Is Judaism Racist?

[earendil]

The OT says no such thing or anything like it. In Jewish tradition, the standards are higher for Jews than for non-Jews. We have 613 commandments; you guys have seven. If it turns out that we ARE talking about who gets into Heaven, Gentiles will have an easier time of it than we will. We don't get preferred seating.

The standards are higher for jews? How can you write this and not realize the intrinsic racism you are promoting?

In all the religions in the world, only in judaism can you be born so. If that is not racism, then what is?

Don't even bother to respond, because you will only make excuses.....and if you don't see the intrinsic racism of your above comments, then you are sick beyond repair.

Sorry..I don't mean to be rude...but sometimes hard situations require hard words.

[JoeyKnothead]

The OT says no such thing or anything like it. In Jewish tradition, the standards are higher for Jews than for non-Jews. We have 613 commandments; you guys have seven. If it turns out that we ARE talking about who gets into Heaven, Gentiles will have an easier time of it than we will. We don't get preferred seating.

The standards are higher for jews? How can you write this and not realize the intrinsic racism you are promoting?

In all the religions in the world, only in judaism can you be born so. If that is not racism, then what is?

Don't even bother to respond, because you will only make excuses.....and if you don't see the intrinsic racism of your above comments, then you are sick beyond repair.

Sorry..I don't mean to be rude...but sometimes hard situations require hard words.

Naw, that ain't racism, that's religion. Do note here, we have a Jew saying its harder for Jews. I just don't see a lot of anti-anything-but-Jew sentiment in that.

Some Christians think others will 'burn in hell', ain't that some kind of hating on others?

Some Muslims will kill you for, well for quite a bit actually.

There's some of this kind of stuff in all ancient beliefs I'm aware of.

This is why I don't go for religion. It is inherently 'us versus them'.

[Zzyzx]

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The OT says no such thing or anything like it. In Jewish tradition, the standards are higher for Jews than for non-Jews. We have 613 commandments; you guys have seven. If it turns out that we ARE talking about who gets into Heaven, Gentiles will have an easier time of it than we will. We don't get preferred seating.

The standards are higher for jews? How can you write this and not realize the intrinsic racism you are promoting?

If a group says "we expect more of ourselves than we expect of others", is that "intrinsic racism"?

When I was in the military we were constantly aware that as a "group" we expected more or ourselves than of others. Is that racism?

In all the religions in the world, only in judaism can you be born so. If that is not racism, then what is?

Can you honestly claim knowledge of the beliefs and practices of ALL of the tens of thousands of religions of the world?

Don't even bother to respond, because you will only make excuses.....and if you don't see the intrinsic racism of your above comments, then you are sick beyond repair.

Correction: Responses will demonstrate that your "arguments" don't stand scrutiny.

Sorry..I don't mean to be rude...but sometimes hard situations require hard words.

Hard situations often require hard analysis. I have seen no evidence of such in what you present.

[cnorman18]

The OT says no such thing or anything like it. In Jewish tradition, the standards are higher for Jews than for non-Jews. We have 613 commandments; you guys have seven. If it turns out that we ARE talking about who gets into Heaven, Gentiles will have an easier time of it than we will. We don't get preferred seating.

The standards are higher for jews? How can you write this and not realize the intrinsic racism you are promoting?

In all the religions in the world, only in judaism can you be born so. If that is not racism, then what is?

Don't even bother to respond, because you will only make excuses.....and if you don't see the intrinsic racism of your above comments, then you are sick beyond repair.

Sorry..I don't mean to be rude...but sometimes hard situations require hard words.

Thanks to my friends Joey and Zzyzx for their responses to this load of cr- er, message. I have a couple of things to say myself.

First, let's dispose of the "racism" idea. The Jews are not a "race." Never have been. There are Jews of every ethnicity on Earth; Caucasian Jews, Asian Jews, Black Jews, Arab Jews, Native American Jews, and so on. I personally know several Black and Latino Jews, and several of my students were Jews from India who were ethnically Indian. Historically, people who refer to Jews as a "race" have usually been antisemites, most notably the Nazis. Unfortunately, the error is a common one even among those who do not hate Jews.

Why are the Jews not a race? Because "race" denotes ethnicity, and that cannot be changed. One cannot "convert" and become African-American or ethnically Chinese; but one can become a Jew. I am ethnically Caucasian, an American of Scots descent: I am also fully and entirely a Jew, by Jewish law, as Jewish as Moses or Aaron.

