A letter from an atheist to other atheists

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ScioVeritas
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A letter from an atheist to other atheists

Post #1

Post by ScioVeritas »

I came across this letter which was cited as being from an atheist to other atheist concerning the author's perceived understanding of the atheistic worldview. My question is to atheist - do you agree or disagree with his assessment? and why?

Here is the letter:

“[To] all my Atheist friends.
Let us stop sugar coating it. I know, it’s hard to come out and be blunt with the friendly Theists who frequent sites like this. However in your efforts to “play nice� and “be civil� you actually do them a great disservice.

We are Atheists. We believe that the Universe is a great uncaused, random accident. All life in the Universe past and future are the results of random chance acting on itself. While we acknowledge concepts like morality, politeness, civility seem to exist, we know they do not. Our highly evolved brains imagine that these things have a cause or a use, and they have in the past, they’ve allowed life to continue on this planet for a short blip of time. But make no mistake: all our dreams, loves, opinions, and desires are figments of our primordial imagination. They are fleeting electrical signals that fire across our synapses for a moment in time. They served some purpose in the past. They got us here. That’s it. All human achievement and plans for the future are the result of some ancient, evolved brain and accompanying chemical reactions that once served a survival purpose. Ex: I’ll marry and nurture children because my genes demand reproduction, I’ll create because creativity served a survival advantage to my ancient ape ancestors, I’ll build cities and laws because this allowed my ape grandfather time and peace to reproduce and protect his genes. My only directive is to obey my genes. Eat, sleep, reproduce, die. That is our bible.

We deride the Theists for having created myths and holy books. We imagine ourselves superior. But we too imagine there are reasons to obey laws, be polite, protect the weak etc. Rubbish. We are nurturing a new religion, one where we imagine that such conventions have any basis in reality. Have they allowed life to exist? Absolutely. But who cares? Outside of my greedy little gene’s need to reproduce, there is nothing in my world that stops me from killing you and reproducing with your wife. Only the fear that I might be incarcerated and thus be deprived of the opportunity to do the same with the next guy’s wife stops me.

Some of my Atheist friends have fooled themselves into acting like the general population. They live in suburban homes, drive Toyota Camrys, attend school plays. But underneath they know the truth. They are a bag of DNA whose only purpose is to make more of themselves. So be nice if you want. Be involved, have polite conversations, be a model citizen. Just be aware that while technically an Atheist, you are an inferior one. You’re just a little bit less evolved, that’s all.
When you are ready to join me, let me know, I’ll be reproducing with your wife.

I know it’s not PC to speak so bluntly about the ramifications of our beliefs, but in our discussions with Theists we sometimes tip toe around what we really know to be factual. Maybe it’s time we Atheists were a little more truthful and let the chips fall where they may. At least that’s what my genes are telling me to say.�

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Re: A letter from an atheist to other atheists

Post #2

Post by Divine Insight »

ScioVeritas wrote: We are Atheists. We believe that the Universe is a great uncaused, random accident.
I know many atheists who would object to the above. Atheism is NOT a belief that the universe is an uncaused random accident.

Atheism is simple to be without a theism (i.e. not subscribing to any particular theistic philosophy or belief). The question of how the universe came to be is simply unknown. There is no need to conclude that it was an uncaused random accident.
ScioVeritas wrote: We imagine ourselves superior.
Who actually wrote this letter? :-k

If the letter is anonymous then isn't there a possibility that some dishonest theists actually made this letter up?

I don't know of too many atheists who declare themselves to be superior to anyone. I think this is entirely in the minds of theists. Although some atheists may point to what is obviously superior logic and reasoning. After all any honest theists has no choice but to confess to only having faith.
ScioVeritas wrote: Outside of my greedy little gene’s need to reproduce, there is nothing in my world that stops me from killing you and reproducing with your wife.
This was either written by one very sick "atheist" or it's definitely a dishonest scam created by dishonest theists.

I don't personally know of any atheists who would agree with the above quoted sentiment.
ScioVeritas wrote: When you are ready to join me, let me know, I’ll be reproducing with your wife.
Ok, this is either a really bad attempt by theists at pretending to be an atheist, or this whole letter was written and intended as SARCASM COMEDY.
ScioVeritas wrote: I know it’s not PC to speak so bluntly about the ramifications of our beliefs, but in our discussions with Theists we sometimes tip toe around what we really know to be factual. Maybe it’s time we Atheists were a little more truthful and let the chips fall where they may. At least that’s what my genes are telling me to say.�
Sounds like it came from a Christian comedian for sure. ;)

By the way, this should have been posted in Random Ramblings, or "Humor for the day".

Surely you don't expect anyone to take this letter seriously?

Moreover, even if the person who wrote this was an actual atheist and actually believes this stuff, it's clearly not representative of all atheists anymore than the Klu Klux Klan is representative of all Christians.


