant just say that I am free to believe whatever I want? You have to go whit your own believe?

Your friend forever

Waterfall
If memory serves, there's a poster on this site (though I could be mis-remembering) that believes you're only put in this life when you, before being born, agree to it - or something to that effect. It's an interesting concept.
Then there are those that believe in reincarnation, though I'm unsure if at some point they believe in an afterlife once you've made all your life journeys here. I've seen many people with memories of past lives, many of these memories were verified by people familiar with the persons who had those memories.
Interesting things to consider, if you have an open mind and are willing to consider things outside your POV!

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