According to the Talmud, there have been converts to Judaism from the time of Abraham. Who was the first convert? According to tradition, it was Abraham himself. Moses married a Midianite woman; Joseph married an Egyptian. All of their children were Jewish anyway. Since we do not keep track of whose ancestors are ethnically Jewish and whose are not, and never have, the Jews cannot be said to be s "race" and that has been true for three thousand years.

Ancient Jews actively sought converts, as noted by Josephus, who remarked on the large number of converts to Judaism in the Roman Empire; some estimates say that the percentage of Jews in Rome was as high as 10%. The NT speaks of Jews who would "sail the seas and cross whole countries to win one convert" (Matthew 23:15).

In the fourth century, though, conversion to Judaism became a capital crime. The Roman Catholic Church confirmed this penalty on numerous occasions (which proves that conversions were still taking place anyway, BTW). Conversion to Judaism became a capital crime in the Muslim world as well, and in many Muslim countries remains so to this day.

By the late Middle Ages, the Jewish community was actively discouraging converts. The danger to the converts and to the community itself were too great. Still, there were those who defied the ban; in the late 18th century, a Polish nobleman, Count Valentine Potocki, chose to be burned at the stake rather than recant his conversion and deny that he was then Jewish (by Jewish law, a convert is instantly as Jewish as any born Jew).

It is estimated that five thousand to ten thousand non-Jews convert to Judaism every year in the US alone. So much for Jews being a "race."

If one is born Jewish, though, isn't one compelled to remain Jewish? In Jewish law, once a Jew, always a Jew - unless one becomes a Christian, a Muslim or worships some other God. Then the situation is less clear. In any case, if you don't want to consider yourself a Jew any longer, no one will try to make you do it. It's estimated that about half of every generation of Jews is lost to secular assimilation or conversion to other faiths (mostly the former). If you're a Jew, the doors are not locked. Don't let 'em hit you in the butt on the way out.

Point two; "Racism" normally entails negative opinions or poor treatment of those outside the group, no? Consider this, from the often-derided book of Leviticus: "The stranger [i.e., non-Jew] who resides with you shall be as one of your citizens; you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt." [19:34)

This injunction is repeated many times in the Torah in various forms (Deut. 10:19; Ex. 22:20; Deut. 24:17-18; Num. 15:15) and is considered one of the most important precepts in Judaism. The long and intense involvement of Jews in human rights and civil rights movements worldwide is generally traced back to these teachings.

In Judaism, it is considered a greater sin to cheat or mistreat a non-Jew than a fellow Jew; it is called a khillul ha-Shem, a "bringing of shame upon the Name [of God]."
Is there another religion or nation or ethnicity on Earth that absolutely mandates good and humane and charitable treatment of those "outside the group" without reference to proselytization or recruitment?

Sorry. The Jews are no more "racist" than the Marines. Yes, we think it's harder to be a Jew than not; that's one of the ways we discourage converts. People should know what they're getting into. But still, anybody can join, and anybody can leave.

Don't bother to respond; you would only be making excuses.

[earendil]

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The OT says no such thing or anything like it. In Jewish tradition, the standards are higher for Jews than for non-Jews. We have 613 commandments; you guys have seven. If it turns out that we ARE talking about who gets into Heaven, Gentiles will have an easier time of it than we will. We don't get preferred seating.

The standards are higher for jews? How can you write this and not realize the intrinsic racism you are promoting?

If a group says "we expect more of ourselves than we expect of others", is that "intrinsic racism"?

When I was in the military we were constantly aware that as a "group" we expected more or ourselves than of others. Is that racism?

In all the religions in the world, only in judaism can you be born so. If that is not racism, then what is?

Can you honestly claim knowledge of the beliefs and practices of ALL of the tens of thousands of religions of the world?

Don't even bother to respond, because you will only make excuses.....and if you don't see the intrinsic racism of your above comments, then you are sick beyond repair.

Correction: Responses will demonstrate that your "arguments" don't stand scrutiny.

Sorry..I don't mean to be rude...but sometimes hard situations require hard words.

Hard situations often require hard analysis. I have seen no evidence of such in what you present.

It does not even require hard analysis as it is quite straight foreward.
The Jews were originally a race and by their writings it is OBVIOUS that they considered themselves God's chosen people.

Is that true or not? Do you deny that?

Thus they considered themselves special to God as a race. Now it is true, that they have allowed converts who in essence become "spiritually" part of the race, but I do not see how this eliminates the initial racially oriented point of view.

