Sell your soul?

What would you do if?

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RobertUrbanek
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Sell your soul?

Post #1

Post by RobertUrbanek »

Would you sell your soul if someone offered to buy it? If so, what would be your minimum asking price?

Presumably, the transaction would require some kind of documentation, perhaps a notarized transfer of title. A few years ago, a young woman offered to sell her soul on eBay but I don’t recall if there were any takers.

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Kyrani99
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Post #31

Post by Kyrani99 »

[Replying to post 30 by Yahu]

What I am understanding from what you have written is that EVERYONE, including evil people, who accept Jesus as their savior, gets salvation.. i.e., get to go to heaven.

THEN there are rewards for how a person acts after they are given salvation. You say that they have entry into the capitol city and the tree of life. And "You loose the option to gain greater rewards" if you continue with major sin.

I know a lot of evil people, who profess to take Jesus as their savior, and who continue to do serious crimes. None of them have died a physical death plainly for the crimes that they do.

What I know is that the soul is eternal however there is still spiritual death. A soul may be existent in some state for an eternity, but that is very different from eternal life. Existing in a state of darkness and in the fires of their own rage is the fate of evil people. I do not believe that Jesus died for them at all. I don't believe that Jesus died to give a gift of salvation, but for the sake of this discussion, I will say that he did.

As I explained to you above, IMO sin is not an evil act, which is done deliberately against Justice. Sin is an act that is done, not seeing enough of the bigger picture. So for instance a person who murders another person out of extreme anger, having been seriously harassed over a long period of time, is not the same as the person who sets out to murder someone for the fun of it or because they want to gain an inheritance. Motive plays a big role in assessing what is sin and what is a transgression. Do you see all wrongdoing as sin? What do you call major sin?

There is one condition that I can see, which may apply to what you are saying.

If a person is selfish, in ways that are more than the simple form of selfishness that everyone can be said to have, then they are in effect dead, though appearing to be alive.

Selfish in common terms means that we tend look after our interests before we consider others but not necessarily always.

Selfishness is something seen in evil people. The following are the three main ones that I see, (and have been told about by some evil people), that evil people do.

1. Evil/toxic/psychopathic people seek to gain power and influence over others, with whom they are in relationship, including familial, friendships, romantic, work-related, social etc., in order to manipulate and control them.

2. Evil people also seek pleasure from seeing the suffering of others, whether they had acted in a way that brought about that suffering or not.

3. Evil people also hate Justice or Righteousness and will do whatever they can to violate these laws, especially in deceiving others.

In doing these actions these people have crossed an abyss and having done so there is no way back. This is death, even though they are still alive in physical form.

This is one of the reasons why I am not a Christian.
"We will be rewards for how well we follow the commandments. That is clearly demonstrated. Salvation gets us into the kingdom but our actions determine our status within the kingdom."

Salvation can only make sense when we are, by Grace, awakened in the Presence (of God). There is no hierarchy and ranks. And there are no evil people hovering around outside the "Capitol city" or at the foot of the "tree of life". IMO these are metaphors

I will quote you the prayer of Rabia, a Persian saint.
" If I should love there for fear of some burning hell, burn me in that hell.
If I should love there for want of some paradise, deny me that paradise.
But as I love Thee for Thy Sake alone, deny me not Thy everlasting Beatitude.."

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Re: Sell your soul?

Post #32

Post by puddleglum »

[Replying to post 28 by Kyrani99]
If in gaining forgiveness your nature is changed, then you can't possibly sin again.
Forgiveness doesn't change your old nature. It gives you a new nature that can't sin but as long as you are in this life you will still have the old nature and be capable of sinning.
His invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
Romans 1:20 ESV

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Kyrani99
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Re: Sell your soul?

Post #33

Post by Kyrani99 »

OnceConvinced wrote:
puddleglum wrote: [Replying to post 23 by OnceConvinced]

puddleglum wrote: [Replying to post 25 by Kyrani99]
Forgiveness for future as well? Does that mean you think that you can be as bad as you like and get it all washed away?
No. When we are forgiven we are also reborn with a nature that doesn't want to sin.
Human nature doesn't just suddenly change. The urges are always there because it's the way humans are. No Christian I have ever come across has suddenly found those urges suddenly clear away after repentance. They learn to control and suppress them, that's all. In fact most Christians will testify to the fact that they continue to struggle with the desires to commit the same old sins but Jesus helps them overcome.

Like Paul so eloquently put it:

I Corinthians 9:27: I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Human nature doesn't suddenly change. Some never changes, some does.

