The witch of Endor

[Burninglight]

When the prophet Samuel told King Saul he lost his Kingdom because of his rebellion against God. He started taking matters into his own hands. After prophet Samuel's death he was troubled. He still wanted the prophet's blessing. So he went to the witch of Endor. The witch was afraid, because they put witches to death back then, but King Saul promised her protection. He wanted her to conjure up the prophet Samuel, and when she did, she totally freaked out when he showed up.
I couldn't understand why she freaked out nor could I understand why she was able to move the hand of God to allow the prophet of God to show up at her beckoning. I have an idea what happen, but I like to hear someone elses opinion as to what they think happened.

[Divine Insight]

It is not about my God versus your god nor is a pedestal involved. But we clearly dance to he beat of a different drummer.

The only difference between us is that you are arrogantly demanding that I must dance to your tune lest you proclaim that I have been rejected by a God.

I don't behave so arrogantly toward you. I couldn't care less what you believe or how you interact with God. And I pass no judgments on how any God might react, or respond to you.

So that's the difference between us Burninglight.

You don't believe in the God I do nor do you serve Him who doesn't exist to you. I can tell you that the Hebrew God you don't believe in and want nothing to do with is that way for you and will be that way.

So? You don't believe in the God of the mystics either.

The only difference between us is that you are demanding that your jealous God will hate me for refusing to believe in him.

So yours is necessarily a picture of a hateful God. You demand that you're God is innately hateful.

Like Bob Dylan sang: "You're gonna have to serve somebody; it might be the Lord it might be the Devil but you gonna have to serve somebody."

What? So now you're appealing to Bob Dylan songs?

Ok, I'll appeal to John Lennon when he sang, "Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try. No hell below us, above us only sky".

You want nothing to do with the Biblical God and I want nothing to do with an impersonal cosmic force type benevolent creator that matches no description of the ancient of days.

Nobody's asking you to believe in anything.

You are the only one who is demanding that some God will become HATEFUL if I don't believe in him.

That ignorant view comes entirely from you.

I have never proclaimed to you that any God will hate you if you refuse to believe in him.

You are the only one who has a hateful God who you claim will be exceedingly cruel and mean to anyone who merely doesn't believe in him.

You are the only salesmen here. You are the only proselytizer.

I couldn't care less what you believe. You could be an atheist for all I care and that would be fine with me.

I know we need to be careful and choose our words carefully for in the multiude of words there is sin that can take the form of self righteousness, arrogance and pride. But sin is anything that separates us from God.. Many people believe in god and have invited him into their lives. It means nothing. The devils believe too and fear and tremble. It makes a difference whether God is in our life or Lord of it.

And that would be entirely between the God and the individual people that he supposedly created.

Why do you arrogantly assign yourself the job of judging people's relationship with their creator?

Who do you think you are to judge who your God will hate?

The God that disgusts you is Lord of my life. He is not even in your life.

I don't believe in a hateful God, no. Nor would I care to have a hateful God in my life.

If you reject Him He rejects you.

I haven't rejected any God. All I've done is reject a mythology. You too have rejected a mythology. In fact, I'm sure you've rejected many of them.

Why you insist that our creator is so hateful is beyond me.

You will be judged by your works. If you are as good as you say, you have nothing to fear.

But I thought your God hates people for merely not believing in him?

Now you're starting to come around to my way of thinking. Yes, I'm perfectly ready for any judgement day that has to do with a "Truly Righteous" God. I have no thing to fear from any such judgement day.

The only thing I would have to fear is an "unrighteous" God who will take a temper tantrum because I didn't believe in the Christian picture of a hateful God.

If it comes down to "works", I have nothing to fear.

But if the God is an egotistical pig who simply hates people who didn't believe in him on pure faith, then yes, I'd be doomed. But at that point I couldn't less, because a God that is that disgusting wouldn't be worth worshiping anyway.

I am not good. It is written: "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. Ro 3 & 6: 23. Those who do not believe this literally are facing a literal Christless eternity.

So are you saying that you are not a good person because you know this to be true based on your own history and actions?

Or are you simply accepting some brainwashing scriptures that proclaim that you're not a good person?

I'm the only person in the world who can know whether I'm a good person or a bad person. Some idiots who made up a brainwashing religion 2000 years ago are not in any position to be passing judgement on my righteousness. They have absolutely no clue.

I hate every false way. That is what disgusts me.

False way? What the heck is a "false way"?

Don't you TRUST your hateful God to be righteous and just?

Evidently not. And it's not surprising to me since you seem to believe that he is indeed such a hateful deity.

