Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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The Veridican Argument for the Existence of God


Preamble and Necessary Stipulations

The first thing you must do is define what God is because if you go looking for a false notion of God, you won't find it. A false god truly does not exist, so there is no proof of it.

One must get past the belief of (and need for) a God that is like a human figure of a man sitting on a large throne in an astral place called heaven. Certainly, God could appear that way in a "vision", but that vision would be completely subjective to the one having it--just like a burning bush was to Moses (presumably).

For this argument, God is defined as the monistic entity. That means He is the only thing that is real, and all other things that seem to exist are modalities of his substance. Do not confuse this with pantheism. Pantheism states that God is the universe. Monism states that the universe is of the substance of God. Monistically speaking, therefore, the universe is God, but God is not just the universe. God is that which is the only real thing that exists, that has ever existed, that will always exist.

Secondly, don't go looking for a physical sign of God's existence; it doesn't work that way. If God exists as the monistic entity, then God necessarily is of a higher order of existence than the physical world. Thus, proof is going to have to be of a higher order because the "physical" proof of God is, after all, the entire physical universe. To ask for physical proof of God is like standing in a hundred acres of trees and asking for proof of the forest.

The next step is to move your thoughts to that higher order of thinking. Contemplate "nothingness." By that, I mean true nothingness. Imagine nothing exists--not even you as the imaginer of it. This can't be done ordinarily, of course, which is why you must use higher thought to envision it, like when we try to imagine a fourth dimension or space-time. Chances are that as you contemplate it, you will only glimpse it in your mind. But that will be enough to follow this argument.

Therefore:

Argument Axioms

Axiom #1: Nothingness is an eternal state.

If there is a state of nothingness, there will always be and has always been a state of nothingness. To imagine something popping into existence from nothingness requires "magical thinking," which isn't rational, but even if it were rational, true nothingness would not have existed in the first place. There would have always been the magic that popped something into existence. So, if there was ever nothingness--there would still only be nothingness.


Axiom #2: Something exists.

The universe with all its forces and matter exists. This does not need any further proof.


Axiom #3: If something exists, then something has always existed.

For if there was a time when there was nothing before there was something, then nothingness would still exist because nothingness is necessarily eternal (see axiom #1).


Axiom #4: If something exists, it is the only thing that has ever existed.

For if there were two things wholly separate from each other, then between those two things would be nothing--and if nothingness exists anywhere at any time, it is eternal.


Axiom #5: Something and nothing cannot exist together.

Either there is one thing that has always existed, or there is nothingness that has always existed. And if there is a state of nothingness of any size or shape, then it existed before something. For once something exists, it is the only thing that exists. Keep in mind that "something" does not float in a sea of "nothingness" There is no "outside" of something. There is not that which exists and that which does not exist. There is only one or the other, and as we know, there is something that exists (Axiom #2).


Axiom #6: The one thing that exists has consciousness as an attribute.

It may have many other attributes as well. It may have infinite attributes or at least all the attributes that can exist. But one of those attributes is consciousness. We know this because we are conscious, and we are necessarily part of the one thing that exists.


Conclusion:

If nothingness was ever a state of being, it would have never changed from that state. However, because something does exist, it is the one thing that does exist and must have always existed. That one substance that exists is minimally a conscious entity. Therefore, the one thing that has existed eternally, and is conscious, is what we call "God."

--The End--

NOTE: This argument was originally created by Rev. Edward J. Gordon on October 10, 2018.
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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Purple Knight wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:08 pm I want to cease to exist,
You know, Purple Knight, you have an answer for everything. I'll bet you wrote your entire reply to me in less than two minutes. You don't even think about it, do you? Except counter everything so you can justify your non-belief. That's fine. It's your life and your mind, you will do whatever you want to do. But the above is the honesty above everything else you've said. It is everything.

When a person dies their mind either exists on the astral plane or it reabsorbs back into the mind of God from whence it came. The reabsorption (perishing) is pleasant. It's like suddenly realizing all truth and all beauty. It is the beholding of perfection, and it feels like the ultimate "coming home." And the closer you get to that light, the further you walk down the tunnel toward it, the greater it is, but at the same time, the less you become. And then, nothing. You are back to what you were before you were born--God. That's assuming he doesn't throw you in hell for a while first and then lets you blink out from there (destruction). But, I don't know, you seem like a nice guy who cares about doing the good thing, so, perishing is probably in your future, but I can't tell that, and I can't judge it. I'm not qualified to, and I don't know. That's a fact.