In fact, this is the reason that there is confusion about the word Jew. Does it mean a particular race or a particular religion. For example if I want to refer to that race which makes up the majority of the Jewish population, which word should I use?

Now I am not anti-semetic nor for that matter do I have ill will to any particular race. But I do dislike philosophies that imply preferencial treatment for a particular race. (The fact that preferencial may be "stricter" does not mean it is not preferencial.)

[earendil]

.....First, let's dispose of the "racism" idea. The Jews are not a "race." Never have been. There are Jews of every ethnicity on Earth; Caucasian Jews, Asian Jews, Black Jews, Arab Jews, Native American Jews, and so on. I personally know several Black and Latino Jews, and several of my students were Jews from India who were ethnically Indian. Historically, people who refer to Jews as a "race" have usually been antisemites, most notably the Nazis. Unfortunately, the error is a common one even among those who do not hate Jews.

The jews were NEVER a race???????????????????
(Well...I'm not sure how you would personally define the term "race"...maybe descendents?)

I laughed here. I complain about Judaism and you respond with the word Nazi.

Sorry, but past abuse does not turn bad philosophy into good philosophy.

[Zzyzx]

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For example if I want to refer to that race which makes up the majority of the Jewish population, which word should I use?

HUMAN

In fact, this is the reason that there is confusion about the word Jew. Does it mean a particular race or a particular religion.

I would not attempt to make such a foolish distinction. I leave that to others who utilize emotion and opinion in lieu of basing conclusions on evidence.

It does not even require hard analysis as it is quite straight foreward.
The Jews were originally a race

Kindly DEMONSTRATE that "Jews were originally a race".

First you will have to define race and show how it applies to human groups.

Before you can claim racism, you MUST identify that the "race" is valid identification of the supposed racist group.

It appears to me as though Jews constituted a tribe (or tribes) in "biblical times". I see no indication that any tribe(s) constituted a race. Kindly provide evidence.

and by their writings it is OBVIOUS that they considered themselves God's chosen people.

I agree that some Jews apparently consider(ed) themselves to be "god's chosen people". That is NOT unique among religious groups. Christians, Muslims, Shinto and others evidently consider themselves "chosen" by their favorite "god".

That alone does not constitute racism UNLESS race can be SHOWN to be a critical determining factor. That has not been demonstrated in this discussion (or elsewhere to my knowledge).

Is that true or not? Do you deny that?

I do NOT accept that Jews are or were a race. That has not been established by evidence. Your opinion (oft repeated) does not constitute evidence or proof.

Thus they considered themselves special to God as a race. Now it is true, that they have allowed converts who in essence become "spiritually" part of the race, but I do not see how this eliminates the initial racially oriented point of view.

You have not established any "initial racially oriented point of view".

You have ASSUMED an "initial racially oriented point of view" without demonstrating that it is true. The more you say the more obvious it becomes that this is nothing more than an assumption and personal opinion being expressed as though it was a absolute, established or generally accepted truth.

Now I am not anti-semetic nor for that matter do I have ill will to any particular race. But I do dislike philosophies that imply preferencial treatment for a particular race. (The fact that preferencial may be "stricter" does not mean it is not preferencial.)

Likewise, I try to avoid racism or other forms of generalization or bigotry.

Likewise, I disagree with any systems (philosophical or otherwise) that show favoritism toward any group based upon generalized rather than individual characteristics.

I do NOT regard a group holding its members to higher standards than others as being racist or discriminatory – provided that membership in the group is voluntary.

[Easyrider]

Did you guys ever come up with a better Greek word for virgin from that time period other than parthenos?

I snipped this bit out specifically

I guess you couldn't find a better one. So until you do, parthenos is it.

And nowhere in scripture is an almah seen as one who is either married or defrocked.

Hmm..so are you saying that the virgin mary was "living in sin" (NOT married) with joseph in some supposed cave or dwelling in "nazareth", for them BOTH to be have to go to bethlehem for some assumed census? Hmm as "defacto" was not neccessarily "the norm" back then, mary would have HAD to have been married to joseph for her not to be stoned to death as an unmarried pregnant woman. THAT is how "stuff" worked at the time, Easyrider.

<chuckle>

The child in her was conceived by God, the Holy Spirit, as the NT states. Saavy?

