Is Allah in the Quran the same God of the Bible?

[Burninglight]

Allah means God in Arabic or the god as some contend. Muslims say yes he is the same god and some Christians say yes he is as well, but many Christians say "no He is not." The God in the Bible has a son, but Allah says he doesn't. Muslims say Christians associate partners unto God, but Christians say that is not true and that they are monotheistic or that God is one.

Muslims do not believe when Christians say they are not polytheistic. Christians say Muhammad isn't a confirmed Biblical prophet, but Muslims say he is. Muslims say the Bible has been corrupted, but Christians say the Quran is corrupted.

The Bible says Ishmael is no prophet. Muslims say he is. Jesus said he is "The Way, the Truth, and the Life." Muslims say he was that for his time and for the Jews he came only. Christians say that Jesus is the truth for all time and all people and that Jesus never said I show the truth or the way.

The Quran says that Jesus is not the word of God made flesh, but the Bible says he is. Muslims don't have eternal security, but Christians say we can know now from the Bible if we will be saved and know now if we have eternal life because God assures us. Christians believe that Jesus is Deity, but Muslim so no he is just a prophet or messenger.

Any of these topics on this thread are welcome and open for discussion and or debate!

[Burninglight]

Who is this guy?

you...

Muslim ask me "was moses the truth??? was noah the truth??? was isaac???

No, they were not the truth; they showed the truth. That is the significant difference you cannot seem to grasp. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life" He didn't say I show the way, truth and life.

Your leaders teach you in error saying that Jesus was the way & truth for his time and moses for his and Abraham for his and Muhammad for his time. No, they read into what Jesus said. Your leaders are not God's prophets and have no authority to say such false things.

You are going to have to account to Jesus and God. Who is speaking to you directly through me saying, "Behold I stand at the door and knock. If any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and sup with him and him with me" Rev 3: 20.

I am not speaking my word friend. This God's word. God said of Jesus. "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased. hear ye Him" God is telling you to trust what Jesus said, God your Creator is telling you personally. You are invited to be a co heir with Jesus Christ. It is written in the Bible. "How shall we escape the judgment of God if we neglect so great a salvation?"

God is placing before you life and death, and He would that you choose life. That life is in Christ Jesus. It is written in the Scripture that will never change: "He that has the son has life; he that doesn't have the son has not life, but the wrath of God abides on him" Jn. Ahmed Deedat had the wrath of God on him. When his cup of blasphemy was filled, God judged him. Please be wise and learn from the mistakes of others. Jesus is the last Adam.

It is written: "We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" We reject this message at our own peril. God is giving you an opportunity to know that you are totally pleasing, acceptable and complete in His sight through His provision Jesus who gave Himself for us. That doesn't mean you can do you own thing. It just means He sets you free to do what is right in God's eyes to where you are no longer trusting in you own works but in Christ's word and work for us on the cross. He died so we could live! He is the Prince of Peace. Lets face it, you don't really have peace. You don't know where you're are going paradise of hell.

Jesus was sent so we could know our eternal destiny. God wants us to be a peace and rest in Him and not have to worry did I do enough good enough fasting?, did I miss any prayers?, did I take my pilgrimage? and the shahadah is such an abomination. It is a hypocritical prayer to where you are confessing an association with Allah. The shahadah associates Muhammad Allah's salve with Allah to where you cannot just confess the name of Allah you must mention Muhammad's name.

The Torah says that Ishmael was no prophet. Muslims claim that Muhammad descended from him. Look at The Torah that Allah never said was corrupted not did Muhammad Gen 21:12 No, prophet comes out of Ishmael. Hagar and Ishmael were reject and by Abraham and sent away at God's command. God's promise was through Isaac from where Jesus comes the greatest of all prophets the son of the living God and God said He is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hve shared what the Bible is about to you. I am not interested in hearing false things about Islam; just the truth about it.Most of the things I share are from my own observations.

[Asher]

Really sorry for the delay, I'm very busy these weeks;

I know how the Quran and Bible were written. The point I was trying to make was that there was no divine mandate that the Koran should be written and that Uthman burned the original Qurans and recompiled them. Uthman was no prophet and he acted as Allah’s editor, and those that memorized the Quran were killed.

The thing is that you have messed up everything;
1) Those who memorized the Qu'ran were getting killed(not all of them had died)
2) Uthman decide that he should write the verses of the Qu'ran before they all die;
3) After compilation some people were mispronouncing the verses of the Qu'ran;
4) Then happens all the things with the copies and vowel addition;
5) Then he selected one out of the copies, and burned the others;
The Qu'ran was already compiled before the people who memorized it died;

In light of the fact that all the information contained in the Koran was already in print by these three doctors, will you retract the argument or show me something new about Embryology, that was not already revealed or that was new.

I will neither retract nor show new things but I will explain;
An illiterate man would copy from a foreign language book and ommit it's errors?;

86:6-7 the Koran says, "man was created from ejected liquid- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs".
do you reject modern science and believe the Koran when it says sperm originates from the mid-gut section of a man's body? So much for that.

Greek Physician:
The Greek physician Hippocrates and his followers taught in the fifth century BC that semen comes from all the fluid in the body, diffusing from the brain into the spinal marrow, before passing through the kidneys and via the testicles into the penis.

Qu'ran:
In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of the male and female, begin their development near the kidney between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs. Later they descend; the female gonads stop in the pelvis while the male gonads continue their descent before birth to reach the scrotum through the inguinal canal. Even in the adult after the descent of the reproductive organ, these organs receive their nerve supply and blood supply from the Abdominal Aorta, which is in the area between the backbone and the ribs. Even the lymphatic drainage and the venous return goes to the same area.

As you can see the physician thought that "diffusing from the brain into the spinal marrow";
Which is different from the Qu'ran;
I can't reject neither the Qu'ran nor Science as they do not even diverge;

I didn’t say Allah was talking about the trinity. I know he wasn't.

I said any intelligent person can deduct using inferences that Allah didn’t have an understanding of the trinity by his question to Jesus and his comment about “Say not three!�

I hope that the "intelligent person" can come to know what you know "I didn’t say Allah was talking about the trinity. I know he wasn't."

Qur'an 5:116-->And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? If Allah questions about Jesus about Mary being god along with himself, who would the third person of the trinity be? If Mary & Jesus were gods that makes 2 who is the third, if not Allah? He didn’t know that the Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity.

I am proving to you that Islam’s Allah is ignorant and so was Muhammad about what true Christians believe of the trinity. Now, don’t bring up that Biblical Christians worship Mary, because they don’t. Catholics do that.

Catholics are Christians and one of the oldest groups in Christianity moreover when the Qu'ran was talking about the christians it was not refering to Catholics neither Protestant nor 7th Day Aventist etc... but to Christianity as a whole;
Catholic praise Mary by saying she is the Mother of God;
The Father is God;
The Son is God; If the Father and the Son is God their is no reason for the Mother not to be (made) God;
The Holy Spirit is God;
But yet they all say three not four even the Catholics;

The trinity concept is in the Bible

I want to see it; Do not just say it I want proofs;remember OT;

Mary is not consider a god in the Bible nor is she to be prayed to, nor is she the mother of God.

And yet the Catholics(With more than 1.1 billion baptized members, the Catholic Church is the largest church representing over half of all Christians) says it.

As far as Matthew 1:17 which lists fourteen generations and then elsewhere 13, that is because Matthew gives the genealogy from Joseph’s (Mary husband) side and Luke gives it from Mary’s side.

Luke 3:23-24-->And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph.
Matthew1:15-16--> And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Mary is Just mentioned to be the wife of Joseph; The Genealogy of Mary is not present;

if you want to see contradiction plug in You tube “contradictions in the Quran� and have fun. This doesn’t get us anywhere. I am sure you can find explanations.

The only contradictions that people says is present in the Qu'ran is only when either:
1) They Quote out of context
2) Half of an Ayat(verse)
I just have to bring context or read the whole verse to refute them insha'Allah;
But we don't need to go that far, go back and read all your replies and see how many times you contradict youself;

Luke saying Jesus was about 30 is not showing that God is ignorant.The Bible is a book that records history or information. People are giving an account as they see it. We read sometimes between the lines and get hold of what God is saying through the recorded information. Luke speaking is not God speaking such as “Thus says the Lord!� Allah was the one talking when he questioned Jesus not some Muslim apostle or disciple! I don’t have a problem reading or with comprehending. I am bringing up every good points that you don’t really address accurately.

Sorry for this unaccurate answer I thought that tou you the bible was the word of God;
Hope this one is accurate enough:
Genesis 22:2-->And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
According to this Verse God did not knew that Abraham had another Son Ishmael;

Now, I’ll end with Jesus asking "Why do you call me good?" Every Muslim misunderstands this. Jesus was not saying he wasn’t good! Jesus was speaking to him rhetorically and testing him. He was witnessing to him. Jesus wanted him to understand that only God is good, and by calling Jesus good, he was calling Him God. If the rich young ruler said, “But you are good, because you are the son of the living God� Jesus would have said, “Blessed are you for you could not have know this unless my father in heaven had shown you!� Muslims don’t know Jesus.

And you say that muslim uses too much inferences on the bible;
You are the one adding things here;

Their Jesus is different than the one in the Bible. I know Him that is why I am not ignorant like you say you are about salvation. If you are ignorant about it that means you are lost. Only Jesus can find & save you!

