Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

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Miles
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Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

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Post by Miles »

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Assuming choice is possible, how does a person go about freely choosing to believe in god?

Is such a thing even possible? Doesn't there have to be an overwhelmingly convincing element that comes into play before such a belief can take place? And why would we settle on that particular element rather than some other element, which might not be convincing at all? Wouldn't picking that convincing element because that's what it is, be stacking the deck? And how would we become aware of such an element?



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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #31

Post by Sheila D »

[Replying to Miles in post #29]

Yes choice makes sense to me.
We're individuals -people see things differently and understand things differently. What is it _ one will see the glass half-full and the other will see it half empty. One's way of thinking is their own.

There are other conditions that a slightly few people have which affects one's ability to choose

https://www.healthline.com/health/autism/alexithymia

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK20369/#_A571_

but I could not say that was determinism or form of either.

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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #32

Post by Purple Knight »

mgb wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 6:31 am
Purple Knight wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 9:51 pm
I'm not accusing religious people of insanity, mainly because in most cases belief in God is taught,
The externals and particulars are taught but religious people often have an intuitive sense of God
Believing what your intuition tells you to isn't insanity either, since we all tend to believe our senses show us reality when there's little basis for that other than our intuition. You can be wrong, but that's not the same thing.

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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #33

Post by Seir1997 »

I think we can choose whether we believe in God or not. I do know that if you choose to believe in God then he will lead you through your life's journey and show you how to live a better life. But what happens after you die? Do you go to heaven or hell? Is there really a god out there who watches us and judges us? Or are we just here alone? Is our fate truly determined by ourselves? Are we responsible for our actions? Can we choose to believe in a god or not? This question has been bugging me for sometime now. So I decided to write about it here today.

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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

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Post by Miles »

Seir1997 wrote: Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:41 pm I think we can choose whether we believe in God or not. I do know that if you choose to believe in God then he will lead you through your life's journey and show you how to live a better life.
How do you know? How have you come about this knowledge?

But what happens after you die?
Don't know.

Do you go to heaven or hell?
Because I have no reason to think either exists, I don't believe I go to either one.

Is there really a god out there who watches us and judges us?
Not that I'm aware of.

Or are we just here alone?
Not at all. I have friends and family, enemies and loves, and am aware of many others.

Is our fate truly determined by ourselves?
It is not. Many factors outside of ourselves work in determining our fate.

Are we responsible for our actions?
At the very core of it all, we are not.

Can we choose to believe in a god or not?
No such thing as choice or choosing.


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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #35

Post by mac_ »

Miles wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:11 pm .


Assuming choice is possible, how does a person go about freely choosing to believe in god?

Is such a thing even possible? Doesn't there have to be an overwhelmingly convincing element that comes into play before such a belief can take place? And why would we settle on that particular element rather than some other element, which might not be convincing at all? Wouldn't picking that convincing element because that's what it is, be stacking the deck? And how would we become aware of such an element?



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Simple. People do what you're doing in this post: reasoning.

If you think reasoning is just the result of some uncontrollable interaction of matter in your brain, then I have a question: wouldn't said belief have come about through the same process? Why believe that true then since there's no truth value attached to physical objects?
Non-religious theist.

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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #36

Post by Miles »

mac_ wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:51 am
Miles wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:11 pm .


Assuming choice is possible, how does a person go about freely choosing to believe in god?

Is such a thing even possible? Doesn't there have to be an overwhelmingly convincing element that comes into play before such a belief can take place? And why would we settle on that particular element rather than some other element, which might not be convincing at all? Wouldn't picking that convincing element because that's what it is, be stacking the deck? And how would we become aware of such an element?



.
Simple. People do what you're doing in this post: reasoning.

If you think reasoning is just the result of some uncontrollable interaction of matter in your brain, then I have a question: wouldn't said belief have come about through the same process?
Yup. It's determinism.

Why believe that true then since there's no truth value attached to physical objects?[/color]
Sorry, but your statement here isn't making sense. I have no idea what you mean by "truth value attached to physical objects." Please rephrase or explain.


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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #37

Post by mac_ »

Miles wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:55 pm
mac_ wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:51 am
Miles wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:11 pm .


Assuming choice is possible, how does a person go about freely choosing to believe in god?

Is such a thing even possible? Doesn't there have to be an overwhelmingly convincing element that comes into play before such a belief can take place? And why would we settle on that particular element rather than some other element, which might not be convincing at all? Wouldn't picking that convincing element because that's what it is, be stacking the deck? And how would we become aware of such an element?



.
Simple. People do what you're doing in this post: reasoning.

If you think reasoning is just the result of some uncontrollable interaction of matter in your brain, then I have a question: wouldn't said belief have come about through the same process?
Yup. It's determinism.

Why believe that true then since there's no truth value attached to physical objects?[/color]
Sorry, but your statement here isn't making sense. I have no idea what you mean by "truth value attached to physical objects." Please rephrase or explain.


.

My point is that to deny free-will is to also undermine your reasoning ability. If all thoughts are just brought about by uncontrollable physical processes, then so is any conclusion one makes about truth.

I could say "I think we have free-will". How could one prove this false if my thought was brought about by the same uncontrollable physical process as as the person denying free-will?
Non-religious theist.

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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #38

Post by Miles »

mac_ wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:33 pm
Miles wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:55 pm
mac_ wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:51 am
Miles wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:11 pm .


Assuming choice is possible, how does a person go about freely choosing to believe in god?

Is such a thing even possible? Doesn't there have to be an overwhelmingly convincing element that comes into play before such a belief can take place? And why would we settle on that particular element rather than some other element, which might not be convincing at all? Wouldn't picking that convincing element because that's what it is, be stacking the deck? And how would we become aware of such an element?