In Greek the words we associate with forgiveness are probably more descriptive than the English.
The first word for the English repent is μετανοώ, μετανιώνω
in English script: metanoisis, which is made of two words:
"meta" which means after and
"noisis", which means knowing or understanding.

It really describes a state after understanding what one has done in sinning. It actually constitutes a change of heart. So there is a change in nature, which ripens with understanding.

I would like to say something here about nature. A lot of people bundle everyone together and talk about "human nature". IMO there is no such thing. Humans are of two very different types. One is humane and the other is inhumane and their natures are the reverse of one another. The first has empathy and can be called warm-hearted, while the other has malice and is stone-cold-hearted.

The humane makes errors or sins, while the inhumane makes trangressions, deliberate hateful, harmful actions. The humane is capable of change because they only need to see their error or wrong doing. They can change when they become more in touch with their empathetic nature, a nature that is in tune with Righteousness.

The inhumane are incapable of change because they do wrong actions deliberately, not out of error. There is no "wrong doing" as in having done the wrong thing because of some error. The wrongdoing in this case is deliberate, it is knowingly done, not out of error. They act hatefully for the sake of doing harm. There is no change when the inner nature is evil.

So change is not a matter of controlling or suppressing. All that does is paper over a bad nature.

A person who admits that "they continue to struggle with the desires to commit the same old sins", given that they are genuine, is a person who has not yet had a change of heart. This is a prerequisite to even asking for forgiveness of another or God.

The second word, the one for forgiveness, in Greek is συγχώ�ηση, συγχώ�εση.
In English script the word is synchorisis and it is made up of two words:
syn, which means with or together, and
chorisis, which means accommodating or finding common ground.

So to be forgiven the two people (the sinner and the one sinned against/ or God) have to find a common ground, to be able to accommodate each other.
If the person who has sinned has had no change of heart and is capable of doing the same again, then forgiving that person is dangerous. Dangerous because you bring them back into relationship and on common ground. This leaves the person forgiving wide open for being wronged again.

If the person is an enemy then forgiving them is absolute madness. IMO Jesus never said to forgive enemies and love enemies. I believe that this was written in on behalf of the Romans. The same as "give to Caesar what is Caesars" rubbish. The Messiah came to rescue the Jews from the Romans, not to teach them to be subservient. The message of Jesus, if he was crucified, would have been insurrection! We don't give Caesar anything. Rather, we revolt against the tyrannical authority. Boot Caesar out!

God will forgive sin but the person must deserve it by showing a change of heart, which means they have become more in tune with their true nature. God sees in the person's heart and forgives them their sins. I don't believe that Jesus is anyone other than a prophet, who was the Teacher of Righteousness. That is why he taught "look within, within you is the Kingdom of Heaven".

IMO Paul is poverty, to put it in civil terms.

Firstly your body is hardly able to act independently of you, the personal self. You image catching your body stealing or murdering!

And secondly he's after some prize, which is a miserable nature. To become a "servant of God", to use the Christian term, one needs to lose self interest and become united with God/ God's will. To become an avatar of God, in that God moves you as God wills. This is not only not seeking some prize, this is becoming selfless.
"The Kingdom of God is within you" ~Jesus.

"To love is to know Me, thy innermost nature,
the truth that I AM!" ~Gita

I was drawn to the Beloved like a moth to a flame;
When I came to my senses I was burned up in the flame.
~ Asheq-e Esfahani

Ethics are spiritual but natural laws
http://liberatingethics.wordpress.com/

My criticism of the book “The God Delusion� by Richard Dawkins
http://kyrani99godnscience.wordpress.com/

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Kyrani99
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Re: Sell your soul?

Post #34

Post by Kyrani99 »

puddleglum wrote: [Replying to post 28 by Kyrani99]
If in gaining forgiveness your nature is changed, then you can't possibly sin again.
Forgiveness doesn't change your old nature. It gives you a new nature that can't sin but as long as you are in this life you will still have the old nature and be capable of sinning.
I completely disagree. No new nature is given. It is a case of "look within"!

The humane person who has gone wrong, the sinner, rediscovers their true nature. It is only that that nature is covered over because of personal self, the wrong identification of consciousness, which is of the Spirit, with the activities of mind, ie ideas, beliefs, perceptions and thinking etc. Once the perception, idea etc is seen to be what has lead them astray, they let go of it and move back to their original position.
"The Kingdom of God is within you" ~Jesus.

