Jesus Way of Shepherding

[OneJack]

Jesus Way of Shepherding - COMING to and FOLLOWING the Lord Jesus Christ until the end,

Let's examine closely the flow of actions between the sheep and the Lord regarding salvation:


27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.


28. And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Read between the lines:

1. When we hear the voice of the Lord Jesus, we are known by Him.

2. When we follow the Lord Jesus, He gives us:

a) eternal life,
b) we shall never perish, and
c) no one can pluck us out of His hand.

There is no teaching of Jesus about 'free gift' or 'by grace, and the belief in the finished work of Christ to be saved, as you teach it today. Instead, those teachings are from Paul. Paul is not Jesus, even if you say he was sent by the Lord."

[OneJack]

[Replying to placebofactor in post #9]

And the dead in Christ will rise first: and shall they forever be with the Lord. I have absolute hope in my position in the Lord. Now you had better ask yourself the same question you ask me.

This is the second coming of the Son of Man, as mentioned in the teaching of the Lord Jesus in chapter 24 of the book of Matthew.

If you, as a biblical believer and follower, who has found absolute hope in your salvation through the epistles of Paul, what do you think followers of the Living Christ Jesus will be holding onto when the Son of Man returns in the clouds?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #8]

The bible nowhere mentions the words "immortal soul". The notion of an immortal part of a person that survives the death of the body is a pagan notion adopted by those that want to believe that a person's existence does not end when they die.

What are those souls mentioned below, are they not immortal souls?

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Is there word "immortal" or "immortality" mentioned in the text you refer to? I just mentioned a FACT, I have no intention to undermine your cherished beliefs, but it is indeed a fact that the two words "immortal" + "soul" appear nowhere [together] in scripture. In view of this, using our intellect rather than emotion we might well acknowledge there could be alternative explanations for the above passage that better fit with a more wholistic approach to bible understanding.

I wish you well in your investigation,


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[OneJack]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #12]

Is there word "immortal" or "immortality" mentioned in the text you refer to? I just mentioned a FACT, I have no intention to undermine your cherished beliefs, but it is indeed a fact that the two words "immortal" + "soul" appear nowhere in scripture. In view of this, using our intellect rather than emotion we might well acknowledge there could be alternative explanations for the above passage that better fit with a more wholistic approach to bible understanding.

I wish you well in your investigation,

Given our differing perspectives, it seems unlikely we'll converge. Whats best for you is a direct revelation from Jesus to liberate you from the interpretations that bind you in your reading of the Bible.

[JehovahsWitness]

Whats best for you is...{snip : irrelevant}.

If I want to be preached to I go to church, I come here for intelligent discussion not to be lectured to hear personal testimony from you or anyone. This is a debate forum, if you have a fact based counterargument feel free to present it if not , have a most excellent day.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

The immortal body that Paul was saying refers to our spirits, much like God and angelic beings.

Biblically, the a words "spirit" , "soul" and "body" are not interchangeable.

Man does not "have" a soul man IS a soul, does the bible not say "and man came to BE a living soul [Hebrew: Nephesh]?

The human body is perishable. Angel (and indeed Almighty God) have spirit bodies. Individuals with such spirit bodies do not have invisible souls inside them.

[OneJack]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #15]

What are these souls under the altar, which is not here on earth?

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

[OneJack]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #14]

If I want to be preached to I go to church, I come here for intelligent discussion not to be lectured to hear personal testimony from you or anyone. This is a debate forum, if you have a fact based counterargument feel free to present it if not , have a most excellent day.

What fact-based counterarguments can we present in this debate forum if direct revelations from God are not considered valid?"

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #14]

If I want to be preached to I go to church, I come here for intelligent discussion not to be lectured to hear personal testimony from you or anyone. This is a debate forum, if you have a fact based counterargument feel free to present it if not , have a most excellent day.

What fact-based counterarguments can we present in this debate forum if direct revelations from God are not considered valid?"

If your only support is what you claim to be a direct revelation from God, do not expect to be believed without presenting evidence.

Listen, I understand you cherish your beliefs and I in no way wish to belittle them, however in this forum I have come to expect reasoned arguments based (in this subforum) on scriptural evidence. I understand you may not be accustomed to such rigors, or feel able to do so , and I respect that most religious people hold to their persuasion by childhood indoctrination seperate from biblical study, but there are a number of posters here (of all persuasions) capable of respectful and vigorous exchange. If that is not your case, I wish you a most wonderful and peaceful weekend,

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[OneJack]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #18]

If your only support is what you claim to be a direct revelation from God, do not expect to be believed without presenting evidence.

Listen, I understand you cherish your beliefs and I in no way wish to belittle them, however in this forum I have come to expect reasoned arguments based (in this subforum) on scriptural evidence. I understand you may not be accustomed to such rigors, or feel able to do so , and I respect that most religious people hold to their persuasion by childhood indoctrination seperate from biblical study, but there are a number of posters here (of all persuasions) capable of respectful and vigorous exchange. If that is not your case, I wish you a most wonderful and peaceful weekend,

Arguments based on scriptural evidence often devolve into a battle of opinions on biblical interpretation. Since none of the participants were witnesses to the authors of the biblical books, the debate can become an endless argument. The likelihood of encountering the reality of God in this context seems slim.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #18]

If your only support is what you claim to be a direct revelation from God, do not expect to be believed without presenting evidence.

Listen, I understand you cherish your beliefs and I in no way wish to belittle them, however in this forum I have come to expect reasoned arguments based (in this subforum) on scriptural evidence. I understand you may not be accustomed to such rigors, or feel able to do so , and I respect that most religious people hold to their persuasion by childhood indoctrination seperate from biblical study, but there are a number of posters here (of all persuasions) capable of respectful and vigorous exchange. If that is not your case, I wish you a most wonderful and peaceful weekend,

Arguments based on scriptural evidence often devolve into a battle of opinions on biblical interpretation. Since none of the participants were witnesses to the authors of the biblical books, the debate can become an endless argument. The likelihood of encountering the reality of God in this context seems slim.

Well its been nice speaking to you, I presume given your comment here you will refrain from posting anything further to anyone, at least here in TD&D... that's a shame but I respect your decision to refrain from scriptural based discussion on theological topics.

Best Regards,

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS