How can I believe what I do not believe?

[Zzyzx]

How can I believe what I do not believe?

I am often counseled to “just read the bible and believe” and told that I must “believe” to be “saved from damnation”.

I cannot bring myself to believe the claims that are made – giants, and angels, and devils, and talking snakes, and every animal in the world in a boat, etc. Yet, Christians say over and over, “just believe” or “believe on faith alone” – and you will be “saved”.

Can I just suddenly believe if I get scared just before I die and be admitted to heaven? Is there any rule against that?

[Confused]

I can't tell you how to beleive what you don't believe. I can tell you that I can't even comprehend most of the bible so if you can at least do that, you are way ahead of me.

In regards to saying you believe upon your deathbed, that could be quite the dilemma. My understanding is that if you are sincere in your heart, you will be granted salvation. But I am not sure of anyone who wouldn't be sincere in their heart on their deathbed. My vote, you'd get in.

[Greatest I Am]

How can I believe what I do not believe?

GIA wrote
Impossible to believe what you do not believe, unless you are good at self delusion. Why would you want to believe something you are unsure of?

I am often counseled to “just read the bible and believe” and told that I must “believe” to be “saved from damnation”.

GIA wrote
God is greedy and Perfect.
He makes all souls perfect assuring that we all reach Heaven one way or another.

I cannot bring myself to believe the claims that are made – giants, and angels, and devils, and talking snakes, and every animal in the world in a boat, etc. Yet, Christians say over and over, “just believe” or “believe on faith alone” – and you will be “saved”.

Can I just suddenly believe if I get scared just before I die and be admitted to heaven? Is there any rule against that?

You are on your way if you have already rejected talking snakes.
Representative imagery is rampant in the Bible.
If you concentrate on viewing things the way a benevolent Jesus, then the view changes as well.

Regards
DL

[Zzyzx]

You are on your way if you have already rejected talking snakes.

I rejected talking snakes, giants, animals on an ark, invisible beings, walking on water, etc by the time I was eight years old -- almost sixty years ago. If I am "on my way", that way certainly leads away from believing what I consider nonsense.

Representative imagery is rampant in the Bible.

"Representative imagery" is SO rampant in the bible that I find very little that is of interest or value to me. The tall tales render the whole work unbelievable. As I said as a child, “Why would I believe THAT” (or respect anyone who asked me to believe it).

If I want ethical guidance, I choose sources that are broader and more consistent. If I want practical guidance in everyday life there are thousands of sources that I prefer.

If you concentrate on viewing things the way a benevolent Jesus, then the view changes as well.

Why would I emulate a character that I regard as mythical?

[FinalEnigma]

If you concentrate on viewing things the way a benevolent Jesus, then the view changes as well.

Why would I emulate a character that I regard as mythical?

Actually, emulating a mythical character wouldnt be entirely unreasonable. Just becasue a character doesnt actually exist doesnt rob him of all value. When you're a kid, you always want to be like the knight who slays the dragon in all the stories. Why? well, he's brave, honorable, and everybody loves him.

And plenty can be learned from fiction. Many fictinal children's stories have a moral behind them. perhaps the main character stands up for what he believes, or acts with significant compassion where he could have easily done otherwise. These would seem to be people worthy of emulation, despite the fact that they don't actually exist.

To be perfectly honest, if i had to pick an idol, it would be(if fictional characters are allowed) a character from my favorite book series. I don't know if anybody has read the childe cycle, by Gordon R Dickson. (it's a wonderful series, the first book is "Dorsai!") But i would pick either Donal or Bleys, from that series. I have read that series so man times you wouldn't believe it, ive even unintentionally memorized significant portions of a couple of the books.
(Donal and Bleys are actually opposing characters, each being the leader of a kind of faction within the human race *major oversimplification warning* but both are almost beyond normal human capabilities. At first they seem similar to eatchother, but as you become more familiar with them you see that they are really very different)

interestingly enough, the other day my brother commented that my personality is very much like an amalgamation of Donal, Bleys, and my father, Which is actually amusingly accurate.(though it mostly is Donal and Bleys. And, to get a little more accuracy, I would add Raistlin from the dragonlance series, who happens to be my favorite character)

[Greatest I Am]

You are on your way if you have already rejected talking snakes.

I rejected talking snakes, giants, animals on an ark, invisible beings, walking on water, etc by the time I was eight years old -- almost sixty years ago. If I am "on my way", that way certainly leads away from believing what I consider nonsense.

Representative imagery is rampant in the Bible.

"Representative imagery" is SO rampant in the bible that I find very little that is of interest or value to me. The tall tales render the whole work unbelievable. As I said as a child, “Why would I believe THAT” (or respect anyone who asked me to believe it).

If I want ethical guidance, I choose sources that are broader and more consistent. If I want practical guidance in everyday life there are thousands of sources that I prefer.

If you concentrate on viewing things the way a benevolent Jesus, then the view changes as well.

Why would I emulate a character that I regard as mythical?

I did not mean to indicate that I did not consider the Bible the best road map to God. It is. Even with the imagery. I meant that if you read it with the eyes and compassionate and inclusive nature of Jesus, it reads differently.

For example look at the dialog from God to Adam and Eve. Most read anger and vengefulness in the words of God. I read benevolence if I tone down the volume just a touch. If God wanted us in the Garden we would be there. God is powerful enough for that. Read God's words as someone conveying information and you will sence what I mean. I hope.