There can be no such thing as a "False Way" in a religion where the God is proclaimed to judge people based on their choices. They would have to know that they were indeed choosing evil beyond any shadow of a doubt. Otherwise, if they had merely misunderstood or had been "tricked" into it by a demon, then they would have been innocent victim rather than truly evil people.

Isn't your God smart enough to realize that?

Jesus apparently knew better than that. Even Jesus pleaded a case that those who know not what they do should be forgiven.

But you spit in Jesus' face on that one, and refuse to respect his dying words.

Instead you demand that Jesus hates non-believers. Totally contrary to what these fables have Jesus himself proclaiming.

You claim that Jesus is your Lord, but you don't give his words the slightest bit of respect. You just go around demanding that Jesus will hate everyone who refuses to acknowledge that he was supposedly "The Christ".

But even the scriptures don't have Jesus supporting that mentality. Jesus forgave those who "Know not what they do", and that included all the people who not only didn't believe in him, but actively mocked him, beat him, and ultimately took part in having him nailed to a pole, or at the very least didn't step forward in his defense.

Jesus forgave all those people.

Yet you would have Jesus condemning people for merely not believing in 2000 year old absurd rumors?

What gives you the right to use Jesus to support such utter hatred in his name?

I am even against myself if what I share is not truth; in light of this, I bind & rebuke Satan and his helpers in the name of Jesus Christ, he shall be exposed and silenced in my presence and in the midst of every true lover of what is good and righteous.

But you're already misrepresenting Jesus.

You're lying about Jesus and then proclaiming to use his powers to cast binding spells on people.

According to the New Testament rumors, Jesus pleaded a case for the non-believers, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do".

And these were VIOLENT non-believers who were actively mocking him, beating, him stealing his garments, and nailing him to a pole.

And now you are attempting to use Jesus as an excuse to condemn modern day people for merely peacefully not believing in those ancient fables?

How do you justify yourself?

You speak of "truth" but all you spew is lies.

You continually proclaim that Jesus will hate non-believers and "reject them" because they had rejected him.

But that is NOT what the scriptures have Jesus saying.

Jesus forgives non-believers for they know not what they do.

And that is the TRUTH according to the scriptures.

The monster that you are attempting to create in Jesus' name simply doesn't exist.

You have created that Jesus monster in your own imagination.

The scriptures that refer to Jesus can't even be used to support your nonsense.

[Burninglight]

Divine Insight:

WADR, you should've been a lawyer. I mean that sincerely. Let me say that I am not all those horrible things you say about me. I am really concerned about people, love them and help them and try to make amends if I have done something wrong. For example, I had accidently scratch a car on the street. I put my name and number on the car for them to call me and many other such things like returning money when I was given back my original $20 with the change for buying a fast food meal.

You my friend err not knowing the Scriptures. If your works a prefect, you have nothing to fear from the Biblical God. Because He is a prefect God and just God. If you have sinned once in your life against this prefect and just Creator, what can you do to correct this? If you haven't sinned once in your life then all I said to you and all written in the Bible is moot.

"Forgive them for they know not what they do" Jesus is speaking of that physical incident of what is being done to him right there and then at that time. That doesn't mean they are not accountable for their other sins to God and others before that time or after. It is written: "For all have sinned and come short of God's glory..." The only way a person can stand right before God is in Christ, because He is the only one who never sinned and yet took our punishment for it. When we accept Christ in this way, we become the righteousness of Christ. We are then perfect, complete and totally acceptable in His presence.

You get to choose as a free moral agent. I am not forcing you nor is the God you believe to be a myth or what you call some kind of vaporus fiction of fairy tales. IMHO, that is the epitome in arrogance, pride and disrespect I have ever heard in a long time against the Lord of lords! But I am not going to lean to my understanding and judge you or say this or that should happen to you. I am happy to leave you at this point to you own devices, and you can leave me to mine! I hope we both come to the full knowledge of truth!

you are loved
Burninglight

[Divine Insight]

WADR, you should've been a lawyer. I mean that sincerely.

I just happen to have an open-and-shut case.

It's easy to make good arguments when what you're arguing for is truth.

Let me say that I am not all those horrible things you say about me.

I don't recall saying any horrible things about you specifically. You're the one who stated that you are a sinner who doesn't even deserve to make it to your ceiling much less to heaven. I was simply accepting your assessment of the situation.

I am really concerned about people, love them and help them and try to make amends if I have done something wrong. For example, I had accidently scratch a car on the street. I put my name and number on the car for them to call me and many other such things like returning money when I was given back my original $20 with the change for buying a fast food meal.