I did not say that I was ignorant but that it is illogical that's why you have not been able to reply on the other post;
The Jesus in the Qu'ran is a Messenger saved by his Master;
Not a lamb that God offered to God knows who as a ransom, which is illogical as God says all sacrifices should be done to his name only;

I will end here you said previously that we Muslims we did not hear God calling Jesus his Son from the Heavens,
Maybe Muslims are deaf then as John the Baptist was:
Matthew 11:2-3-->Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?;

It was a pleasure argueing with you;

[LaaIlahaIllAllah]

Who is this guy?

you...

Muslim ask me "was moses the truth??? was noah the truth??? was isaac???

No, they were not the truth; they showed the truth. That is the significant difference you cannot seem to grasp. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life" He didn't say I show the way, truth and life.

Your leaders teach you in error saying that Jesus was the way & truth for his time and moses for his and Abraham for his and Muhammad for his time. No, they read into what Jesus said. Your leaders are not God's prophets and have no authority to say such false things.

You are going to have to account to Jesus and God. Who is speaking to you directly through me saying, "Behold I stand at the door and knock. If any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and sup with him and him with me" Rev 3: 20.

I am not speaking my word friend. This God's word. God said of Jesus. "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased. hear ye Him" God is telling you to trust what Jesus said, God your Creator is telling you personally. You are invited to be a co heir with Jesus Christ. It is written in the Bible. "How shall we escape the judgment of God if we neglect so great a salvation?"

God is placing before you life and death, and He would that you choose life. That life is in Christ Jesus. It is written in the Scripture that will never change: "He that has the son has life; he that doesn't have the son has not life, but the wrath of God abides on him" Jn. Ahmed Deedat had the wrath of God on him. When his cup of blasphemy was filled, God judged him. Please be wise and learn from the mistakes of others. Jesus is the last Adam.

It is written: "We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" We reject this message at our own peril. God is giving you an opportunity to know that you are totally pleasing, acceptable and complete in His sight through His provision Jesus who gave Himself for us. That doesn't mean you can do you own thing. It just means He sets you free to do what is right in God's eyes to where you are no longer trusting in you own works but in Christ's word and work for us on the cross. He died so we could live! He is the Prince of Peace. Lets face it, you don't really have peace. You don't know where you're are going paradise of hell.

Jesus was sent so we could know our eternal destiny. God wants us to be a peace and rest in Him and not have to worry did I do enough good enough fasting?, did I miss any prayers?, did I take my pilgrimage? and the shahadah is such an abomination. It is a hypocritical prayer to where you are confessing an association with Allah. The shahadah associates Muhammad Allah's salve with Allah to where you cannot just confess the name of Allah you must mention Muhammad's name.

The Torah says that Ishmael was no prophet. Muslims claim that Muhammad descended from him. Look at The Torah that Allah never said was corrupted not did Muhammad Gen 21:12 No, prophet comes out of Ishmael. Hagar and Ishmael were reject and by Abraham and sent away at God's command. God's promise was through Isaac from where Jesus comes the greatest of all prophets the son of the living God and God said He is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hve shared what the Bible is about to you. I am not interested in hearing false things about Islam; just the truth about it.Most of the things I share are from my own observations.

What the heck are you blabbering about man. As far as I knew I didn't see a question mark in my reply and even if there was, I do not think I asked for some random info...

Maybe in your country or state saying 'you' means that you want the other person to start rambling, I dunno.

Secondly,
"Your leaders teach you in error saying that Jesus was the way & truth for his time and moses for his and Abraham for his and Muhammad for his time. No, they read into what Jesus said. Your leaders are not God's prophets and have no authority to say such false things. "

My, "leaders" don't teach me about the Bible... Why would we want to know about something that was corrupted, edited, and corrupted, translated and corrupted many times over? Actually, not even written in the time of prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, and by authors still unknown today!

No, our leaders don't waste our time like that.

Third,
I guess from your reply that you didn't know this but as you have seen above, we don't believe the Bible is 100% correct and preserved.

If we say that this sentence of prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, is true then we can take it many ways. You say WE read into the words falsely, yet this is the basis of your religion. Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, says one thing and you - with your mindset that he is God already - take it as something totally different. This is because of the way it's written in parables and other ways that make it possible for minds to get 1000 different meanings from it.


"No, they were not the truth; they showed the truth."
As I said, and everybody knows, he spoke in parables and not literally. He explained that to the Jews when they accused him of blasphemy, he said in the Bible something along the lines of, "in the scripture it's written 'ye are gods' so why do you accuse me of blasphemy when I say i'm son of God" - even though there what is translated as son of God in aramaic is talya alaha which in the dialect prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, spoke means *servant* of God and the dialect that those Jews that accused him it means *son* of God, but that's another topic.

The point is, in the Bible he rarely spoke literally and you love to take parts which are ambigious literally when it suits you. Like asking a Christian, where does Jesus say "I am God", his response: my Father is greater than I, Muslim repsonse: . Common sense - and the context - tell us that they are not literally one physically or whatever.

Follow the guidance of the Qur'aan and 'use your mind' and 'ponder' on this if you don't get it - like that shahadah thing which you coulda figured out in a minute instead of taking several years.


Most of the stuff you wrote in middle is not really argumentative so no point of responding to most of it.

One funny thing to mention is that in the Bible, prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) used to tell his disciples not to go in the way of the gentiles - which only proves the teachings of Islam more.

"He died so we could live",
No he didn't die and God did not die in any way, shape or form. Again, God does not die, in any way shape or form.

" Lets face it, you don't really have peace"
Yes, I have acquired peace through submitting my will to God - that is Islam.


"and the shahadah is such an abomination. It is a hypocritical prayer to where you are confessing an association with Allah. The shahadah associates Muhammad Allah's salve with Allah to where you cannot just confess the name of Allah you must mention Muhammad's name. "
I replied to this in another thread on this site, go check it out. It is sad that you have been confused with this for years - as you said - when the answer is so simple, God must have made you deaf, dumb, and blind.

"and not have to worry did I do enough good enough fasting?, did I miss any prayers?, did I take my pilgrimage?"
Yea, we actually believe in doing good deeds and avoiding bad ones, not just sitting on our butts all day since God supposedly committed suicide for us. Even though the Bible also says deeds are required - but this too is another topic.

" Look at The Torah that Allah never said was corrupted"
I think you should read the Quran before making claims about which you have no knowledge.....

So basically this whole argument of yours is faulty and useless against Muslims because actually there are verses in the Quran which speak about the Jews writing with their own hand and saying it's from Allah. It's ended just with this lol.
But even so there are those who fight for the Truth and prove *from the Bible* this whole Isma'il, Muhammad situation, may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon them both, but I won't waste my time posting stuff here cause it's prolly against the rules so you can search it by yourself and see the proof. Obviously you might not agree but it's just too bad cause the evidence is sound and there are no inconsistencies, rather there are inconsistencies in the opposing side's arguments.
___________________


Asher if you are reading this, don't waste too much of your time replying to this guy's foolish comments and replies because you will see that he just repeats them like a parrot would, even though they were answered and refuted many times before all over this site. Just look at his later posts and you will prolly see him repeating the stuff, haha. And I think he still didn't reply to your refutations from before.. Just avoids them by rambling to me

[otseng]

Asher if you are reading this, don't waste too much of your time replying to this guy's foolish comments and replies because you will see that he just repeats them like a parrot would, even though they were answered and refuted many times before all over this site. Just look at his later posts and you will prolly see him repeating the stuff, haha. And I think he still didn't reply to your refutations from before.. Just avoids them by rambling to me

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[Burninglight]

Who is this guy?

you...

Muslim ask me "was moses the truth??? was noah the truth??? was isaac???

No, they were not the truth; they showed the truth. That is the significant difference you cannot seem to grasp. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life" He didn't say I show the way, truth and life.

Your leaders teach you in error saying that Jesus was the way & truth for his time and moses for his and Abraham for his and Muhammad for his time. No, they read into what Jesus said. Your leaders are not God's prophets and have no authority to say such false things.

You are going to have to account to Jesus and God. Who is speaking to you directly through me saying, "Behold I stand at the door and knock. If any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and sup with him and him with me" Rev 3: 20.

I am not speaking my word friend. This God's word. God said of Jesus. "This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased. hear ye Him" God is telling you to trust what Jesus said, God your Creator is telling you personally. You are invited to be a co heir with Jesus Christ. It is written in the Bible. "How shall we escape the judgment of God if we neglect so great a salvation?"

God is placing before you life and death, and He would that you choose life. That life is in Christ Jesus. It is written in the Scripture that will never change: "He that has the son has life; he that doesn't have the son has not life, but the wrath of God abides on him" Jn. Ahmed Deedat had the wrath of God on him. When his cup of blasphemy was filled, God judged him. Please be wise and learn from the mistakes of others. Jesus is the last Adam.

It is written: "We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" We reject this message at our own peril. God is giving you an opportunity to know that you are totally pleasing, acceptable and complete in His sight through His provision Jesus who gave Himself for us. That doesn't mean you can do you own thing. It just means He sets you free to do what is right in God's eyes to where you are no longer trusting in you own works but in Christ's word and work for us on the cross. He died so we could live! He is the Prince of Peace. Lets face it, you don't really have peace. You don't know where you're are going paradise of hell.