"To love is to know Me, thy innermost nature,
the truth that I AM!" ~Gita

I was drawn to the Beloved like a moth to a flame;
When I came to my senses I was burned up in the flame.
~ Asheq-e Esfahani

Ethics are spiritual but natural laws
http://liberatingethics.wordpress.com/

My criticism of the book “The God Delusion� by Richard Dawkins
http://kyrani99godnscience.wordpress.com/

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ttruscott
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Re: Sell your soul?

Post #35

Post by ttruscott »

Kyrani99 wrote:
Yahu wrote: [Replying to post 1 by RobertUrbanek]

I already have. That is what it means to be a Christian, giving yourself to service to Yeshua. What was the price? Well Yeshua died for me for the forgiveness of all my sins, past, present and future. There is no way the devil could out bid that!
This is Pauline Christianity and it is made up.
That Gnostics hate Paul does not make them right nor him wrong...dogmatism is the father of sarcasm.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Sell your soul?

Post #36

Post by ttruscott »

puddleglum wrote: [Replying to post 23 by OnceConvinced]
How can you be so sure that Yeshua has your soul? What if he decided you weren't worthy?
Jesus paid the price for our souls because he knows we aren't worthy. Jesus came to call sinners, not the righteous, to repentance.

YES as per Romans 3:24 ...and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

redemption - Strong's G629 - apolytr�sis
a releasing effected by payment of ransom
redemption, deliverance
liberation procured by the payment of a ransom

HIS justification was freely given, not earned, and was fulfilled by our redemption in Christ by HIS death.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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ttruscott
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Re: Sell your soul?

Post #37

Post by ttruscott »

OnceConvinced wrote:
Yahu wrote: [Replying to post 1 by RobertUrbanek]

I already have. That is what it means to be a Christian, giving yourself to service to Yeshua. What was the price? Well Yeshua died for me for the forgiveness of all my sins, past, present and future. There is no way the devil could out bid that!
How can you be so sure that Yeshua has your soul? What if he decided you weren't worthy?
For me personally my life changes and my character changes since my conversion have been dramatic enough for me to go from a mere hope to a certain hope. Actually if that is all that ever happens, I will still accept my repentance and conversion as the best thing in my life.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. This Spirit is indwelling and is discernable to the believer as a still small voice as well as the source for words from GOD that are quite recognizable as being special and out of the ordinary by non-believing non-religious (though elect?) when they hear them. The word of GOD carries the weight of truth to every sinful elect who hears them, not just believers...
Also isn't salvation supposed to be a free gift?
As sinners we do not pay anything for our salvation nor can we earn it by anything we do but it was not free to Christ who paid our ransom to sin (no anthropomorphism intended) to free us from sin.
Last edited by ttruscott on Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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ttruscott
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Re: Sell your soul?

Post #38

Post by ttruscott »

Kyrani99 wrote:
puddleglum wrote: [Replying to post 25 by Kyrani99]
Forgiveness for future as well? Does that mean you think that you can be as bad as you like and get it all washed away?
No. When we are forgiven we are also reborn with a nature that doesn't want to sin. If we give in to the desires of our old nature and sin anyway God will discipline us so that we will turn back to living the way we should.
No means yes.
I could accept the first part you said about being reborn with a nature that doesn't want to sin, though I don't see it exactly that way. However you contradict yourself in the next sentence. If in gaining forgiveness your nature is changed, then you can't possibly sin again. So really the future bit is accounted for in the change of nature. Why say it?
Being reborn after the death of our old nature so as to be free from the enslavement of sin does not imbue us with a strength of morality to resist our memories of the pleasures and profits of sin: Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. Free in this verse is "free from coercion" which refers to a free will to choose what we want un-enslaved to sin. This is apparent in that we have options and abilities to choose between them, to indulge in the flesh or to serve humbly in love.

No, the heresy that rebirth is to become an instant perfected saint does not fly, OR why then are all HIS legitimate Sons chastised with painful discipline to be trained in righteousness??? Are they painfully chastised for correct choices or failures to be correct? For lapses of morality for sure.

Heb 12:5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,

“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.�
7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.


So it is obvious that after rebirth by which we become the legitimate children of GOD, we still must be trained (not forced) in righteousness to perfect our holiness since holiness, a perfect commitment to our GOD, must grow from a mind that is free to choose to be holy without coercion.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Sell your soul?