And finally for to answer your question:
ScioVeritas wrote: My question is to atheist - do you agree or disagree with his assessment? and why?
I would totally disagree with this assessment in any case.

Even if our world is a totally uncaused random accident that's no reason to not care about anyone or anything. Or to have no moral values or sense of respect.

In fact, any Christian who buys into that can't claim to be very moral. Because after all, if a Christian would see no value in morality without a God, then clearly they have no moral values of their own.

The very idea that a God needs to exist in order for us to have moral values is an absurd idea to begin with.

Any Christian who would be an immoral person if there were no God is necessarily then an immoral person even if there is a God.

It's really that simple.
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Re: A letter from an atheist to other atheists

Post #3

Post by sf »

[Replying to post 1 by ScioVeritas]

This sounds like it was written by a Christian to make fun of the atheist's position honestly. All that talk about our meaningless existence, while true of that worldview in my opinion (as a former atheist looking back), it isn't what an atheist thinks about on a daily basis... too depressing ;)

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Re: A letter from an atheist to other atheists

Post #4

Post by Hamsaka »

[Replying to post 1 by ScioVeritas]

Do you have a link or reference to the source of this letter?

It doesn't sound to me like it was written by an atheist, but by a theist parroting their impression of atheist doctrines. I'm not convinced it was written in honesty, but I'm willing to entertain that there is more to it that will change my opinion.

Like DI said, if we were to distill the atheist essence down, I've seen, read and heard no atheist, ever, claim this universe is the product of random chance -- that is a theist interpretation of so-called 'atheist' commentary.

sfisher: yep, me too. I just scrolled down and saw your reply. So even a theist sees through it :D I guess that's pretty telling. I appreciate your honesty, sfisher :)

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Re: A letter from an atheist to other atheists

Post #5

Post by ScioVeritas »

Divine Insight wrote:
Even if our world is a totally uncaused random accident that's no reason to not care about anyone or anything. Or to have no moral values or sense of respect.

In fact, any Christian who buys into that can't claim to be very moral. Because after all, if a Christian would see no value in morality without a God, then clearly they have no moral values of their own.

The very idea that a God needs to exist in order for us to have moral values is an absurd idea to begin with.

Any Christian who would be an immoral person if there were no God is necessarily then an immoral person even if there is a God.

It's really that simple.
It sounds like you're saying that morality is something inherent to humanity. Just for clarification is that the assertion you're proposing?

Edit: Hamsaka this is the link to where I saw it: http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/th ... worldview/

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Re: A letter from an atheist to other atheists

Post #6

Post by Divine Insight »

ScioVeritas wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
Even if our world is a totally uncaused random accident that's no reason to not care about anyone or anything. Or to have no moral values or sense of respect.

In fact, any Christian who buys into that can't claim to be very moral. Because after all, if a Christian would see no value in morality without a God, then clearly they have no moral values of their own.

The very idea that a God needs to exist in order for us to have moral values is an absurd idea to begin with.

Any Christian who would be an immoral person if there were no God is necessarily then an immoral person even if there is a God.

It's really that simple.
It sounds like you're saying that morality is something inherent to humanity. Just for clarification is that the assertion you're proposing?
"Invented by Humanity" would be more correct. When we look around at the natural world we don't see any evidence for this concept of morality existing outside of human judgement.

Also, it would be incorrect to say that morality is something that is "inherent" to humanity since all humans most certainly don't agree on what they consider to be moral. Therefore all humans clearly don't share a common inherent idea of morality.

We do tend to agree on many of the more obvious things though. Most people would not like to be stuck in the head with a hammer. So they would consider it to be immoral to go around striking other people on the head with a hammer.

In short, the concept of not doing to others what you wouldn't want done to yourself is a no-brainer, and certainly didn't originate with Christianity or Jesus.

So yes, morality is a man-made subjective concept. This doesn't mean that it has no value. It simply means that there is no need for any higher being to exist for humans to understand this concept.

So humans "invent" the concept of morality based basically on what they like versus what they don't like.

We equate the concept of "good" with things we like, and the concept of "bad" with things we don't like. There is no need for a God for humans to understand and appreciate this.

Moreover, when it comes to the behavior of any particular human, we refer to a human as being "moral" if they do and support things that we consider to be "good". And conversely we consider them to be "immoral" if they do and support things we consider to be "bad".

