If you don't trust the Bible, Where do you look for truth?

[2timothy316]

What say you?
Also, if you don't see an option in the vote then add it in a comment.

[2timothy316]

This is a forum dealing with theology, doctrine and dogma. I figured people would comment where they get the truth for these things. I didn't realize I needed to restate this.

God is truth, I am told. So in finding truth one is inevitably finding God. I have said how one finds truth but, like you, I have no instrument that informs me if my find is just fools' gold.

You said, 'truth will come' but in what way and why can it be trusted?

When one seeks to discover things one does not always carry a picture of what one will find. Perhaps you are wrong in first deciding what truth is, and then "discovering" your own speculation. If what we have found leads us to give food to the hungry, water to the thirsty and to clothe the needy we may have a good idea we are on the right path. Or so Christ said.

I can't find an answer to my question in this comment. Would you like to try again or is this all you can offer? I'm leaning toward taking your comment as an 'I don't know' answer to my question. Which is fine, just looking for clarity.

You said of the truth about God, 'I have no instrument that informs me if my find is just fools' gold.' Are you calling this a truth? If so, what instrument did you use to come to this conclusion?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 10 by marco]

The Jehovah's Witness view of the bible :

• Full list of JW beliefs: https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... s-beliefs/
  

For a more details on the above please see my earlier post on this topic
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 428#868428

[2timothy316]

I have been told that the bible contains both excrement (excuse the frankness, but those were the terms used) and diamonds and that each person must use their own personal filter to decide which is which. As you know, I don't hold to this view but I think more or less that is the view of most people today, especially Christians. They may call the filter "God speaking to them", "critical thinking" or "holy spirit" but it still come down to not being able to accept everything in the bible as the Word of God.

I often refer to this as bejng taken out by "friendly fire"

I think there is something terrifying in thinking we have complete truth, as if God were small enough to get into our little room. I see fragments of truth in most posts and in many a great deal of sincerity. I don't for a moment think anyone possesses unblemished truth: there is a sprinkling of pride, triumphalism, contempt.... to spoil truth's effect. Truth is probably where one least expects it to be.... even in some of Marco's posts!

When you feel 'terrified', is this how you think you are directed to truth about God?

[marco]

I can't find an answer to my question in this comment. Would you like to try again
or is this all you can offer? I'm leaning toward taking your comment as an 'I don't know' answer to my question.

I won't "try" again since simplicity is hard to break down. Instead I will repeat, in case you missed out some words when you read my first post.

You asked: "If you don't trust the Bible, where do you look for truth?"


I said:

Literature is a rich source of truth: especially if we sample literature from various cultures. Dead people seem to speak most eloquently: the Chinese give us the thousand mile journey starting with the first step, Rome told us to seize the day and we learn the bitterness of regret in Russian novels while France has offered Proustian thoughts on a lost past.


You will see I have suggested many places. But, amazingly, I went further to answer your question:



There is also truth in silent contemplation: I can sit in an Italian church before a pieta and wisdom seems to nudge me rather wistfully. Some find truth on the top of a mountain - because it is there! - but I have always declined this route.


I guess you have a little book with answers at the back and my answers, not corresponding to the words written for you, have puzzled you.


That is what I meant by warning about having a preconceived answer, and then "finding" it. Not a good practice. If you are genuinely looking for truth, try looking in some of the places I suggested above. Be careful at the edge of mountains, though.

[marco]

When you feel 'terrified', is this how you think you are directed to truth about God?

I believe we both got our "truth" about God from the "wisdom" of some human who arrogated himself to the position of explaining divine truth. My guides were many centuries older than yours, I think.

Truth, as I suspect your question calls for, is self-persuasion that reaches the stage where one feels one is in a special position of possessing something no earthly voice told us. I think this is a bad situation since it appears to remove from us the useful faculty of discernment. I am reminded of Malvolio, duped into wearing ridiculous yellow stockings.

[marco]

The Jehovah's Witness view of the bible .........

I always look at your references but I shudder a little at the sentimentality of the pictures. They are poor replacements for the might and majesty of Renaissance art. I wonder what they've got to do with truth - they are more akin to the work of Hans Andersen.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 14 by marco]

Here is the link to my post.
viewtopic.php?p=972489#972489

Here is the question asked in it.

"You said, 'truth will come' but in what way and why can it be trusted?"

[2timothy316]

When you feel 'terrified', is this how you think you are directed to truth about God?

I believe we both got our "truth" about God from the "wisdom" of some human who arrogated himself to the position of explaining divine truth. My guides were many centuries older than yours, I think.

What are these 'guides'? Where did they come from? Is age the determining factor as to why you trust these 'guides'?

Truth, as I suspect your question calls for, is self-persuasion that reaches the stage where one feels one is in a special position of possessing something no earthly voice told us. I think this is a bad situation since it appears to remove from us the useful faculty of discernment. I am reminded of Malvolio, duped into wearing ridiculous yellow stockings.

Your suspicion is incorrect. Truth about God is something that exist whether I or anybody believes it or not. Truth about God is not in the eye of the beholder and it is not subjective but objective. It is truth that applies to everyone regardless of belief. With that in mind, if the Bible doesn't give us truth about God, what does and what medium can we find it in? Written form? Spoken form? A combination? Beamed directly into our head? Some physical form? A Spiritual form? Once we've found this medium how can we trust it is truth about God?

[marco]

[Replying to post 14 by marco]

Here is the link to my post.
viewtopic.php?p=972489#972489

Here is the question asked in it.

"You said, 'truth will come' but in what way and why can it be trusted?"

You will see that, on counting, you have now posed three questions. When you talk of "my question" it is understood you mean the question posed in the OP. I detailed the situations where one might experience "truth", whatever that might mean to a human being. The footnote on what constitutes truth would take up several volumes.

[marco]

What are these 'guides'? Where did they come from? Is age the determining factor as to why you trust these 'guides'?

People like Lafayette Ronald Hubbard, Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, Martin Luther, John Wycliffe, John Calvin . or the more venerable Saints Ambrose, Aquinas and Augustine.


Age? Some people write inspiring poetry; others play with God. Age descends on fools as well as philosophers.

Your suspicion is incorrect. Truth about God is something that exists whether I or anybody believes it or not.

True. It is the political handling of this truth that causes concern. Religious groups are founded on somebody's perception of truth even though, as you say, truth exists whether these groups grasp it or not. In your questions for me are you seeking truth or displaying the happy situation of your possession of it?

With that in mind, if the Bible doesn't give us truth about God, what does and what medium can we find it in? Written form? Spoken form? A combination? Beamed directly into our head? Some physical form? A Spiritual form? Once we've found this medium how can we trust it is truth about God?

As I have said, I answered the question about the locations of truth. For example, if I read Keats's Grecian Urn Ode I come upon "beauty is truth, truth beauty - that is all ye know on earth and all ye need toknow," and contemplating this statement leads me into areas of thought that seem mystically clear. You would like certainty but I believe someone said that involves death and taxes. When we read the Bible there may well be truth in the text but it is the meaning we extract that is important. Some read "Suffer not a witch to live" and were taught the truth that witches should be drowned. I do not have any compass that gives me truth's directions, nor do you.
In certain moments I can exclaim, on seeing something: "How true!" That's as good as it gets.