Jesus was sent so we could know our eternal destiny. God wants us to be a peace and rest in Him and not have to worry did I do enough good enough fasting?, did I miss any prayers?, did I take my pilgrimage? and the shahadah is such an abomination. It is a hypocritical prayer to where you are confessing an association with Allah. The shahadah associates Muhammad Allah's salve with Allah to where you cannot just confess the name of Allah you must mention Muhammad's name.

The Torah says that Ishmael was no prophet. Muslims claim that Muhammad descended from him. Look at The Torah that Allah never said was corrupted not did Muhammad Gen 21:12 No, prophet comes out of Ishmael. Hagar and Ishmael were reject and by Abraham and sent away at God's command. God's promise was through Isaac from where Jesus comes the greatest of all prophets the son of the living God and God said He is!!!!

I have shared what the Bible is about to you. I am not interested in hearing false things about Islam; just the truth about it. Most of the things I share are from my own observations.

What the heck are you blabbering about man. As far as I knew I didn't see a question mark in my reply and even if there was, I do not think I asked for some random info...

Maybe in your country or state saying 'you' means that you want the other person to start rambling, I dunno.

Secondly,
My, "leaders" don't teach me about the Bible... Why would we want to know about something that was corrupted, edited, and corrupted, translated and corrupted many times over? Actually, not even written in the time of prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, and by authors still unknown today!

No, our leaders don't waste our time like that.

Third,
I guess from your reply that you didn't know this but as you have seen above, we don't believe the Bible is 100% correct and preserved.

Dear Brother of Humanity:

Now, even though I am tempted, I won't say that you're babbling or deaf, dumb and blind like you say of me (rude), but I will say all your points had been addressed as well. This is not necessarily addressed to you; unless, you want it to be. I am requoting some things I already wrote since you must have missed it.

First of all, what can be read into Jesus saying, "I am the way, truth and the life?" Christians don't read into that. Muslims do, and I can tell you again exactly how. Muslims say Jesus meant he was the truth for His time like Moses, Abraham, and Muhammad was for theirs. They shouldn't put Muhammad's name in there, because he is not a confirmed prophet, but that is another topic.

Let’s look at how Muslim read into what Jesus said. Jesus didn't say, I show the way, truth and the life like other prophets. He said, "I am the way, truth and the life" We believe Jesus. You don't; instead, you read into it saying: "He was the truth for his time," but that is not what He said or meant.
Moreover, God said, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well please, hear ye Him" You read into this by blatantly saying Jesus is not the son of God or you try to justify the Quran by saying "God has sons by the tons" like Naik & Deedat said as to mean or say Jesus is nothing special.

Your leaders don't teach the Bible or waste their time. That is so sad to say the least. Your leaders go against even Allah of the Koran. Qur'an 5:68 Say: 'People of the Scripture Book! You have no ground to stand upon unless you observe the Taurat [Torah], the Injeel [Gospel], and all the Revelation that has come to you from your Lord.' It is certain to increase their rebellion and blasphemy. But grieve you not over unbelieving people."
If Allah says we should read it and observe why wouldn't you? If that is not proof enough for you, look at this verse in your Holy Koran that your leaders come against: Qur'an 5:48 "To you [Christians] We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah has revealed."

So your leaders teach you that man's power to corrupt is greater than God's power to preserve? What a joke. You accuse me of rambling? Pfft. Look at the verses that assure us of God's word being established forever like it says in Psalms: We have God's promise also that He will watch over and preserve His word, and that He will not let His followers be led astray in: -Isa 55:10-11; 59:21; 1 Peter 1:24-25, Mt 24:35.

Finally, you mention you don’t trust the Bible 100%. Well, there is only one thing I can accept from the Koran, that is the verses that tell you to observe the torah and gospels. I don’t trust the Koran, because it is truly corrupted. For instance, 'Umar "stabilized" the Qur'an in 644 A.D. al-Tabari vol.39 p.22-23

"Most Muslims believe the Qur'an is an exact copy of a tablet of the Qur'an [in Heaven] in Sura 85:20-22. But consider the following points.

1. It is strange that even in the temporary verses in the Qur'an that Muslims agree Mohammed said were abrogated, are stored for all time in Heaven. They are still in the Qur'an today.

2. Many Muslims are not aware that the Sahih Muslim Hadiths record an extra Sura that is not in the Qur'an today. Muslim apologists claim this too was abrogated, but it is not in today's Qur'an.

3. 'Ubai's early copies of the Qur'an did not contain two Suras that are in the Qur'an today.

4. 'Abdallah ibn Mas'ud was one of the four people Mohammed said to learn the Qur'an from. Yet Al-Nuri lists verses in Ibn Mas'ud's version that are not in the Qur'an today.

5. Satan always throws something in with a prophet's words according to Sura 22:52, but God has to cancel it out. This might be an explanation for why four different Muslim historical sources report that Sura 53:19-20 originally said the intercession (help) of four idol goddesses was to be hoped for.

6. 'Uthman also made changes to standardize the Qur'an, but that is the topic of the next part.

When the Watergate Scandal hit America, the guilty people were not only the ones who stole the Watergate documents, but also the ones who covered it up. While the previous tract discussed many changes in the Qur'an, this tract discusses not just changes but also the cover-up by the Caliph 'Uthman. He threatened anyone with death if they did not turn in their Qur'an to him, so that he could burn them and re-issue new Qur'ans. Fortunately some early copies were not turned in, and we can see some of the changes that were made.

In Bukhari vol.6:525,526 Qatada and Anas relate that in the time of the prophet [i.e. before 'Uthman's rule], four people "collected" the Qur'an: Ubai, Mu'adh, Zaid bin Thabit, and Abu Zaid.

In Bukhari vol.1 chapter 8 p.56: "Anas says that Uthman got the Qur'an compiled and sent a few of its copies to far off places". Bukhari vol.4:709 p.466 says, "'Uthman called Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Sa'id bin Al-'As, and 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Harith bin Hisham and then they wrote the manuscripts of the Holy Qur'an in the form of a book in several copies".

The Qur'an used to have many different readings, but 'Uthman got rid of all but one. al-Tabari vol.15 p.156

Muslims claim that God's Word, the Qur'an, will never be corrupted. Be that as it may, apparently some years after Mohammed's death, the Qur'an needed standardizing, since Caliph 'Uthman standardized the Qur'an way after Mohammed's death. Apparently in order that nobody could second-guess his editing, he burned almost all copies besides his standard ones. (Bukhari vol.6:510 p.479) For example, Ubai had several Suras in his Qur'an that 'Uthman omitted from the standardized text, and thus Muslims do not read today. The Meccan Abdollah Sarh, who once made suggestions to Mohammed, and later renounced Islam, was killed. Presumably he knew too much about how Mohammed changed the Qur'an. However, a few very interesting variant copies did survive and are now in the Azhyar Library in Cairo.

The 8th sura (al-Anfal) may have originally included the 9th sura (al-Tawbah). al-Tabari vol.11 p.94 footnote 525

A Need for Standardizing ???

Now if the Bukhari Hadiths vol.1:62, vol.4:709, and vol.6:510 are reliable at all, one has to ask why this occurred; Muslims typically do not go around destroying copies of the Qur'an.

? Why did 'Uthman have to burn other copies, unless the other copies were different?

? Why did 'Uthman need to standardize the Qur'an, unless it needed standardizing?

? Why did 'Uthman threaten death to make Muslims use the "Uthmanized" Qur'an?

? Why did some Muslims reject 'Uthman's text in favor of their own text of the Qur'an?

There is a simple answer to these questions. 'Uthman had to edit The Qur'an because there was not just one text. (Let's call a spade a spade friend)

1. In contrast to this, 'Uthman destroyed all but a few of the early Qur'an manuscripts, so "his tracks are covered."

2. His tracks are not completely covered because of the manuscripts of Ubai and others. (See Bukhari vol.6:527 p.489 for Ubai being the best at reciting the Qur'an, yet they leave some of what he recites.)

3. His tracks are not completely covered because of the words of 'Aisha and some Shi'ite Muslims.

4. Many Sunni Muslims have never thought to ask, "is the Qur'an they have the same as the original Qur'an?"

Some Shi'ite Muslims give an additional reason though. They say 'Uthman left out 25% of the original verses for political reasons. See McClintock and Strong Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature 5:152. This is interesting, because most Sunnis still accept Shi'ites as Muslims.

According to Mohammed's wife 'Aisha, one Sura had 200 verses. By 'Uthman's time, it only had 73. One can read this in the book Islam p.191ff by the skeptic Guillaume.

Finally, the Qur'an Sunni Muslims use today is based on the Ibn Masud Codex, which is NOT identical with 'Uthman's work. According to Geisler and Saleeb: Answering Islam p.192 there are 150 differences in Sura 2 alone, including complete sentences!

Even today, there are differences in Arabic versions of the Qur'an. For example, in Answering Islam p.193 point out some Arabic discrepancies: Sura 28:48 [sahirani/sihrani], Sura 32:6 [ummahatuhum/ummahatuhum wa hyua abun lahum] Sura 34:18 [rabbana ba'id/rabuna ba'ada], Sura 38:22 [tis'un/tis'atun]. Sura 19:35 [tantaruna/yamtaruna]. See W. St. Clair-Tisdell A Manual of the Leading Muhammedan Objections to Christianity (London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, 1904 p.60.). There are also significant differences between the 'Uthman's Qur'an and the Qur'an used today. Why the changes, and when will they change it back?"

You speak of my not being logical & babbling, so I am trying to appeal to your sense of logic. If this logical true research doesn't do it for you, then, what will? Allah is the best deceiver and you will work for him all your life and he will turn you into a Christless eternity. You can't trust him. He deceives about how forgiving and merciful he is. IMHO, Islam’s Allah is Satan. Even Bakr said he wouldn't feel secure with Allah even if he had one foot in paradise and one on earth.

Last point, I have proved to you why & how the Quran is corrupted; prove to me the Bible is and when it happened!

PBUY and may you come to the knowledge of truth!

[LaaIlahaIllAllah]

Dear Brother of Humanity:

Now, even though I am tempted, I won't say that you're babbling or deaf, dumb and blind like you say of me (rude), but I will say all your points had been addressed as well. This is not necessarily addressed to you; unless, you want it to be. I am requoting some things I already wrote since you must have missed it.

First of all, what can be read into Jesus saying, "I am the way, truth and the life?" Christians don't read into that. Muslims do, and I can tell you again exactly how. Muslims say Jesus meant he was the truth for His time like Moses, Abraham, and Muhammad was for theirs. They shouldn't put Muhammad's name in there, because he is not a confirmed prophet, but that is another topic.

Let’s look at how Muslim read into what Jesus said. Jesus didn't say, I show the way, truth and the life like other prophets. He said, "I am the way, truth and the life" We believe Jesus. You don't; instead, you read into it saying: "He was the truth for his time," but that is not what He said or meant.
Moreover, God said, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well please, hear ye Him" You read into this by blatantly saying Jesus is not the son of God or you try to justify the Quran by saying "God has sons by the tons" like Naik & Deedat said as to mean or say Jesus is nothing special.

Your leaders don't teach the Bible or waste their time. That is so sad to say the least. Your leaders go against even Allah of the Koran. Qur'an 5:68 Say: 'People of the Scripture Book! You have no ground to stand upon unless you observe the Taurat [Torah], the Injeel [Gospel], and all the Revelation that has come to you from your Lord.' It is certain to increase their rebellion and blasphemy. But grieve you not over unbelieving people."
If Allah says we should read it and observe why wouldn't you? If that is not proof enough for you, look at this verse in your Holy Koran that your leaders come against: Qur'an 5:48 "To you [Christians] We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah has revealed."

So your leaders teach you that man's power to corrupt is greater than God's power to preserve? What a joke. You accuse me of rambling? Pfft. Look at the verses that assure us of God's word being established forever like it says in Psalms: We have God's promise also that He will watch over and preserve His word, and that He will not let His followers be led astray in: -Isa 55:10-11; 59:21; 1 Peter 1:24-25, Mt 24:35.

Finally, you mention you don’t trust the Bible 100%. Well, there is only one thing I can accept from the Koran, that is the verses that tell you to observe the torah and gospels. I don’t trust the Koran, because it is truly corrupted. For instance, 'Umar "stabilized" the Qur'an in 644 A.D. al-Tabari vol.39 p.22-23

"Most Muslims believe the Qur'an is an exact copy of a tablet of the Qur'an [in Heaven] in Sura 85:20-22. But consider the following points.

1. It is strange that even in the temporary verses in the Qur'an that Muslims agree Mohammed said were abrogated, are stored for all time in Heaven. They are still in the Qur'an today.

2. Many Muslims are not aware that the Sahih Muslim Hadiths record an extra Sura that is not in the Qur'an today. Muslim apologists claim this too was abrogated, but it is not in today's Qur'an.

3. 'Ubai's early copies of the Qur'an did not contain two Suras that are in the Qur'an today.

4. 'Abdallah ibn Mas'ud was one of the four people Mohammed said to learn the Qur'an from. Yet Al-Nuri lists verses in Ibn Mas'ud's version that are not in the Qur'an today.

5. Satan always throws something in with a prophet's words according to Sura 22:52, but God has to cancel it out. This might be an explanation for why four different Muslim historical sources report that Sura 53:19-20 originally said the intercession (help) of four idol goddesses was to be hoped for.

6. 'Uthman also made changes to standardize the Qur'an, but that is the topic of the next part.

When the Watergate Scandal hit America, the guilty people were not only the ones who stole the Watergate documents, but also the ones who covered it up. While the previous tract discussed many changes in the Qur'an, this tract discusses not just changes but also the cover-up by the Caliph 'Uthman. He threatened anyone with death if they did not turn in their Qur'an to him, so that he could burn them and re-issue new Qur'ans. Fortunately some early copies were not turned in, and we can see some of the changes that were made.

In Bukhari vol.6:525,526 Qatada and Anas relate that in the time of the prophet [i.e. before 'Uthman's rule], four people "collected" the Qur'an: Ubai, Mu'adh, Zaid bin Thabit, and Abu Zaid.

In Bukhari vol.1 chapter 8 p.56: "Anas says that Uthman got the Qur'an compiled and sent a few of its copies to far off places". Bukhari vol.4:709 p.466 says, "'Uthman called Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Sa'id bin Al-'As, and 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Harith bin Hisham and then they wrote the manuscripts of the Holy Qur'an in the form of a book in several copies".

The Qur'an used to have many different readings, but 'Uthman got rid of all but one. al-Tabari vol.15 p.156

Muslims claim that God's Word, the Qur'an, will never be corrupted. Be that as it may, apparently some years after Mohammed's death, the Qur'an needed standardizing, since Caliph 'Uthman standardized the Qur'an way after Mohammed's death. Apparently in order that nobody could second-guess his editing, he burned almost all copies besides his standard ones. (Bukhari vol.6:510 p.479) For example, Ubai had several Suras in his Qur'an that 'Uthman omitted from the standardized text, and thus Muslims do not read today. The Meccan Abdollah Sarh, who once made suggestions to Mohammed, and later renounced Islam, was killed. Presumably he knew too much about how Mohammed changed the Qur'an. However, a few very interesting variant copies did survive and are now in the Azhyar Library in Cairo.

The 8th sura (al-Anfal) may have originally included the 9th sura (al-Tawbah). al-Tabari vol.11 p.94 footnote 525

A Need for Standardizing ???

Now if the Bukhari Hadiths vol.1:62, vol.4:709, and vol.6:510 are reliable at all, one has to ask why this occurred; Muslims typically do not go around destroying copies of the Qur'an.

? Why did 'Uthman have to burn other copies, unless the other copies were different?

? Why did 'Uthman need to standardize the Qur'an, unless it needed standardizing?

? Why did 'Uthman threaten death to make Muslims use the "Uthmanized" Qur'an?

? Why did some Muslims reject 'Uthman's text in favor of their own text of the Qur'an?

There is a simple answer to these questions. 'Uthman had to edit The Qur'an because there was not just one text. (Let's call a spade a spade friend)

1. In contrast to this, 'Uthman destroyed all but a few of the early Qur'an manuscripts, so "his tracks are covered."

2. His tracks are not completely covered because of the manuscripts of Ubai and others. (See Bukhari vol.6:527 p.489 for Ubai being the best at reciting the Qur'an, yet they leave some of what he recites.)

3. His tracks are not completely covered because of the words of 'Aisha and some Shi'ite Muslims.

4. Many Sunni Muslims have never thought to ask, "is the Qur'an they have the same as the original Qur'an?"

Some Shi'ite Muslims give an additional reason though. They say 'Uthman left out 25% of the original verses for political reasons. See McClintock and Strong Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature 5:152. This is interesting, because most Sunnis still accept Shi'ites as Muslims.

According to Mohammed's wife 'Aisha, one Sura had 200 verses. By 'Uthman's time, it only had 73. One can read this in the book Islam p.191ff by the skeptic Guillaume.

Finally, the Qur'an Sunni Muslims use today is based on the Ibn Masud Codex, which is NOT identical with 'Uthman's work. According to Geisler and Saleeb: Answering Islam p.192 there are 150 differences in Sura 2 alone, including complete sentences!

Even today, there are differences in Arabic versions of the Qur'an. For example, in Answering Islam p.193 point out some Arabic discrepancies: Sura 28:48 [sahirani/sihrani], Sura 32:6 [ummahatuhum/ummahatuhum wa hyua abun lahum] Sura 34:18 [rabbana ba'id/rabuna ba'ada], Sura 38:22 [tis'un/tis'atun]. Sura 19:35 [tantaruna/yamtaruna]. See W. St. Clair-Tisdell A Manual of the Leading Muhammedan Objections to Christianity (London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, 1904 p.60.). There are also significant differences between the 'Uthman's Qur'an and the Qur'an used today. Why the changes, and when will they change it back?"

You speak of my not being logical & babbling, so I am trying to appeal to your sense of logic. If this logical true research doesn't do it for you, then, what will? Allah is the best deceiver and you will work for him all your life and he will turn you into a Christless eternity. You can't trust him. He deceives about how forgiving and merciful he is. IMHO, Islam’s Allah is Satan. Even Bakr said he wouldn't feel secure with Allah even if he had one foot in paradise and one on earth.

Last point, I have proved to you why & how the Quran is corrupted; prove to me the Bible is and when it happened!

PBUY and may you come to the knowledge of truth!

