The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[JehovahsWitness]

He is an heir to everlasting life. But He will not accept His inheritance,

So you are saying Jesus will not accept everlasting life because he already had It? If so why would God offer him something he already had?

If he didnt already have everlasting life and refused it when offered how can you say he has everlasting life?

[JehovahsWitness]

You are claiming...all spirit beings are created (by virtue of being spirits) immortal.


JW

Where do you get this stuff? ...Yes, all spiritual bodied beings are born of the Spirit (God) and are immortal spirits.

Here are the complete verses:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

First'part already debunked! SEE LINK: viewtopic.php?p=1054287#p1054287

... and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)

"Living forever" is equivalent to immortality.

SECOND PART: How does the above prove that angels are immortal? All that the above says is : God did not want to allow Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life since they had forfeited their right to live forever by their disobedience. No more no less.

If you feel that the above proves angels are immortal please use complete sentences to explain how that is the case.

I proved that angels are created as immortal beings according to the scriptures.

No you did not. You proved nothing of the kind, that is not true. You said it, you claimed it.... BUT you provide no scripture that proves it. The scripture that you provided simply stated by sinning Adam and Eve became like God "knowing good and Evil" and because of their faithfulness they would be barred from living forever

I am still waiting for proof angels are created immortal.




JW

[myth-one.com]

He is an heir to everlasting life. But He will not accept His inheritance,

So you are saying Jesus will not accept everlasting life because he already had It? If so why would God offer him something he already had?

If he didnt already have everlasting life and refused it when offered how can you say he has everlasting life?

<================ REPLY ================>

How many times am I going to have to explain to you that is NOT what I'm saying?

Jesus is a human. Humans do no live forever. So Jesus does not have everlasting life.

There are two type of beings defined in the scriptures: natural and spiritual. Natural bodies perish and spiritual bodied beings live forever.

The two testaments of the Bible are covenants or wills between God and mankind. Each describes the path to everlasting spiritual life for mankind under that particular covenant.

Being a man, Jesus was a subject of mankind. Being a subject of mankind made Him a party included as a possible beneficiary under the active covenant between God and mankind.

Under the Old Testament Covenant, the wages of sin is the second death, and the inheritance is everlasting life.

Jesus is the only human to ever live a sinless life under that covenant, and became the only heir unto salvation under that covenant.

Jesus will not accept His inheritance because He will offer it as a gift to humans who believe in Him as their Savior under the New Testament Covenant!

If He gives it away, He no longer has it!

So stop saying that He will not accept it because He already has everlasting life. That isn't a true statement.

One doesn't receive their inheritance until a will is probated. That will occur at the Second when all parties of the will will be brought together.

[tam]

Peace to you,

I'm kind of jumping in here real quick (so hopefully I am understanding the point), but to this comment:

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #138]

He cannot both accept His inheritance and offer it to us as a gift!

Sure He can, because He SHARES it.

One can receive/accept an inheritance and share it with others that one loves.

Just as Christ is the King, and He shares His Kingdom with His bride (who will reign as kings and priests with Him for at least a thousand years).

Christ is the LIFE, and He grants life to whomever He chooses. He is the TREE of Life from whom we may/must eat in order to live forever.

**

There was a comment in this thread earlier (perhaps another thread that is on the same topic, I do not recall), that said we receive 'immortality' - though I would use the words eternal life - for as long as we remain obedient. That sounds a bit ominous, and more like a warning. As if we will have to spend the rest of eternity in fear that we - or our loved ones - might be killed for disobeying at some point.

But that is not the promise or the hope. God - who does know the future and the way everything turns out (because He planned for it all beforehand)- KNOWS that there will never again be death, and He is so certain of this that the world of the dead itself (Hades/Sheol) is destroyed. There will be 'no more death or mourning or tears or suffering.' That is a promise from God (not a threat), and as a promise from God, it MUST be true. And God Himself will be 'all in all'.


**

But as for Christ and the Word (of God) - this is the same person. Different body sure (the glorified body, instead of the long garment of skin we currently possess that has sin and death in it), but the same PERSON.


You will still be the same person in the new body, right? You will still be you, just in a different body.

Well the Word became flesh for a while, but He was still the same PERSON, just in a different body.