That said, I know exactly what you mean when you say you want to cease to exist. Brother, I know exactly what you mean.

But, throughout the course of my life, I have fallen in love with Jesus Christ, and I want to be one with him, and that transformation has already begun. Christ is about life and about the new Heaven-Earth, and I want to be part of that. I don't want to go back to being God's substance. I want to be God's son (salvation).
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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

Post #32

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Athetotheist wrote: Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:24 pm What I don't understand is why, with all of your unorthodox propositions, you still wear a veneer of Christianity. You seem to reject a lot of traditional----and even biblical----Christian theology, but you try to hang on to Jesus. Why? As the old punchline goes, "If the suit don't fit, the suit don't fit." Why keep trying to make the Christian suit fit when you seem so firmly convinced that it doesn't?
I love Jesus Christ. I have since my eyes were opened to his life and teachings in 1993. If you would take a moment to look at our articles of faith, I would ask you what other thing you would have us call ourselves. Are we not followers of Christ? Then are we not Christian? Do we not believe that Jesus is the only way, the only truth, the only life?

Besides, the Church age is finished. Technically, we are at the end of the Laodicean era and the beginning of Veridicanism (which is a doctrine, not a church). The world church, the "synagogue of Satan," does not get the copyright on the term Christian. We (Veridicans) are the true religion of Christ. And there is no one else in the world like us. In fact, there never has been. Not once, not ever, in 2000 years. If you read our articles of faith, you will realize how strange and miraculous that is. Veridicanism should have had cathedrals long before the proto-orthodox church. But never mind that, our cathedral will be in the new Heaven-Earth.

Veridican Articles of Faith
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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

Post #33

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to Veridican in post #32
There are certain theological points I want to ask about, but first I'd like to bring this up:
It has been revealed to us by God that mRNA vaccines fulfill the prophecy of John in Revelation 9:13-19. We hold that they are a weapon of the antichrist intended to destroy a significant portion of humanity which will allow the antichrist to come to power. We, therefore, prohibit our members from taking any mRNA vaccine, specifically the COVID-19 mRNA vaccine.
If covid vaccines are "a weapon of the antichrist intended to destroy a significant portion of humanity", why have far more people died of covid than have been seriously affected by the vaccines?

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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Veridican wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:30 amYou know, Purple Knight, you have an answer for everything. I'll bet you wrote your entire reply to me in less than two minutes. You don't even think about it, do you? Except counter everything so you can justify your non-belief. That's fine. It's your life and your mind, you will do whatever you want to do. But the above is the honesty above everything else you've said. It is everything.
I know I can come off as sounding arrogant, and it's because I am. But there's something else here too and it's something most arrogant people are entirely devoid of: I have actually thought about these issues extensively. I'm not merely justifying after the fact. I have actually considered and made meaningful decisions.
Veridican wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:30 amWhen a person dies their mind either exists on the astral plane or it reabsorbs back into the mind of God from whence it came. The reabsorption (perishing) is pleasant. It's like suddenly realizing all truth and all beauty. It is the beholding of perfection, and it feels like the ultimate "coming home." And the closer you get to that light, the further you walk down the tunnel toward it, the greater it is, but at the same time, the less you become. And then, nothing. You are back to what you were before you were born--God. That's assuming he doesn't throw you in hell for a while first and then lets you blink out from there (destruction). But, I don't know, you seem like a nice guy who cares about doing the good thing, so, perishing is probably in your future, but I can't tell that, and I can't judge it. I'm not qualified to, and I don't know. That's a fact.
Oh if any of this is true I'm burning. I try to be, but I'm not a good person and never will be. Trying doesn't do squat. Only being born good makes you good; a good motive will always be found for any action and will add to the innate goodness. However, if you are born evil and try to imitate good, some selfish motive will be found for the same action imitated from the good person and will only add to the innate evil.

And I will never ask forgiveness for how I was born. If someone says to me, "Why didn't you kill yourself when you realised you were a monster?" I might ask forgiveness for that choice, but if I was supposed to go on living as a monster and ask forgiveness for being born without a conscience and trying my best to fill that in with the only tools I have, then nope.
Veridican wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:30 amChrist is about life and about the new Heaven-Earth, and I want to be part of that.
I don't begrudge you that and I hope you're right. I don't want the part of you that thinks to rot in the ground and be eaten by all sorts of nasty creatures if that doesn't have to happen.