Your reply is basically divided b/w a response to me on the alleged words of prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, and some stuff about the Quran, some of which you repeated from before lol.

The first part, is also repeating and everything is explained and answered in my post.
____________________
Edit: just in case you misunderstand this - I mean my post before this and not this one.
____________________

But just wanna comment on some short stuff: The Injeel and Taurat are not changed. The Injeel and Taurat are still the Word of God and always will be. The thing is, what we have of the Bible is NOT the Injeel, Taurat, Zabur and the other revelations sent to the prophets. Even though the Bible contains some of it, the parts themselves cannot be called Injeel and Taurat because much of what is written is OTHER than what was revealed.
Just cause somebody writes something and says its the Taurat, doesn't mean it's the Taurat and doesn't mean that the Taurat is corrupted/changed, it's just a totally different thing.

And where you said something along the lines of 'its sad you believe that man's power to corrupt is greater than God's power to preserve', this would be true if Islam actually taught that God wanted to preserve the past revelations. Also, it is obvious that He didn't when there are thousands of drastically different versions of the Bible. Some with verses added, taken out, w/e. Also another reason it's obvious they weren't preserved is cause we don't have the Gospel of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him. Only minor parts of it from quotes found in the NT.


Second is stuff about Quran and Islam.

So..


Points 1 and 2 are about abrogation... Like.. What is there to say? It was abrogated... Dunno what your point here is really.

Points 3 and 4 are about some of the companions', may God be pleased with them, mushafs of the Quran but claims that this is a reason that Quran is not preserved and is corrupted is faulty and have been refuted thousands of times over. I mean you can just do a Google search to find this stuff...

Anyways, one point in the refutations that I found funny was that both of these companions didn't include some chapters but they did recite them in the prayers so obviously they did see it as part of the Quran, cause that's what we do in prayer.

For rest you can go to sites like letmeturnthetables - search that on google, and many many other places out there.

point 5 is this so called, "Satanic Verses" incident which I'm pretty sure I refuted you on a different thread somewhere on this site. I'll try to find which thread it was on then I'll post it.


And the rest is basically about Uthman, may Allah be pleased with him, and the ahruf of the Quran.

To answer basically all the rest of your questions (and some things at the end which you call discrepancies):

the Quran was revealed in 7 ahruf. Some people say it is dialects but this is incorrect, it is more like different styles so whatever was easiest for the people they do that. It's not like versions of the Bible where one has one verse and other does not, no. It's different words for the same thing, for example there is one verse where it says on the Day of Judgement, the mountains will break and be like wool. In the different ahruf there was 2 different words for wool there b/c some Arabs spoke differently and they would not understand.

Later on, Uthman (ra) made the standard one the first the prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) received (then he asked for more until he got 7 - there's a hadeeth about this). He did this after Islam was starting to spread through the land and into non-Arab countries so that there would not be confusion b/w the styles and those people who don't speak Arabic. This benefited the Ummah greatly, Alhamdulillah.

Also, on top of that 7 ahruf there are 10 (not 100% if it's 10) qir'aat. Which are recitations of the Quran - which you mention some differences in the recitation. Just like the top-level authentic ahadeeth go back in chains to the prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, so do the qir'aat. And they still sell the different qir'aat even today. Adding to the differences you mentioned, there are things like alayhim and alayhum.

Conclusion: None of the things mentioned are corruptions of the Quran whether it's abrogations, some companions not having some chapters in their mushaf, 7 ahruf, 10 qir'aat, etc. The only one that might seem like it was changed are the mushafs of these companions - and also others you mention later on - but as I said there it is proven that these companions DID in fact see the parts they left out as verses of the Quran by reciting them in the prayer - and many more points you can search for yourself. Secondly, some of these are just straight up lies and even though they are 'recorded', many of these ahadeeth are found to be fabricated, as they have non-existing chains of narration - one ex. the people in chain have never met in their life. And the ahruf and qir'aat were approved by the messenger of God, peace and blessings be upon him. And abrogations were made by the command of God either through revelation or making the order to His prophet and hence the Sunnah.

And some Shias just say so because their religion has no basis otherwise, similar to the actions and words of many deviant, innovated sects.

O and the Satanic Verses thing which hopefully you will also try to look for on this site yourself - for my refutation - cause I don't wanna spend all day searching for stuff for you....
______________________________________

It makes me sad that these Christian missionaries are using deceit to fool the ignorant Christian masses that the Quran is corrupted by things like the ahruf and qir'aat. Even though they know about them and that they are revealed by God (or introduced by sayyidna Muhammad, pbuh, if you/they don't believe God sent it) they try to pass it off as corruptions and distortions that came after the prophet, pbuh, to their unknowing audience. It is very sad indeed.
____________

also you should Google sites like letmeturnthetables and answering Christianity - not to see proof against Christianity but to see refutations for the claims of missionaries such as the Quran being corrupted for whatever reason. And i'm pretty sure both were made as responses to the deceit of other sites and not to start the conflict first but as a defense and then offence.

[Burninglight]

Dear Brother of Humanity:

Now, even though I am tempted, I won't say that you're babbling or deaf, dumb and blind like you say of me (rude), but I will say all your points had been addressed as well. This is not necessarily addressed to you; unless, you want it to be. I am requoting some things I already wrote since you must have missed it.

First of all, what can be read into Jesus saying, "I am the way, truth and the life?" Christians don't read into that. Muslims do, and I can tell you again exactly how. Muslims say Jesus meant he was the truth for His time like Moses, Abraham, and Muhammad was for theirs. They shouldn't put Muhammad's name in there, because he is not a confirmed prophet, but that is another topic.

Let’s look at how Muslim read into what Jesus said. Jesus didn't say, I show the way, truth and the life like other prophets. He said, "I am the way, truth and the life" We believe Jesus. You don't; instead, you read into it saying: "He was the truth for his time," but that is not what He said or meant.
Moreover, God said, "This is my beloved son in whom I am well please, hear ye Him" You read into this by blatantly saying Jesus is not the son of God or you try to justify the Quran by saying "God has sons by the tons" like Naik & Deedat said as to mean or say Jesus is nothing special.

Your leaders don't teach the Bible or waste their time. That is so sad to say the least. Your leaders go against even Allah of the Koran. Qur'an 5:68 Say: 'People of the Scripture Book! You have no ground to stand upon unless you observe the Taurat [Torah], the Injeel [Gospel], and all the Revelation that has come to you from your Lord.' It is certain to increase their rebellion and blasphemy. But grieve you not over unbelieving people."
If Allah says we should read it and observe why wouldn't you? If that is not proof enough for you, look at this verse in your Holy Koran that your leaders come against: Qur'an 5:48 "To you [Christians] We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah has revealed."

So your leaders teach you that man's power to corrupt is greater than God's power to preserve? What a joke. You accuse me of rambling? Pfft. Look at the verses that assure us of God's word being established forever like it says in Psalms: We have God's promise also that He will watch over and preserve His word, and that He will not let His followers be led astray in: -Isa 55:10-11; 59:21; 1 Peter 1:24-25, Mt 24:35.

Finally, you mention you don’t trust the Bible 100%. Well, there is only one thing I can accept from the Koran, that is the verses that tell you to observe the torah and gospels. I don’t trust the Koran, because it is truly corrupted. For instance, 'Umar "stabilized" the Qur'an in 644 A.D. al-Tabari vol.39 p.22-23

"Most Muslims believe the Qur'an is an exact copy of a tablet of the Qur'an [in Heaven] in Sura 85:20-22. But consider the following points.

1. It is strange that even in the temporary verses in the Qur'an that Muslims agree Mohammed said were abrogated, are stored for all time in Heaven. They are still in the Qur'an today.

2. Many Muslims are not aware that the Sahih Muslim Hadiths record an extra Sura that is not in the Qur'an today. Muslim apologists claim this too was abrogated, but it is not in today's Qur'an.

3. 'Ubai's early copies of the Qur'an did not contain two Suras that are in the Qur'an today.

4. 'Abdallah ibn Mas'ud was one of the four people Mohammed said to learn the Qur'an from. Yet Al-Nuri lists verses in Ibn Mas'ud's version that are not in the Qur'an today.

5. Satan always throws something in with a prophet's words according to Sura 22:52, but God has to cancel it out. This might be an explanation for why four different Muslim historical sources report that Sura 53:19-20 originally said the intercession (help) of four idol goddesses was to be hoped for.

6. 'Uthman also made changes to standardize the Qur'an, but that is the topic of the next part.

When the Watergate Scandal hit America, the guilty people were not only the ones who stole the Watergate documents, but also the ones who covered it up. While the previous tract discussed many changes in the Qur'an, this tract discusses not just changes but also the cover-up by the Caliph 'Uthman. He threatened anyone with death if they did not turn in their Qur'an to him, so that he could burn them and re-issue new Qur'ans. Fortunately some early copies were not turned in, and we can see some of the changes that were made.

In Bukhari vol.6:525,526 Qatada and Anas relate that in the time of the prophet [i.e. before 'Uthman's rule], four people "collected" the Qur'an: Ubai, Mu'adh, Zaid bin Thabit, and Abu Zaid.