And now you're stance is changing from sinner to saint.

I won't argue with you. But I will say that I'm confused of why you think so lowly of yourself if you're such a well-meaning and well-intentioned person. Surely you don't believe that a God would condemn you for merely making honest mistakes?

You my friend err not knowing the Scriptures. If your works a prefect, you have nothing to fear from the Biblical God. Because He is a prefect God and just God.

A God who creates imperfect souls and expects them to be perfect would not be a just God. I think that's pretty simple right there.

This fabled religion claims that no man can resist sin or be without sin on his own merit. Well, if that's true, then it wouldn't be man's fault as he never had a chance. You'd have a God who judges his creation based on his own faulty design of them. In other words, if men are incapable of not sinning, then it can only be because their creator created them to be that way.

You see, this is just yet another contradiction with this whole false religion. And how could you possibly explain the thousands of years before the arrival of Jesus?
What would this God have been doing? He would have been stupidly waiting around and expecting men to obey him when he supposedly created them without giving them that capability of even doing so.

So that whole idealism is incompatible with the biblical fables in their entirety.

Mankind cannot have been unable to resist sin on his own. If that were the case, then Adam and Eve would not even have been at fault for disobeying God because even they would not have had the ability to do so. And at that time there was no Jesus around that they could be 'saved' by.

So that whole argument is a non-argument. The fables are necessarily false because they are blatantly self-contradicting.

If you have sinned once in your life against this prefect and just Creator, what can you do to correct this? If you haven't sinned once in your life then all I said to you and all written in the Bible is moot.

To begin with there is no commandment in the Old Testament, "Thou shalt be perfect". That's an invention of Christianity. That was never a part of this religion in the Old Testament to begin with. Besides, if mankind was designed by God to be unable to achieve perfection it would have been an utterly stupid command even if it did exist.

Secondly, in my particular case, it wouldn't matter even if I had sinned since I have totally 'repented' any sin that I might have had anyway. I also "accepted" Jesus as my savior when I was a Christian. So in my case, if Jesus refused to come into my life that was his choice, not mine. I didn't reject him, he would have had to have rejected me. But according to the Christians that's impossible because Jesus reject no one who comes to him with a sincere heart.

So even according to this religious mythology I would necessarily have already been cleansed from all sins by the "blood of the Christ", and I would now be sin-free anyway. Because I have already accepted the Christ into my life and I cannot have sin within me at the same time that Christ is in me because God cannot be in the presence of sin.

So if there's any truth to Christianity I'm currently a totally sin-free person and have been so since my late teens.

"Forgive them for they know not what they do" Jesus is speaking of that physical incident of what is being done to him right there and then at that time. That doesn't mean they are not accountable for their other sins to God and others before that time or after.

That doesn't matter. It's totally irrelevant. If Jesus is forgiving those particular people at that particular time for that specific event, then he is still acknowledging that not knowing what they do is a legitimate reason to forgiven them.

I never suggested that he was forgiving them for every action they ever did or might do in the future. If they did those actions with evil intent, then they would no longer qualify for not knowing what they are doing.

My point still holds that Jesus obviously has the "moral value" and the "moral judgment" that if people don't understand that what they are doing is wrong, then they should be forgiven for their actions because they aren't knowingly intending to do evil things.

And that flies in the face of the Christian's demand that Jesus condemns non-believers irrespective of why they might not believe. So the Christians are the ones who are representing the Jesus of these fables, be he a real person or a totally fictitious character.

So my argument still holds. Jesus forgives people who "know not what they do". And that clearly includes people who don't believe in him, because that was precisely what the people were doing that he forgave for "not knowing what they are doing".

So if Jesus would forgive that mob for not believing in him then he would most certainly forgive people 2000 years down the road for not believing in ancient rumors that appear to be utterly stupid and riddled with contradictions and utter absurdity.


Your demand that Jesus must condemn modern day non-believers is of your own making. It's a Christian lie that isn't even supported by the fables of Jesus.

Who are who to tell Jesus who he must condemn, forgive, or not forgive?

It is written: "For all have sinned and come short of God's glory..." The only way a person can stand right before God is in Christ, because He is the only one who never sinned and yet took our punishment for it. When we accept Christ in this way, we become the righteousness of Christ. We are then perfect, complete and totally acceptable in His presence.

What punishment?

I've already blown the Christian myth clean out of the water, and here you are still attempting to use it as though it has some sort of merit.

Are the "Wages of Sin" to be beaten and nailed to a pole?