Do not just discard the imagery. If you do you will loose the message. Determine instead what they represent. IE. The tree represents good and evil in balance. Satan is the thoughts of evil. Angels the thoughts of good.

God is Perfect and so is our earthly existence. Enjoy it and continue to try to understand the Bible.

Regards
DL

[Greatest I Am]

If you concentrate on viewing things the way a benevolent Jesus, then the view changes as well.

Why would I emulate a character that I regard as mythical?

Emulate His character and mind set. Do not call yourself Jesus.

Actually, emulating a mythical character wouldn't be entirely unreasonable. Just because a character doesn't actually exist doesn't rob him of all value. When you're a kid, you always want to be like the knight who slays the dragon in all the stories. Why? well, he's brave, honorable, and everybody loves him.

And plenty can be learned from fiction. Many fictional children's stories have a moral behind them. perhaps the main character stands up for what he believes, or acts with significant compassion where he could have easily done otherwise. These would seem to be people worthy of emulation, despite the fact that they don't actually exist.

To be perfectly honest, if i had to pick an idol, it would be(if fictional characters are allowed) a character from my favorite book series. I don't know if anybody has read the childe cycle, by Gordon R Dickson. (it's a wonderful series, the first book is "Dorsai!") But i would pick either Donal or Bleys, from that series. I have read that series so man times you wouldn't believe it, ive even unintentionally memorized significant portions of a couple of the books.
(Donal and Bleys are actually opposing characters, each being the leader of a kind of faction within the human race *major oversimplification warning* but both are almost beyond normal human capabilities. At first they seem similar to eatchother, but as you become more familiar with them you see that they are really very different)

interestingly enough, the other day my brother commented that my personality is very much like an amalgamation of Donal, Bleys, and my father, Which is actually amusingly accurate.(though it mostly is Donal and Bleys. And, to get a little more accuracy, I would add Raistlin from the dragonlance series, who happens to be my favorite character)

True.

The problem with this though is that many among us here are looking for real Angels to help us. Fear a real Satan. Believe in Hell even though Jesus died to kill sin and Hell.

If you try to dither a Perfect God out of all that the Bible has to say, you will find His. He is behind a hardly permeable screen but He is there.

Regards
DL

[FinalEnigma]

I did not mean to indicate that I did not consider the Bible the best road map to God. It is. Even with the imagery. I meant that if you read it with the eyes and compassionate and inclusive nature of Jesus, it reads differently.

For example look at the dialog from God to Adam and Eve. Most read anger and vengefulness in the words of God. I read benevolence if I tone down the volume just a touch. If God wanted us in the Garden we would be there. God is powerful enough for that. Read God's words as someone conveying information and you will sence what I mean. I hope.

I went back and read that part of genesis again, and I follow you up to 3:15, almost. If I really try, and read it in a reasonable, benevolent tone, I can almost make it that far. But then this kills it.

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life

I'm sorry, I just don't see the benevolence there. At the least it appears to be punishment, perhaps dissapointment if you read incredible forgiveness into it. But I don't see the benevolence there. At best it appears to approximate a father's-

"look, i told you not to do it. You broke the rules. I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to punish you for it."
But to read it that way seems a stretch of credulity.

[Greatest I Am]

I did not mean to indicate that I did not consider the Bible the best road map to God. It is. Even with the imagery. I meant that if you read it with the eyes and compassionate and inclusive nature of Jesus, it reads differently.

For example look at the dialog from God to Adam and Eve. Most read anger and vengefulness in the words of God. I read benevolence if I tone down the volume just a touch. If God wanted us in the Garden we would be there. God is powerful enough for that. Read God's words as someone conveying information and you will sence what I mean. I hope.

I went back and read that part of genesis again, and I follow you up to 3:15, almost. If I really try, and read it in a reasonable, benevolent tone, I can almost make it that far. But then this kills it.

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life

I'm sorry, I just don't see the benevolence there. At the least it appears to be punishment, perhaps disappointment if you read incredible forgiveness into it. But I don't see the benevolence there. At best it appears to approximate a father's-

"look, i told you not to do it. You broke the rules. I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to punish you for it."
But to read it that way seems a stretch of credulity.

I understand the difficulty of the task especially if, like most, you think of our departure from the garden as a penalty. Consider though where we as animals would be if we had chosen the garden of ignorance.

Eve chose to learn instead of laying back to a life of worthlessness. She would gladly accept any woes in order that mankind have a life worth living.

If life were not going the way God had intended, would He continue a worthless system that does nothing but ruin the perfection of His universe. God started from a perfectly pure existence, why would He introduce imperfection. Indeed can God even produce imperfection. I doubt it.

Thank God for Eve, even if it took 2000 years for us to recognize her Perfection as given by God.

Regards
DL

[FinalEnigma]

I understand the difficulty of the task especially if, like most, you think of our departure from the garden as a penalty. Consider though where we as animals would be if we had chosen the garden of ignorance.

Even if you dont consider departure from the garden as punishment, the passages I quoted are diffcult to see any other way.

Eve chose to learn instead of laying back to a life of worthlessness. She would gladly accept any woes in order that mankind have a life worth living.

I don't see a basis for this in scripture. I know it's what you believe, but i just don't see a basis for it.