In Bukhari vol.1 chapter 8 p.56: "Anas says that Uthman got the Qur'an compiled and sent a few of its copies to far off places". Bukhari vol.4:709 p.466 says, "'Uthman called Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Sa'id bin Al-'As, and 'Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Harith bin Hisham and then they wrote the manuscripts of the Holy Qur'an in the form of a book in several copies".

The Qur'an used to have many different readings, but 'Uthman got rid of all but one. al-Tabari vol.15 p.156

Muslims claim that God's Word, the Qur'an, will never be corrupted. Be that as it may, apparently some years after Mohammed's death, the Qur'an needed standardizing, since Caliph 'Uthman standardized the Qur'an way after Mohammed's death. Apparently in order that nobody could second-guess his editing, he burned almost all copies besides his standard ones. (Bukhari vol.6:510 p.479) For example, Ubai had several Suras in his Qur'an that 'Uthman omitted from the standardized text, and thus Muslims do not read today. The Meccan Abdollah Sarh, who once made suggestions to Mohammed, and later renounced Islam, was killed. Presumably he knew too much about how Mohammed changed the Qur'an. However, a few very interesting variant copies did survive and are now in the Azhyar Library in Cairo.

The 8th sura (al-Anfal) may have originally included the 9th sura (al-Tawbah). al-Tabari vol.11 p.94 footnote 525

A Need for Standardizing ???

Now if the Bukhari Hadiths vol.1:62, vol.4:709, and vol.6:510 are reliable at all, one has to ask why this occurred; Muslims typically do not go around destroying copies of the Qur'an.

? Why did 'Uthman have to burn other copies, unless the other copies were different?

? Why did 'Uthman need to standardize the Qur'an, unless it needed standardizing?

? Why did 'Uthman threaten death to make Muslims use the "Uthmanized" Qur'an?

? Why did some Muslims reject 'Uthman's text in favor of their own text of the Qur'an?

There is a simple answer to these questions. 'Uthman had to edit The Qur'an because there was not just one text. (Let's call a spade a spade friend)

1. In contrast to this, 'Uthman destroyed all but a few of the early Qur'an manuscripts, so "his tracks are covered."

2. His tracks are not completely covered because of the manuscripts of Ubai and others. (See Bukhari vol.6:527 p.489 for Ubai being the best at reciting the Qur'an, yet they leave some of what he recites.)

3. His tracks are not completely covered because of the words of 'Aisha and some Shi'ite Muslims.

4. Many Sunni Muslims have never thought to ask, "is the Qur'an they have the same as the original Qur'an?"

Some Shi'ite Muslims give an additional reason though. They say 'Uthman left out 25% of the original verses for political reasons. See McClintock and Strong Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature 5:152. This is interesting, because most Sunnis still accept Shi'ites as Muslims.

According to Mohammed's wife 'Aisha, one Sura had 200 verses. By 'Uthman's time, it only had 73. One can read this in the book Islam p.191ff by the skeptic Guillaume.

Finally, the Qur'an Sunni Muslims use today is based on the Ibn Masud Codex, which is NOT identical with 'Uthman's work. According to Geisler and Saleeb: Answering Islam p.192 there are 150 differences in Sura 2 alone, including complete sentences!

Even today, there are differences in Arabic versions of the Qur'an. For example, in Answering Islam p.193 point out some Arabic discrepancies: Sura 28:48 [sahirani/sihrani], Sura 32:6 [ummahatuhum/ummahatuhum wa hyua abun lahum] Sura 34:18 [rabbana ba'id/rabuna ba'ada], Sura 38:22 [tis'un/tis'atun]. Sura 19:35 [tantaruna/yamtaruna]. See W. St. Clair-Tisdell A Manual of the Leading Muhammedan Objections to Christianity (London: Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, 1904 p.60.). There are also significant differences between the 'Uthman's Qur'an and the Qur'an used today. Why the changes, and when will they change it back?"

You speak of my not being logical & babbling, so I am trying to appeal to your sense of logic. If this logical true research doesn't do it for you, then, what will? Allah is the best deceiver and you will work for him all your life and he will turn you into a Christless eternity. You can't trust him. He deceives about how forgiving and merciful he is. IMHO, Islam’s Allah is Satan. Even Bakr said he wouldn't feel secure with Allah even if he had one foot in paradise and one on earth.

Last point, I have proved to you why & how the Quran is corrupted; prove to me the Bible is and when it happened!

PBUY and may you come to the knowledge of truth!

Your reply is basically divided b/w a response to me on the alleged words of prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, and some stuff about the Quran, some of which you repeated from before lol.

The first part, is also repeating and everything is explained and answered in my post.
____________________
Edit: just in case you misunderstand this - I mean my post before this and not this one.
____________________

But just wanna comment on some short stuff: The Injeel and Taurat are not changed. The Injeel and Taurat are still the Word of God and always will be. The thing is, what we have of the Bible is NOT the Injeel, Taurat, Zabur and the other revelations sent to the prophets. Even though the Bible contains some of it, the parts themselves cannot be called Injeel and Taurat because much of what is written is OTHER than what was revealed.
Just cause somebody writes something and says its the Taurat, doesn't mean it's the Taurat and doesn't mean that the Taurat is corrupted/changed, it's just a totally different thing.

And where you said something along the lines of 'its sad you believe that man's power to corrupt is greater than God's power to preserve', this would be true if Islam actually taught that God wanted to preserve the past revelations. Also, it is obvious that He didn't when there are thousands of drastically different versions of the Bible. Some with verses added, taken out, w/e. Also another reason it's obvious they weren't preserved is cause we don't have the Gospel of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him. Only minor parts of it from quotes found in the NT.


Second is stuff about Quran and Islam.

So..


Points 1 and 2 are about abrogation... Like.. What is there to say? It was abrogated... Dunno what your point here is really.

Points 3 and 4 are about some of the companions', may God be pleased with them, mushafs of the Quran but claims that this is a reason that Quran is not preserved and is corrupted is faulty and have been refuted thousands of times over. I mean you can just do a Google search to find this stuff...

Anyways, one point in the refutations that I found funny was that both of these companions didn't include some chapters but they did recite them in the prayers so obviously they did see it as part of the Quran, cause that's what we do in prayer.

For rest you can go to sites like letmeturnthetables - search that on google, and many many other places out there.

point 5 is this so called, "Satanic Verses" incident which I'm pretty sure I refuted you on a different thread somewhere on this site. I'll try to find which thread it was on then I'll post it.


And the rest is basically about Uthman, may Allah be pleased with him, and the ahruf of the Quran.

To answer basically all the rest of your questions (and some things at the end which you call discrepancies):

the Quran was revealed in 7 ahruf. Some people say it is dialects but this is incorrect, it is more like different styles so whatever was easiest for the people they do that. It's not like versions of the Bible where one has one verse and other does not, no. It's different words for the same thing, for example there is one verse where it says on the Day of Judgement, the mountains will break and be like wool. In the different ahruf there was 2 different words for wool there b/c some Arabs spoke differently and they would not understand.

Later on, Uthman (ra) made the standard one the first the prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) received (then he asked for more until he got 7 - there's a hadeeth about this). He did this after Islam was starting to spread through the land and into non-Arab countries so that there would not be confusion b/w the styles and those people who don't speak Arabic. This benefited the Ummah greatly, Alhamdulillah.

Also, on top of that 7 ahruf there are 10 (not 100% if it's 10) qir'aat. Which are recitations of the Quran - which you mention some differences in the recitation. Just like the top-level authentic ahadeeth go back in chains to the prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, so do the qir'aat. And they still sell the different qir'aat even today. Adding to the differences you mentioned, there are things like alayhim and alayhum.

Conclusion: None of the things mentioned are corruptions of the Quran whether it's abrogations, some companions not having some chapters in their mushaf, 7 ahruf, 10 qir'aat, etc. The only one that might seem like it was changed are the mushafs of these companions - and also others you mention later on - but as I said there it is proven that these companions DID in fact see the parts they left out as verses of the Quran by reciting them in the prayer - and many more points you can search for yourself. Secondly, some of these are just straight up lies and even though they are 'recorded', many of these ahadeeth are found to be fabricated, as they have non-existing chains of narration - one ex. the people in chain have never met in their life. And the ahruf and qir'aat were approved by the messenger of God, peace and blessings be upon him. And abrogations were made by the command of God either through revelation or making the order to His prophet and hence the Sunnah.

And some Shias just say so because their religion has no basis otherwise, similar to the actions and words of many deviant, innovated sects.

O and the Satanic Verses thing which hopefully you will also try to look for on this site yourself - for my refutation - cause I don't wanna spend all day searching for stuff for you....
______________________________________

It makes me sad that these Christian missionaries are using deceit to fool the ignorant Christian masses that the Quran is corrupted by things like the ahruf and qir'aat. Even though they know about them and that they are revealed by God (or introduced by sayyidna Muhammad, pbuh, if you/they don't believe God sent it) they try to pass it off as corruptions and distortions that came after the prophet, pbuh, to their unknowing audience. It is very sad indeed.
____________

also you should Google sites like letmeturnthetables and answering Christianity - not to see proof against Christianity but to see refutations for the claims of missionaries such as the Quran being corrupted for whatever reason. And i'm pretty sure both were made as responses to the deceit of other sites and not to start the conflict first but as a defense and then offence.

Okay, about the different versions, that does not mean wholesale corruption; some versions are better than others. There are always the copies from the originals that the Jews copied and the Greeks copied to compare and contrast. There are thousands of copies. Unlike in Islam we didn't burn any of them.