No they aren't.

The "Wages of sin is spiritual death". Not even physical death will do. Because good people physically die too, but they are then spiritually resurrected and shipped off to heaven.

So to pay for the sins of mankind a demigod would have had to have died spiritually and ceased to exist forever, never to return or see the light of day again.

But did Jesus do that to pay the "Wages of Sin" for all mankind?

No, not at all. He was beaten and nailed to a pole. But that doesn't count for anything.

Then he physically died. Fine.

But then what happened?

He was supposedly resurrected a mere three days later and shipped off to heaven to not only live spirituality for the rest of eternity, but to even rule over heaven too boot.

Is that the "Wages of Sin"?

No it's not. On the contrary it's precisely the reward you're suppose to get if you please God.

So Jesus didn't pay for the sins of anyone. He got the ultimate reward.

He even got what Satan had lusted for. Jesus gets to be the egotistical KING of heaven for eternity.

So how could it possibly be said that he "died" to pay for the sins of men?

He didn't die spiritually. He was supposedly resurrected and shipped off to heaven. Precisely the reward for not sinning!

So the Christian fables don't even make any sense at all. They are just one blatant contradiction after another.

You get to choose as a free moral agent. I am not forcing you nor is the God you believe to be a myth or what you call some kind of vaporus fiction of fairy tales.

If a God is said to be "just" then he can't send people who don't believe in absurdly contradicting and utterly insane mythologies to a place of eternal damnation. Because to do so would be utterly unjust.

There is no way that the Christian religion can possibly represent a righteous God. It's a self-contradicting superstitious fable that can't possibly be true.

IMHO, that is the epitome in arrogance, pride and disrespect I have ever heard in a long time against the Lord of lords!

The relentless proselytizing of Christianity using Jesus in an attempt to condemn people who refuse to suck up to the religious bigotry in the name of Jesus' being held up as "The Christ" is the epitome of arrogance, pride and disrespect to your fellow men and their philosophies and faiths.

Using Jesus as a battering ram for religious bigotry is the greatest irony in all of human history.

Besides, look at you. You're calling me "arrogant, proud, and disrespectful, simply because I don't believe in your religion.

But what about you? You don't believe in my spiritual views either.

Therefore you are being "arrogant, proud, and disrespectful" toward me for the very same reasons. You totally dismiss my spiritual beliefs and faith out-of-hand and add insult to injury by insinuating that if I don't accept your beliefs, then I am rejecting God.

That's a double standard don't you think?

But I am not going to lean to my understanding and judge you or say this or that should happen to you. I am happy to leave you at this point to you own devices, and you can leave me to mine! I hope we both come to the full knowledge of truth!

you are loved
Burninglight

I know that I'm loved. I don't need someone to tell me that who has just finished basically insinuating that I'm such a horrible person that I would reject my own creator in favor of choosing evil over good.

You're just insulted me to hell and back by implying that I am purposefully rejecting a supposedly all-righteous creator in favor of worshiping arrogance, pride and being disrespectful to some "lord of lords".

And then you claim that I am loved?

This is the greatest hypocrisy of all.

Have I ever suggested that you are rejecting all that is good?

Have I ever suggested that you are in the dog house with your creator?

Have I ever insulted you in any way for not believing in the things I believe?

No.

You tried really hard to shove your religion down my throat and when I refuse to swallow it, you insult me, and then tell me I'm "loved".

And you claim that I'm the one who "lacks respect". Yet during our entire conversations you have never acknowledged or shown any respect for my spiritual or religious views.

Isn't respect supposed to be a two-way street?

Why is it that you can arrogantly dismiss my spiritual faith out-of-hand and that's not considered to be disrespectful. But when I dismiss yours I'm being arrogant and disrespectful.

And I might add as well, that it is you who are arrogantly trying to shove your religious beliefs down my throat by accusing me of "rejecting God" if I don't suck up to your religion.

I have never tried to proselytize my religion at you. I don't care what you believe. You could be a complete atheist and it would be fine with. I'd tell you then why I don't believe in atheism.

You can tell me why you don't believe in my religions or spiritual philosophies. It doesn't bother me. It's not important to me that you believe in my religion.

But obviously it's so important to you that I believe in yours that if I fail to accept your evangelism then you resort to branding me as being "arrogant proud and disrespectful" just because I refuse to buy into a hateful religion that's riddled with endless self-contradictions.

From my perspective you are the one who is looking down your nose at people who refuse to accept your religious proselytizing.

It's so typical. If you can't sell them your religion, you end up insulting them.

Typical Christianity.