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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Athetotheist wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:00 am [Replying to Veridican in post #32
There are certain theological points I want to ask about, but first I'd like to bring this up:
It has been revealed to us by God that mRNA vaccines fulfill the prophecy of John in Revelation 9:13-19. We hold that they are a weapon of the antichrist intended to destroy a significant portion of humanity which will allow the antichrist to come to power. We, therefore, prohibit our members from taking any mRNA vaccine, specifically the COVID-19 mRNA vaccine.
If covid vaccines are "a weapon of the antichrist intended to destroy a significant portion of humanity", why have far more people died of covid than have been seriously affected by the vaccines?
This particular prophecy may not always be included in the Articles of Faith, but for now, it is. The vaccine is a primer for the next biological attack. There will be a virus released that will specifically effect people who have been vaccinated. The COVID virus is also part of the antichrist plan. It was a biological weapon. But right now, the tribulation has not started. But it will, and when it does, the population of the Earth will need to be decreased in order for the antichrist to come to power.

That said, if mRNA vaccines are predicted in Revelation 9, then we may have already entered the tribulation era. Frankly, the idea that we have troubles me a great deal, and it worries me. Because if so, then like a disease, things will get progressively worse, and I haven't finished my studies of Revelation. I thought I would have more time to spread the doctrine of Veridicanism. But I fear I'm too late. Nevertheless, I will keep going and trust that the timing is all in God's hands.

Just so you know, I could be wrong about Revelation 9. But I'm not wrong about the prophecy regarding mRNA vaccines. It is a preparation for the antichrist and so either way, even if I have to modify my scriptural reference, the prophecy still stands.
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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Purple Knight wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:35 am
And I will never ask forgiveness for how I was born. If someone says to me, "Why didn't you kill yourself when you realised you were a monster?" I might ask forgiveness for that choice, but if I was supposed to go on living as a monster and ask forgiveness for being born without a conscience and trying my best to fill that in with the only tools I have, then nope.
Do you think you were born a monster?
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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

Post #37

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Veridican wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:53 pm
Purple Knight wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:35 am
And I will never ask forgiveness for how I was born. If someone says to me, "Why didn't you kill yourself when you realised you were a monster?" I might ask forgiveness for that choice, but if I was supposed to go on living as a monster and ask forgiveness for being born without a conscience and trying my best to fill that in with the only tools I have, then nope.
Do you think you were born a monster?
Absolutely. I never knew right from wrong and nobody could ever teach it to me. The best I can do, is trick (successfully) or imitate (unsuccessfully).

When I was in first grade I started to notice there was a difference between other people and myself. What they would do, and it would earn praise, I would imitate and it would not earn praise. I could even be completely selfless and people would correctly point out that I only did that because I wanted the praise for it, so I was still just selfish.

Turns out I'm a psychopath. The area of the brain that makes a person good, doesn't function in me. I'm not going to apologise for that. I don't see why I should.

Every single time in my life someone has spoken from morality, and said, you must do this thing and not that thing, I have done that thing and not that other thing. I only stop when it doesn't work and someone else speaks from morality and says, that thing you are doing, that is evil. Then I no longer do that thing.

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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

Post #38

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Purple Knight wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 3:44 pm
Veridican wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:53 pm Do you think you were born a monster?
Absolutely. I never knew right from wrong and nobody could ever teach it to me. The best I can do, is trick (successfully) or imitate (unsuccessfully).

When I was in first grade I started to notice there was a difference between other people and myself. What they would do, and it would earn praise, I would imitate and it would not earn praise. I could even be completely selfless and people would correctly point out that I only did that because I wanted the praise for it, so I was still just selfish.

Turns out I'm a psychopath. The area of the brain that makes a person good, doesn't function in me. I'm not going to apologise for that. I don't see why I should.