Post #39

Post by ttruscott »

puddleglum wrote: [Replying to post 28 by Kyrani99]
If in gaining forgiveness your nature is changed, then you can't possibly sin again.
Forgiveness doesn't change your old nature. It gives you a new nature that can't sin but as long as you are in this life you will still have the old nature and be capable of sinning.
Will you consider this idea that the new nature cannot sin but is capable of sinning as suspect in light of Heb 12:5-11? It is the legitimate reborn with a new nature children of GOD who are chastised for sin, no?
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Kyrani99
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Post #40

Post by Kyrani99 »

ttruscott wrote:
puddleglum wrote: [Replying to post 28 by Kyrani99]
If in gaining forgiveness your nature is changed, then you can't possibly sin again.
Forgiveness doesn't change your old nature. It gives you a new nature that can't sin but as long as you are in this life you will still have the old nature and be capable of sinning.
Will you consider this idea that the new nature cannot sin but is capable of sinning as suspect in light of Heb 12:5-11? It is the legitimate reborn with a new nature children of GOD who are chastised for sin, no?
Firstly, I have no respect at all for the Apostle Paul because I have found too much of his actions and words don't hold to truth. So I dismiss this business about discipline because it won't yield results. It is rather like trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole. You can't take a psychopath and turn them into a saint. And I don't believe God would ever chose a psychopath to deliver His message.

If you meditate...

(as in the practice of the Essenes and the Gnostics, which is also found in the practice in Orthodoxy in the use of mantras repeated over and over, Kurie Leison -English Lord have mercy. This is the counterpart of the Sufi dhikr or absorption in the rhythmic repetition of one of God's names)

you will eventually discover that there are two natures. One is the spiritual nature, which is immutable. The other nature is that of personal self, which is essentially an ephemeral being BUT it does matter what conditions are chosen to be upheld in mind.

From my experience and what I have seen and discussed with others in various religious circles, the personal self is the identification with the activities of mind (thoughts) and the corresponding bodily reactivity. This means that the personal self can and does change. To give a very simple example, consider if you thought some object was toxic. Every time you are around that object, you might be cautious. This is a type of behavior. If you then find that the object is harmless, you will no longer be cautious so your bodily reactivity/ behavior has changed based on the ideas in mind.

HOWEVER there are also conditions, which are selected and upheld in mind by will or intent. These will determine the nature of personal self in a way that in some cases causes it to become fixed and not possible to change.

If the conditions upheld by intent are subject to Justice (Righteousness), then the personal self will be changeable. This is most obvious in the conditions that leads to enlightenment or apotheosis in Greek Orthodoxy. In the condition immediately before enlightenment the personal self is extinguished. Of course after that experience some personal self returns but it no longer holds center stage, which is a major change and which leads to more and more waning away. In this sense it is changed and changed in the direction that leads to a permanent enlightenment or we might call Union with God.

If however the conditions that are upheld in mind pertain to a unity with what we might call "the evil spirit" (arising as a result of a collective of evil minds), then the personal self becomes more and more fixed. In a sense we can talk about that person having crossed the abyss, so that enlightenment is no longer possible because extinction is no longer possible. This is a nature that cannot be changed.

I have seen many cases of psychopathic/ evil people, but one in particular that I can use for an example here. He had desperately needed my help and accepted my help , but at the same time never stopped being harmful towards me, when ever and where ever he could. I had to turn him away in the end because my own well-being was being affected. The attitude of evil people is "that's just who we are". Their intent, even in the most desperate situation, continues to be evil.

Forgiveness requires there to be a change of heart and out of that change of heart there is is a willingness to do whatever it takes to make up for the wrong behavior. This means that the person changes in some way. It doesn't mean that every other aspect of his or her nature will instantly become good, i.e., have a complete new nature. But it will be a significant enough change to cause the person to make changes to their other beliefs. That is where there is a real change because beliefs are instrumental in determining behavior.

Where I see a fallacy.
Paul is trying to sell the idea that if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior (and Jesus never said he was God), then you get given a new nature. But he knew that this was not practical. A person cannot change hinged on a belief that their sins are forgiven, taken on faith. That is why there is an "out clause" that says while all your wrong behavior is corrected, this correction could still go backward. To get forgiveness there has to be a change of heart. A belief taken on faith can't bring that change of heart. Without a change of heart no amount of discipline is going to make a scrap of difference.

God has given us free will, which means we are free to act in accordance to our own will. So no amount of being reborn will make a difference if there is no change of heart.
"The Kingdom of God is within you" ~Jesus.

"To love is to know Me, thy innermost nature,
the truth that I AM!" ~Gita

I was drawn to the Beloved like a moth to a flame;
When I came to my senses I was burned up in the flame.
~ Asheq-e Esfahani

Ethics are spiritual but natural laws
http://liberatingethics.wordpress.com/

My criticism of the book “The God Delusion� by Richard Dawkins
http://kyrani99godnscience.wordpress.com/

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