So this is how humans have constructed our sense of subjective morality.

~~~~~

Now to turn the question back to you.

Do you think that any person who would do "immoral", or bad things, if there is no God, is a moral person?

And if not, then surely the existence of a God isn't going to change who that person is, right?

Therefore any Christian who claims that without a God they would have no reason to be a moral person is automatically proclaiming that, in their heart, they are indeed an immoral person.

Right? :-k

So if that's the case, then it doesn't make any sense for any Christian to buy into the idea that atheism would be a valid justification to be an immoral person.

This is why the letter and scenario you are attempting to present here isn't going to make any sense to any rational decent person. ;)

All you need to ask yourself is whether YOU would be a moral person if there is no God. And if your answer is "no", then you must necessarily be an immoral person even if there is a God. Because you are still the same person either way, right?

Therefore if you are a moral Christian, and you suddenly discovered that there is no God there would be no reason for you to also suddenly become an immoral person. That makes no sense.

So the entire scenario that you are attempting to get at here fails miserably.
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Post #7

Post by wiploc »

I think the letter is a fake.

It contains many obvious errors.

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Re: A letter from an atheist to other atheists

Post #8

Post by Hamsaka »

ScioVeritas wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
Even if our world is a totally uncaused random accident that's no reason to not care about anyone or anything. Or to have no moral values or sense of respect.

In fact, any Christian who buys into that can't claim to be very moral. Because after all, if a Christian would see no value in morality without a God, then clearly they have no moral values of their own.

The very idea that a God needs to exist in order for us to have moral values is an absurd idea to begin with.

Any Christian who would be an immoral person if there were no God is necessarily then an immoral person even if there is a God.

It's really that simple.
It sounds like you're saying that morality is something inherent to humanity. Just for clarification is that the assertion you're proposing?

Edit: Hamsaka this is the link to where I saw it: http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/th ... worldview/
Where else can we establish 'morality' to have come from? A supernatural being that cannot be shown to exist by basic, conventional reason, logic or evidence? I know that is the claim of Christians (and other theists), but it remains unsupported except by the faith of the believers.

We can show that morality is a human invention much more saliently than we can show morality's source as being supernatural. That doesn't make it less moral, it just deprives some of a cosmic babysitter/parent/authority and places the onus for our behavior firmly back on us.

Thanks for the link :) It's disappointing and not surprising at all that this 'atheist' letter has a source in a Christian webzine. The writer mentions at the end of the article that he's received feedback from other atheists that refute and attempt to discredit this 'letter', and blithely ignores these protests for John's 'honesty' (read: John gets to be labeled 'honest' because although he claims to be an atheist, his atheist manifesto is completely in line with Christian perception of atheism, whatta coincidence, that).

I can't possibly know this for sure, but as a person who does not worship or 'believe in' any gods, I don't relate much to John's atheist manifesto, or agree with most of the points he makes BECAUSE they are old, tired Christian-inspired stereotypes being peddled as coming from an honest 'atheist'. I think this author is lying, flat out, but I could be cured of that if I could find the original of John's 'letter' and see the context it was written in.

It's just too convenient to not be written by a troll.

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Re: A letter from an atheist to other atheists

Post #9

Post by Divine Insight »

Hamsaka wrote: I can't possibly know this for sure, but as a person who does not worship or 'believe in' any gods, I don't relate much to John's atheist manifesto, or agree with most of the points he makes BECAUSE they are old, tired Christian-inspired stereotypes being peddled as coming from an honest 'atheist'. I think this author is lying, flat out, but I could be cured of that if I could find the original of John's 'letter' and see the context it was written in.

It's just too convenient to not be written by a troll.
Absolutely. Especially the comment in that article, "In the end, as John rightly observes, they end up 'nurturing a new religion' and creating for themselves the very thing they detest".

Like as if an "honest atheist" would refer to atheism as being a "new religion that needs to be nurtured". All the while bragging about how atheism gives him a total green light to procreate with other people's spouses. :roll:

This is as fake as can possibly be.

The Christian who wrote this article is either extremely dishonest, or extremely gullible to take something like this as being representative of how atheist think in general. And it's really hard to believe that anyone could be this gullible, so dishonesty seems like the more likely candidate here.
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Re: A letter from an atheist to other atheists

Post #10

Post by Goat »

ScioVeritas wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
Even if our world is a totally uncaused random accident that's no reason to not care about anyone or anything. Or to have no moral values or sense of respect.

In fact, any Christian who buys into that can't claim to be very moral. Because after all, if a Christian would see no value in morality without a God, then clearly they have no moral values of their own.

The very idea that a God needs to exist in order for us to have moral values is an absurd idea to begin with.

Any Christian who would be an immoral person if there were no God is necessarily then an immoral person even if there is a God.

It's really that simple.
It sounds like you're saying that morality is something inherent to humanity. Just for clarification is that the assertion you're proposing?

Edit: Hamsaka this is the link to where I saw it: http://coldcasechristianity.com/2014/th ... worldview/
This is 'oh, I used to be an atheist, but then I converted' web site. However, the ideas about atheism and how people view the world if they are atheistic does not ring true to me.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

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