Secondly, frankly easyrider, if my OWN personal views even entered this particular equation, we would not be doing he said, she saids as to the meaning of almah vs bethulah, but instead we would be actually debating whether your bible jesus fellow actually lived in reality in the first place. As I DID state in my opening comment on this thread, I believe THAT should be established first.

When you're able to convince the Encyclopedia Brittanica that he was a myth then come back and see me.

... the evidences available as to almah vs bethulah, point to Matthews references of having been taken from misinterpretation BY the greeks of the hebrew word, almah. I am not saying that the writer of Matthew purposely went out of his way to LIE, but he just went with the info he was given at the time.

Again, then, what is the better Greek word for virgin during that time period? You need to identify it to make your case.

Perhaps as I speak several languages, I can understand that meaning and intent of word are many times translationed, and unfortunately sometimes miss the mark, as is what happened with almah being translated into pathenos, rather than what it should have been..... neansis.

Can you provide some scholarly opinions from theologians who buy into that?

[Goat]

Did you guys ever come up with a better Greek word for virgin from that time period other than parthenos?

I snipped this bit out specifically

I guess you couldn't find a better one. So until you do, parthenos is it.

In other words, you are ignoring this post from her , where she specifically said



You are incorrect and here is where the concept of mistranslation comes into it. The word they should have used to represent almah, should have been neanis rather than parthenos.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Page 12 Post 116

Opinion based on what I consider reasonable assumption. If this reply is out of line, please let me know, and I'll leave the thread for spamming it.

The Jews were originally a race and by their writings it is OBVIOUS that they considered themselves God's chosen people.

When I see a group, or race for that matter, that says "Here, come be one of us if you like, or not, that's cool too". How am to consider this as racist?

As a religious position, you're gonna get a certain air of superiority when one considers their brand of worship as 'the way' or 'the only way' or 'the one true way'. What I have seen countless times in these forums is Jews who say or imply, "This is how we figure it, if you don't, cool, if not, that's up to you and God."

Sure, some Jews would consider their position/belief/Jews as being superior in their religious beliefs. What they don't do, and these forums attest to it, is say "You ain't a Jew, you're gonna burn in Hell".

I can and will find threads to support that statement if challenged.

Now, let's look at what happens with so many Christians in these threads...Who here is gonna deny there are some Christians who tell you, as a matter of fact, if you don't believe/worship Jesus, you're gonna burn in Hell.

As an atheist, and observer in these threads, I look at these two groups, and I have what I consider reasonable assumptions:

Most/all Jews, from my experience in these threads alone, repeatedly claim theirs is a position you either accept, or you go ask God how it is He wants you to worship.

Many (to me) or Some (since I don't have exact numbers) Christians, from my experience in these threads alone, declare their unprovable belief so superior that all who disagree will burn in Hell. Non-believers are ridiculed, called fools, reprobates, and all kind of carrying on, simply because we don't believe/worship this Jesus. Many Christians in these forums are quick to use the Bible to insult non-believers, and act like they are only quoting 'scripture'. They are able to do so because it is written in a Book Christians themselves can't prove to be any more than the rambling writings of human beings. But that's fine for the Christian, because their holy book declares me all kind of insulting things, merely because I don't hold to their belief.

I can point to a thread that addresses this very issue if challenged.

I look to the people a religion creates, and I see what that religion's God has 'created'. What do I see? I see that from my experience in these threads Jews tell me, "Look Joe, you gotta believe me, I'm trying to help you out here, but if you don't, well God ain't gonna just hate ya outright". From Most/All Jews I get a sense they are trying to steer me right, but God ain't gonna just hate me for using what brainpower I have available in this life.

From Many/some Christians in these threads, I'm hearing if I don't believe in Jesus using what brainpower I have available in this life, I'm all kind of fool and reprobate, and all kinds of whatnot.

Then along comes a Christian to claim Jews are racist.

I get yet another claim from a Christian that assaults my senses, lacks any verification, and just really does nothing to persuade me it is true. Sure, there is a certain superiority when one claims their beliefs as the only way to God, I accept it to a degree, and see no inherent racism/superiority, again, to a degree.

I ask myself, what religion in these threads represents the greatest 'superiority' complex, and I am compelled by reason to conclude it is Christians.

(This opinion precludes Muslims, due to my perception that the numbers are too low to base a valid opinion (when drawing from these forums for my information))

Now, I try to temper my 'senses' with reason, and I have met MANY (and it could well be that MOST are) reasonable Christians in these threads, this is not a slam against these Christians, but meant to point out how ludicrous I find the notion of Jews being racists.