Every single time in my life someone has spoken from morality, and said, you must do this thing and not that thing, I have done that thing and not that other thing. I only stop when it doesn't work and someone else speaks from morality and says, that thing you are doing, that is evil. Then I no longer do that thing.
Well, I was a psychiatric registered nurse for 7 years. I concentrated in psychology in my bachelor's degree, and I have studied personality disorders quite in-depth. You don't sound like someone who has anti-social personality disorder to me. I could be wrong. I don't know you. You could be writing to me from prison, so I could be wrong. But you're way too concerned about morality and doing the right thing to be someone with APD. If you're talking about results from an MMPI test, I can tell you that on any given day a person may peak on the "psychopathic deviation" assessment. But if you want to tell me other things to convince me that you are, in fact, a psychopath, feel free, but in truth, I don't think I have a lot else to tell you or talk to you about, unless you want to talk about something--and then, of course, I'm always interested.

Take care, Purple Knight. :approve:
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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Post by Athetotheist »

Veridican wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:48 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:00 am [Replying to Veridican in post #32
There are certain theological points I want to ask about, but first I'd like to bring this up:
It has been revealed to us by God that mRNA vaccines fulfill the prophecy of John in Revelation 9:13-19. We hold that they are a weapon of the antichrist intended to destroy a significant portion of humanity which will allow the antichrist to come to power. We, therefore, prohibit our members from taking any mRNA vaccine, specifically the COVID-19 mRNA vaccine.
If covid vaccines are "a weapon of the antichrist intended to destroy a significant portion of humanity", why have far more people died of covid than have been seriously affected by the vaccines?
This particular prophecy may not always be included in the Articles of Faith, but for now, it is. The vaccine is a primer for the next biological attack. There will be a virus released that will specifically effect people who have been vaccinated. The COVID virus is also part of the antichrist plan. It was a biological weapon. But right now, the tribulation has not started. But it will, and when it does, the population of the Earth will need to be decreased in order for the antichrist to come to power.

That said, if mRNA vaccines are predicted in Revelation 9, then we may have already entered the tribulation era. Frankly, the idea that we have troubles me a great deal, and it worries me. Because if so, then like a disease, things will get progressively worse, and I haven't finished my studies of Revelation. I thought I would have more time to spread the doctrine of Veridicanism. But I fear I'm too late. Nevertheless, I will keep going and trust that the timing is all in God's hands.

Just so you know, I could be wrong about Revelation 9. But I'm not wrong about the prophecy regarding mRNA vaccines. It is a preparation for the antichrist and so either way, even if I have to modify my scriptural reference, the prophecy still stands.
Why do you believe that there's even going to be an "antichrist"?

First, there's supposed to be a being known as "Satan" or the "devil". He's supposed to be the most highly intelligent being ever created, yet he supposedly rebelled against a creator whom he knew to be omnipotent.......and actually expected to win. His "rebellion" is blamed on pride, but for such a highly intelligent being to expect victory over his own omnipotent creator wouldn't be just prideful; it would be delusional. Such a being would have to be so mentally unhinged as to be unfit to stand any trial.

Then, this being is supposed to send an "antichrist" to the earth to continue his delusional rampage. He presumably knows that this has been prophesied, but apparently doesn't have the wits to realize that all he would have to do to defeat the prophecy is not go along with it. If he didn't send an antichrist, the whole prophecy would fail with no effort on his part. Wouldn't that be the thing for the ultimate cosmic rebel to do?

To me those sound like descriptions of a being who's not very smart, and I believe that to be highly compelling evidence that the being in question doesn't exist at all.

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Re: Veridican Argument for the Existence of God

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Athetotheist wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:21 pm Why do you believe that there's even going to be an "antichrist"?

First, there's supposed to be a being known as "Satan" or the "devil". He's supposed to be the most highly intelligent being ever created, yet he supposedly rebelled against a creator whom he knew to be omnipotent.......and actually expected to win. His "rebellion" is blamed on pride, but for such a highly intelligent being to expect victory over his own omnipotent creator wouldn't be just prideful; it would be delusional. Such a being would have to be so mentally unhinged as to be unfit to stand any trial.

Then, this being is supposed to send an "antichrist" to the earth to continue his delusional rampage. He presumably knows that this has been prophesied, but apparently doesn't have the wits to realize that all he would have to do to defeat the prophecy is not go along with it. If he didn't send an antichrist, the whole prophecy would fail with no effort on his part. Wouldn't that be the thing for the ultimate cosmic rebel to do?

To me those sound like descriptions of a being who's not very smart, and I believe that to be highly compelling evidence that the being in question doesn't exist at all.
Who ever said Satan had free will?
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