There is no proof that the gospel according to Jesus Christ ever existed. I believe the Injeel is the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Muslim cannot handle the truth in there so they say the Injeel is some lost account. That is simply not truth! Besides, you not only disbelieve the Bible you don't even believe your Quran that states: Qur'an 5:48 "To you [Christians] We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah has revealed."

We still have the same torah and gospels Allah spoke of (Really Muhammad's demon) during Muhammad's time. So tell me, if you can, where and when did the Bible become corrupted? You have no answers. So don't be sad along with your friend that Christians are sharing truth (Not Lies) with people who haven't made up their minds yet!

Moreover, look at Qur'an 5:47 "Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. If any fail to judge by what Allah has revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel." So, I judge The QURAN IS CORRUPTED, BECAUSE IT FAILS TO CONFIRM THE SCRIPTURE THAT CAME BEFORE. I JUDGE IT AS I AM A PERSON OF THE GOSPEL!

It just comes down to what we are willing to believe out of all the things we hear or read, but let me say:

"1. We have manuscripts of the New Testament dated c.127 A.D, c.150 A.D., and c.200 A.D., as well as recently released copies with the Dead Sea Scrolls dated before 100 A.D.

2. We have 10,000 other manuscripts of the New Testament to compare. Scribal errors did occur, but with 10,000 manuscripts, we can track these errors. The evidence would be weaker, not stronger, if there had been a "Christian 'Uthman" to burn them.

3. The early church writers (from 97/98 A.D. to 325 A.D.) referred to every single verse in the New Testament except around 17.

4. We have copies of the Greek translation of the Old Testament, Dead Sea Scrolls of almost all of the Old Testament dated at the time of Christ, and Christ's use of Old Testament quotes.

5. As I mentioned, we have God's promise that He will watch over and preserve His word, and that He will not let His followers be led astray. -Isa 55:10-11; 59:21; 1 Peter 1:24-25, Mt 24:35

6. Christian scholars are very keen to examine all the evidence and be as precise as possible in what the original wording was.

Christians and all seekers of truth should welcome questioning the reliability of today's Bible. But rather than asking, "what is its reliability", one should also ask "what its reliability is being compared to."
Finally, what you say to address my points to not satisfy and do not seem logical enough of an explanation that is why I continue to use it in my arguments. I know from the Quran that Allah is a deceiver and I know he proves it. He tricks people into believing Jesus died. Allah couldn't see that his stupid trick would start a religion bigger that Islam. The truth is Allah is an agent of Satan in not Satan himself that really wants people to believe that Jesus didn't die for the remission of our sin so he could claim us for eternity away from God. That is his sole mission and he is good at it. It is working on most of the people in the world including most Christians are deceived and not just Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Hindus and atheists.

So, I see Allah as an ignorant, deceiving trickster who didn't know His trick (Jesus' supposed death) would overcome Islam with Christianity, and he didn't know what true Bible believing Christians believe about the trinity.

Any person with half a brain can infer that Allah thought the trinity consisted of the father, son and Mary. Allah is not all knowing; he is not all present; and he is not all powerful.
I have more power than he in Jesus' name (That's than Islam's Allah) and the Lord rebuke him this day in your eyes in Jesus' Name! It is written: "Jesus will receive the reward of His suffering" and I will be satisfied to see that day for "Every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the father." That's the father the Muslims don't presently know!

Christians that are considering Islam don't do it. Get informed. Islam greatest enemy is knowledge and truth; its greatest ally is ignorance and deception. There are very intelligent Muslims that are wilfully ignorant about God's will in the Bible like Deedat was. Learn from his demise and judgment from God! Mark my words. If Naik continues, he is next and all who persist in Islam! The god of Islam is not the same God of the Bible!

[Asher]

PBUY All;
Hope that you answer my previous reply when you have time;
But for now I would like to address your points;

Okay, about the different versions, that does not mean wholesale corruption; some versions are better than others. There are always the copies from the originals that the Jews copied and the Greeks copied to compare and contrast. There are thousands of copies. Unlike in Islam we didn't burn any of them.

That is your claim, the Jews confess that they do not even have a copy(*5{even more}) of the Original Scriptures;
I don't know why then the christians claim to have them; When the original owners were the Jews;
Unlike the bible the Qu'ran doesnot have different versions they were the same;
Uthman burned them to avoid comfusion of pronounciation because of the vowels;
Vowels were added to the Hebrew bible too if you count this as being a modification for the Qu'ran so it should be for the bible:
'A group called the "Masoretes" (often dated to the ninth century C.E.) recorded and annotated what has become the "authentic" version of the Hebrew Scriptures. Their work is recognized today by Jewish religious leaders as being authentic. This group's name comes from Hebrew word "MESORAH" which is ultimately from the verb "MASAR", meaning "to hand down". The leaders and Rabbis who busied themselves with the "MASORAH" were called the "MASORETES". The oldest copy of the Hebrew Bible still in existence today is about 1000 years old.'
If you want to know more type "How the Bible Got It’s Vowels and Punctuation" on google;

There is no proof that the gospel according to Jesus Christ ever existed.

Roman 1:9-->For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
Either the bible lies or You lie as you claim it comes from God;
You are ignorant of what is present in your bible and you tell that muslims are ignorants;

I believe the Injeel is the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

The people who don't believe in God also thinks that they are right;
These Gospels have been chosen from among 120 different Gospels and as you told that "The Bible is a book that records history or information" which means that these histories found in these 4 Gospels have been chosen to be true;

Muslim cannot handle the truth in there so they say the Injeel is some lost account. That is simply not truth!

Again this is your belief;

Besides, you not only disbelieve the Bible you don't even believe your Quran that states: Qur'an 5:48 "To you [Christians] We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah has revealed."

Once again Quote the whole verse:
Qu'ran 5:48--> To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

The 4 Gospels is the disires of those who wanted to make their ideology the truth;
And God wants us not to follow them; That doesnot mean that we don't believe in the Gospel but we don't belive in the book which has been written and said to be the Gospel;
Remember: Taking a Cat and calling it Dog doesnot make the Cat to become a Dog;

We still have the same torah and gospels Allah spoke of (Really Muhammad's demon) during Muhammad's time. So tell me, if you can, where and when did the Bible become corrupted? You have no answers. So don't be sad along with your friend that Christians are sharing truth (Not Lies) with people who haven't made up their minds yet!

Again: Taking a Cat and calling it Dog doesnot make the Cat to become a Dog;
And you should also mention that the Qu'ran curse those who write a book and says that it comes from God;
What the Christians make with the Gospel;

Moreover, look at Qur'an 5:47 "Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. If any fail to judge by what Allah has revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel."

The answer is given in the next verse;

So, I judge The QURAN IS CORRUPTED, BECAUSE IT FAILS TO CONFIRM THE SCRIPTURE THAT CAME BEFORE. I JUDGE IT AS I AM A PERSON OF THE GOSPEL!

You said it fails to confirm the scriptures, when you don't even have to scriptures which were revealed;
You gave judgement when you don't even have witnesses;
More over the end of the verse says that "they are (no better than) those who rebel.";

It just comes down to what we are willing to believe out of all the things we hear or read, but let me say:

"1. We have manuscripts of the New Testament dated c.127 A.D, c.150 A.D., and c.200 A.D., as well as recently released copies with the Dead Sea Scrolls dated before 100 A.D.

"The Bible is a book that records history or information" the one who wrote the bible had not seen crucifiction, neither the Apostles of Jesus(pbuh), nor Paul and they wrote about it;
You should also note that most of the people in the time of supposed crucifiction believe that Jesus was not crucified, as God had revealed in the:
Psalmes 91:
1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.
3 Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare and from the deadly pestilence.
4 He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
5 You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day
6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you.
8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked.
9 If you make the Most High your dwelling— even the LORD, who is my refuge-
10 then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent.
11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways;
12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.
13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent.
14 "Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation."

Afterward when Paul comes and taught original sin and all these things, salvation through crucifiction;
He won the heart of "people who haven't made up their minds yet!" (those who were not sure);

2. We have 10,000 other manuscripts of the New Testament to compare. Scribal errors did occur, but with 10,000 manuscripts, we can track these errors. The evidence would be weaker, not stronger, if there had been a "Christian 'Uthman" to burn them.

Hopefully they'll be able to restore the New Testament before Judgement Day;

3. The early church writers (from 97/98 A.D. to 325 A.D.) referred to every single verse in the New Testament except around 17.

Wikipaedia:Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon

Writings attributed to the Apostles circulated among the earliest Christian communities. The Pauline epistles were circulating, perhaps in collected forms, by the end of the 1st century AD.[3] Justin Martyr, in the mid 2nd century, mentions "memoirs of the apostles" as being read on Sunday alongside the "writings of the prophets".[4] A four gospel canon (the Tetramorph) was asserted by Irenaeus, c. 180, who refers to it directly.[5][6]
By the early 200s, Origen may have been using the same twenty-seven books as in the Catholic New Testament canon, though there were still disputes over the canonicity of the Letter to the Hebrews, James, II Peter, II and III John, and Revelation,[7] known as the Antilegomena. Likewise, the Muratorian fragment is evidence that, perhaps as early as 200, there existed a set of Christian writings somewhat similar to the twenty-seven-book NT canon, which included four gospels and argued against objections to them.[8] Thus, while there was a good measure of debate in the Early Church over the New Testament canon, the major writings are claimed to have been accepted by almost all Christians by the middle of the 3rd century.[9]

In his Easter letter of 367, Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, gave a list of the books that would become the twenty-seven-book NT canon,[10] and he used the word "canonized" (kanonizomena) in regards to them.[11] The first council that accepted the present canon of the New Testament may have been the Synod of Hippo Regius in North Africa (AD 393); the acts of this council, however, are lost.