[Burninglight]

I just happen to have an open-and-shut case.

It's easy to make good arguments when what you're arguing for is truth

I don't recall saying any horrible things about you specifically. You're the one who stated that you are a sinner who doesn't even deserve to make it to your ceiling much less to heaven. I was simply accepting your assessment of the situation.

Well, you're saying the "truth" I speak of is me spewing lies. You said that I said Jesus hates or will hate the non-believers. I didn't say that. You can reject someone and not hate them. Your telling me a monster I'm attempting to create in Jesus' name, and that I've have created that Jesus monster in my own imagination. When you say things like that about me, I consider it saying horrible things about me!

And now you're stance is changing from sinner to saint.
I won't argue with you. But I will say that I'm confused of why you think so lowly of yourself if you're such a well-meaning and well-intentioned person. Surely you don't believe that a God would condemn you for merely making honest mistakes?.

Saints are sinners saved by God's grace! I don't think lowly of myself but I don't think more of myself than I should. God never condemns people for making mistakes. The sin of rejecting God and calling Him a monster chauvinistic pig is not a mistake. that is making a mockery of all that is called God according to the only Scriptures God made available to us.

A God who creates imperfect souls and expects them to be perfect would not be a just God. I think that's pretty simple right there.

This fabled religion claims that no man can resist sin or be without sin on his own merit. Well, if that's true, then it wouldn't be man's fault as he never had a chance. You'd have a God who judges his creation based on his own faulty design of them. In other words, if men are incapable of not sinning, then it can only be because their creator created them to be that way..

God created us with the power to choose. Don't blame your sin on Him. It is you and you alone who has chosen to reject Him and even worse is to ignore Him as if He were some child's book fairy tale. People that rebel at all that is called God according to the Scriptures cannot see God, and this type of rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft!

What would be the point if God created you a complaint automaton? Is that your idea of life and prefect harmony? Do you think you know better than your Creator?

You see, this is just yet another contradiction with this whole false religion. And how could you possibly explain the thousands of years before the arrival of Jesus?
What would this God have been doing? He would have been stupidly waiting around and expecting men to obey him when he supposedly created them without giving them that capability of even doing so

So that whole idealism is incompatible with the biblical fables in their entirety.

Mankind cannot have been unable to resist sin on his own. If that were the case, then Adam and Eve would not even have been at fault for disobeying God because even they would not have had the ability to do so. And at that time there was no Jesus around that they could be 'saved' by.

So that whole argument is a non-argument. The fables are necessarily false because they are blatantly self-contradicting.

You err not knowing the Scriptures or the power thereof. Those in the OT had the shadow and type of Christ, but once Christ appeared the shadows and type can profit the people nothing.

To begin with there is no commandment in the Old Testament, "Thou shalt be perfect". That's an invention of Christianity. That was never a part of this religion in the Old Testament to begin with. Besides, if mankind was designed by God to be unable to achieve perfection it would have been an utterly stupid command even if it did exist.

Secondly, in my particular case, it wouldn't matter even if I had sinned since I have totally 'repented' any sin that I might have had anyway. I also "accepted" Jesus as my savior when I was a Christian. So in my case, if Jesus refused to come into my life that was his choice, not mine. I didn't reject him, he would have had to have rejected me. But according to the Christians that's impossible because Jesus reject no one who comes to him with a sincere heart.

So even according to this religious mythology I would necessarily have already been cleansed from all sins by the "blood of the Christ", and I would now be sin-free anyway. Because I have already accepted the Christ into my life and I cannot have sin within me at the same time that Christ is in me because God cannot be in the presence of sin.

So if there's any truth to Christianity I'm currently a totally sin-free person and have been so since my late teens.

I don't know your heart or how God will deal with you, but I do know God is not mocked what a man sows so shall he reap.

It's so typical. If you can't sell them your religion, you end up insulting them.

Typical Christianity.

I am not selling anything. Besides, a right relationship with God cannot be bought. If you are insulted, it because you choose to be insulted and offended. It is written "Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them" If I get offended, I try loving God's law more, but you don't love it at all; so, I can understand why you are offended, irritated and insulted!

[Divine Insight]

If you enjoy spreading hatred in Jesus' name please don't let me stop you.

I personally see no point to it.

I would love to spread love in Jesus' name myself, but I can't because the hateful Christians scream bloody murder when I try to make Jesus out to be a loving person.

Only a hateful Jesus will serve their agenda.

That's a real shame. And there doesn't appear to be any way to "save" Jesus from the hateful Christians who have proclaimed ownership of him.