.
Simple. People do what you're doing in this post: reasoning.

If you think reasoning is just the result of some uncontrollable interaction of matter in your brain, then I have a question: wouldn't said belief have come about through the same process?
Yup. It's determinism.

Why believe that true then since there's no truth value attached to physical objects?[/color]
Sorry, but your statement here isn't making sense. I have no idea what you mean by "truth value attached to physical objects." Please rephrase or explain.


.

My point is that to deny free-will is to also undermine your reasoning ability.
In effect, yes it does. It puts all our thinking in the hands of determinism.

If all thoughts are just brought about by uncontrollable physical processes, then so is any conclusion one makes about truth.
Yup, but because the "physical process" is itself determined it is not uncontrolled. As a thinking agent you certainly have no choice about what you conclude, but this doesn't mean that whatever you conclude can't be true. Maybe yes. Maybe no.

I could say "I think we have free-will". How could one prove this false if my thought was brought about by the same uncontrollable physical process as as the person denying free-will?
If you said "I think we have free-will," of course I couldn't prove you didn't say it. Nor could I prove that this wasn't what you actually thought. But the burden of proof isn't mine to prove what you think is false, but yours to prove that what you think is true. So . . . . . . .


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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #39

Post by mac_ »

Miles wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 4:22 pm
mac_ wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:33 pm
Miles wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:55 pm
mac_ wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:51 am
Miles wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:11 pm .


Assuming choice is possible, how does a person go about freely choosing to believe in god?

Is such a thing even possible? Doesn't there have to be an overwhelmingly convincing element that comes into play before such a belief can take place? And why would we settle on that particular element rather than some other element, which might not be convincing at all? Wouldn't picking that convincing element because that's what it is, be stacking the deck? And how would we become aware of such an element?



.
Simple. People do what you're doing in this post: reasoning.

If you think reasoning is just the result of some uncontrollable interaction of matter in your brain, then I have a question: wouldn't said belief have come about through the same process?
Yup. It's determinism.

Why believe that true then since there's no truth value attached to physical objects?[/color]
Sorry, but your statement here isn't making sense. I have no idea what you mean by "truth value attached to physical objects." Please rephrase or explain.


.

My point is that to deny free-will is to also undermine your reasoning ability.
In effect, yes it does. It puts all our thinking in the hands of determinism.

If all thoughts are just brought about by uncontrollable physical processes, then so is any conclusion one makes about truth.

Yup, but because the "physical process" is itself determined it is not uncontrolled. As a thinking agent you certainly have no choice about what you conclude, but this doesn't mean that whatever you conclude can't be true. Maybe yes. Maybe no.

I could say "I think we have free-will". How could one prove this false if my thought was brought about by the same uncontrollable physical process as as the person denying free-will?
If you said "I think we have free-will," of course I couldn't prove you didn't say it. Nor could I prove that this wasn't what you actually thought. But the burden of proof isn't mine to prove what you think is false, but yours to prove that what you think is true. So . . . . . . .


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But if I accept the premise that I have no choice about what I conclude, I, nor anyone else can know whether a conclusion is true. Isn't that problematic? But if we have "free-will" in the context of reasoning to conclusions, then that problem is eliminated.
Non-religious theist.

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Re: Can We Choose To Believe In God?.

Post #40

Post by Miles »

mac_ wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 9:57 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 4:22 pm
mac_ wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:33 pm
Miles wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:55 pm
mac_ wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:51 am
Miles wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:11 pm .


Assuming choice is possible, how does a person go about freely choosing to believe in god?

Is such a thing even possible? Doesn't there have to be an overwhelmingly convincing element that comes into play before such a belief can take place? And why would we settle on that particular element rather than some other element, which might not be convincing at all? Wouldn't picking that convincing element because that's what it is, be stacking the deck? And how would we become aware of such an element?



.
Simple. People do what you're doing in this post: reasoning.

If you think reasoning is just the result of some uncontrollable interaction of matter in your brain, then I have a question: wouldn't said belief have come about through the same process?
Yup. It's determinism.

Why believe that true then since there's no truth value attached to physical objects?[/color]
Sorry, but your statement here isn't making sense. I have no idea what you mean by "truth value attached to physical objects." Please rephrase or explain.


.

My point is that to deny free-will is to also undermine your reasoning ability.
In effect, yes it does. It puts all our thinking in the hands of determinism.

If all thoughts are just brought about by uncontrollable physical processes, then so is any conclusion one makes about truth.

Yup, but because the "physical process" is itself determined it is not uncontrolled. As a thinking agent you certainly have no choice about what you conclude, but this doesn't mean that whatever you conclude can't be true. Maybe yes. Maybe no.

I could say "I think we have free-will". How could one prove this false if my thought was brought about by the same uncontrollable physical process as as the person denying free-will?
If you said "I think we have free-will," of course I couldn't prove you didn't say it. Nor could I prove that this wasn't what you actually thought. But the burden of proof isn't mine to prove what you think is false, but yours to prove that what you think is true. So . . . . . . .


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But if I accept the premise that I have no choice about what I conclude, I, nor anyone else can know whether a conclusion is true. Isn't that problematic?
Not at all. As a "freewiller" one may or may not ever know conclusion X is true. As a determinist one may or may not ever know conclusion X is true. A guarantee doesn't come with either one. Your reasoning as a freewiller may be just as corrupt, or just as spot on, as the information arrived at through determinism. Again, there's no guarantee either way. . As for actually knowing, this would come down to the degree a conclusion could be said to be a fact; that is, confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold at least provisional assent.


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