I wonder if it also contains verses from the apocryphs books;

4. We have copies of the Greek translation of the Old Testament, Dead Sea Scrolls of almost all of the Old Testament dated at the time of Christ, and Christ's use of Old Testament quotes.

Did the Christ use all of them; I'm not even sure that he actually studied the bible since he was Preaching the elders in the synagogue at the age of 12;

5. As I mentioned, we have God's promise that He will watch over and preserve His word, and that He will not let His followers be led astray. -Isa 55:10-11; 59:21; 1 Peter 1:24-25, Mt 24:35

But what happend to the Jew today, they have gone astray and they don't believe in the Sacrifice of Jesus;

Isaiah 55:10-->So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
It has accomplish what God wanted it to accomplish and has prosper for a certain period of time;
But they always rebel towards God;

Isaiah 59:21-->As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
I know no Christian nor no Jew who have passed their words from mouth to mouth as the Muslims do;
From when the Qu'ran was sent people have been transmitting the Qu'ran from mouth to mouth, even today most of the Muslims know the Qu'ran by heart;

1 Peter 1:24-25-->But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
This comes from Peter not from God;
'Luke speaking is not God speaking such as “Thus says the Lord!�'
Same here Peter speaking is not God speaking such as “Thus says the Lord!

Matthew 24:35-->Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Indeed they did not pass(the word of Jesus(pbuh)) the Gospel is neither the word of Jesus(pbuh) nor the Word of God but it contains some quotes from Jesus(pbuh) they are the words of Matthew, Luke, John and Mark;

6. Christian scholars are very keen to examine all the evidence and be as precise as possible in what the original wording was.
Again: Hopefully they'll be able to restore the New Testament before Judgement Day;
You were commenting about Uthman editing the bible standardizing it etc, at least he did not have to merge 10,000 books and tell it came from God, But he had just standardize it in a way that people will understand(not removing errors);

Finally, what you say to address my points to not satisfy and do not seem logical enough of an explanation that is why I continue to use it in my arguments.

Hope that I have satified you with my answers;

I know from the Quran that Allah is a deceiver and I know he proves it. He tricks people into believing Jesus died. Allah couldn't see that his stupid trick would start a religion bigger that Islam.

You should think if a stupid trick have been able to make a religion bigger than Islam, which one is stupid, the trick or those who belive in the trick;

The truth is Allah is an agent of Satan in not Satan himself that really wants people to believe that Jesus didn't die for the remission of our sin so he could claim us for eternity away from God. That is his sole mission and he is good at it.

But I will rather say the opposite it is satan who wanted Christians to believe that Jesus died for you sin;
As you say the sole mission of satan is to claim our soul for eternity away from God:
1) He make us sin;
2) He make Judas sell Jesus(pbuh);
3) He made the Jews to crucify Jesus(pbuh);
It seems like Satan wanted salvation too as he gave salvation to man;

So, I see Allah as an ignorant, deceiving trickster who didn't know His trick (Jesus' supposed death) would overcome Islam with Christianity

Brother Islam has been revealed(in name) 600 A.D and it is still growing opposed to Christianity who is decreasing;
I've told you statistics have proved that in 2025 Islam will be 30% of human population and Christianity will be 25%;
Moreover the more media is trying to suppress Islam the More it's prevailing;

and he didn't know what true Bible believing Christians believe about the trinity.

I've already answered that in my previous reply;

Any person with half a brain can infer that Allah thought the trinity consisted of the father, son and Mary. Allah is not all knowing; he is not all present; and he is not all powerful.

Because the person in question missed the other part of his brain he will not come to the true;
This has already been discussed before in my previous reply;

I have more power than he in Jesus' name (That's than Islam's Allah) and the Lord rebuke him this day in your eyes in Jesus' Name! It is written: "Jesus will receive the reward of His suffering" and I will be satisfied to see that day for "Every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the father." That's the father the Muslims don't presently know!

Many people believe this too, another phrase wrote by man and bring forth as God's word;

Christians that are considering Islam don't do it. Get informed. Islam greatest enemy is knowledge and truth; its greatest ally is ignorance and deception.

Islam greatest enemy is illogical knowledge and illogical truth;
The Christians are those who uses the ignorance of people to teach them about illogical things;

There are very intelligent Muslims that are wilfully ignorant about God's will in the Bible like Deedat was. Learn from his demise and judgment from God! Mark my words. If Naik continues, he is next and all who persist in Islam! The god of Islam is not the same God of the Bible!

You claim yourself as a true Bible believing Christians when you don't even follow the teachings of christianity:
Roman 12:14-->Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

You are telling that our arguments "do not satisfy and do not seem logical enough" when in fact your not smart enough to understand them;
PBUY

[ThatGirlAgain]

You are telling that our arguments "do not satisfy and do not seem logical enough" when in fact your not smart enough to understand them;
PBUY

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[Burninglight]

PBUY All;
Hope that you answer my previous reply when you have time;
But for now I would like to address your points;

Okay, about the different versions, that does not mean wholesale corruption; some versions are better than others. There are always the copies from the originals that the Jews copied and the Greeks copied to compare and contrast. There are thousands of copies. Unlike in Islam we didn't burn any of them.

That is your claim, the Jews confess that they do not even have a copy(*5{even more}) of the Original Scriptures;
I don't know why then the christians claim to have them; When the original owners were the Jews;
Unlike the bible the Qu'ran doesn't have different versions they were the same;
Uthman burned them to avoid comfusion of pronounciation because of the vowels;
Vowels were added to the Hebrew bible too if you count this as being a modification for the Qu'ran so it should be for the bible:
You claim yourself as a true Bible believing Christians when you don't even follow the teachings of christianity:
Roman 12:14-->Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

PBUY

Bless those that persecute you? I don't believe I am being persecuted, I hope God blesses you with the truth. I have cursed no one, but I can tell when someone is being Judged or condemned by God and when someone is disrespectful to me. I find that many Muslim resort to attacking my character when they cannot gainsay, or they'll use lame explanations to justify their believe. In fact, on You tube the owners of videos would block my comments and not allow me to post. I have been on Islamic forums one Muslim left Islam because of my comments thank God for him, and the forum moderators kicked me off.

I sincerely believe that the enemy of Islam is knowledge and truth; its ally is ignorance and deception. Allah boasts of being the best at deception; he calls Himself "the best of deceivers" but he proves he is by making it look like Jesus died; moreover Allah shows profound ignorance about the Christian trinity. He says "say not three" he Questions Jesus Q 5:116 about Mary and Jesus being 2 gods and himself; there is your three he said not to say three about. An intelligent person can infer Allah errs thinking the father, son and mother (Mary) make up the trinity. Again this is further proof that Allah is not the same God of the Bible.

I have found a discrepancies in the Quran that no Muslim can gainsay. So why not serve the Almighty God in the Bible who is the real God and not an impersonating deity like Allah? IMHO, Muhammad had a demon who was impersonating Gabriel. I would put my life on the line that it wasn't Gabriel speaking recitations to Muhammad. I know what I am talking about. My understanding these things has to do with spiritual discernment. Muslim don't understand that which is spiritually discerned. That is why they cannot understand or accept the truth when God calls Jesus His "Beloved Son in whom (He) is well pleased"

Muslims would rather call God a liar than accept the fact that Muhammad lied to them about who Jesus is. The Bible calls all who say Jesus is not come in the flesh as son of God is a lying antiChrist spirit. Muslim even say they love Jesus while they call Him a liar too. Jesus said, "NO one comes to the father (God) except through me, (and) you will die in your sins unless you believe I am He" I believe Jesus is He, you don't; therefore, Islam not only has a different God; they also have a different Jesus!

About the Bible and your comments note the following:
1. We have manuscripts of the New Testament dated c.127 A.D, c.150 A.D., and c.200 A.D., as well as recently released copies with the Dead Sea Scrolls dated before 100 A.D.

2. We have 10,000 other manuscripts of the New Testament to compare. Scribal errors did occur, but with 10,000 manuscripts, we can track these errors. The evidence would be weaker, not stronger, if there had been a "Christian 'Uthman" to burn them.

3. The early church writers (from 97/98 A.D. to 325 A.D.) referred to every single verse in the New Testament except around 17.

4. We have copies of the Greek translation of the Old Testament, Dead Sea Scrolls of almost all of the Old Testament dated at the time of Christ, and Christ's use of Old Testament quotes.

5. We have God's promise that He will watch over and preserve His word, and that He will not let His followers be led astray. -Isa 55:10-11; 59:21; 1 Peter 1:24-25, Mt 24:35

6. Christian scholars are very keen to examine all the evidence and be as precise as possible in what the original wording was.

Christians and all seekers of truth should welcome questioning the reliability of today's Bible. But rather than asking, "what is its reliability", one should also ask "what its reliability is being compared to."