Christ Jaheshua IS the Word.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: ... (Genesis 3:22-23)

So those other that Adam and Eve at the Garden of Eden are immortal.

The text makes absolutely no mention of immortality.

Indeed in what sense man became like "one of us" is clearly explained , namely {quote} "to know good and evil" end quote. God didn't say "man has become as one of us...immortal" He said ... "the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil". Indeed, the fact that because of their disobedience God took needed measures to prevent Adam and Eve from obtaining everlasting life indicates clearly that life is dependent on faithfulness.

Here are the complete verses:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)

"Living forever" is equivalent to immortality.

No, that is where you are mistaken. Adam and Eve were created to live forever, they were not immortal. They rebelled and thus lost their eternal hope. The same with Satan, before he rebelled. He had the hope of living forever and would have, just like Adam and Eve, if he had remained faithful. But he chose to rebel and lost his eternal possibility. It is clear that, though a being is created to live forever, that individual can ruin that by rebelling.

Immortality is the state of being in where you cannot lose it. As I have shown more than once here, Jesus alone had immortality at the time of Paul's letter to Timothy (I Timothy 6:16). So how can you speak in opposition to this plain truth? No one was created immortal. It depends on one's faithfulness.

[myth-one.com]

He cannot both accept His inheritance and offer it to us as a gift!

Sure He can, because He SHARES it. One can receive/accept an inheritance and share it with others that one loves.

An inheritance can be shared only if it is divisible -- such as money.

Christ is the LIFE, and He grants life to whomever He chooses. He is the TREE of Life from whom we may/must eat in order to live forever.

God grants everlasting life through Jesus Christ.

And He cannot grant life at present to "whomever He chooses", because He is obligated by a covenant to grant everlasting life only to those who believe in Jesus Christ:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And each believer shall have an everlasting life, not share an everlasting.

There was a comment in this thread earlier (perhaps another thread that is on the same topic, I do not recall), that said we receive 'immortality' - though I would use the words eternal life - for as long as we remain obedient. That sounds a bit ominous, and more like a warning. As if we will have to spend the rest of eternity in fear that we - or our loved ones - might be killed for disobeying at some point.

Once granted, eternal life cannot be taken away, by definition of eternal.

But that is not the promise or the hope. God - who does know the future and the way everything turns out (because He planned for it all beforehand)- KNOWS that there will never again be death, and He is so certain of this that the world of the dead itself (Hades/Sheol) is destroyed. There will be 'no more death or mourning or tears or suffering.' That is a promise from God (not a threat), and as a promise from God, it MUST be true. And God Himself will be 'all in all'.

After the last human has been granted everlasting life or cast into the lake of fire, there will be no more death as there will be no more humans.

But as for Christ and the Word (of God) - this is the same person.

If they are the same person, then Jesus was unnecessary.

The Word, being God, could not get mankind out from under the Old Testament Covenant. That could only be accomplished by a human.

The Word was made as a human, that human lived a sinless life and died without sin under the Old Testament Covenant, so that human became the only heir to everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant.

But that one inheritance is not shared as you claim.

Through the sin of one man, sin was passed to many men. Therefore, God allowed the one gift of Jesus to be passed to many.

Here's the biblical "legalize":

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Different body sure (the glorified body, instead of the long garment of skin we currently possess that has sin and death in it), but the same PERSON.

God says the two type of bodies do not mix:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

You will still be the same person in the new body, right? You will still be you, just in a different body.

No, we will be a new being:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

[myth-one.com]

Adam and Eve were created to live forever, . . .

If God created Adam and Eve to live forever, they would be alive today.

[myth-one.com]

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

How does the above prove that angels are immortal? All that the above says is : God did not want to allow Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of life since they had forfeited their right to live forever by their disobedience. No more no less.

If you feel that the above proves angels are immortal please use complete sentences to explain how that is the case.

God's concern is that they would eat from the Tree of Life and gain everlasting life -- "take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever!

Adam & Eve had become like the angels in that they knew right from wrong.

If they ate from the Tree of Life they would live forever and be like God and the angels which were present.

If doing so makes Adam & Eve live forever like God and the angels, then God and the angels live forever.

Live forever equates to immortal.

The angels live forever.

Thus the angels are immortal.

End of proof.

I am still waiting for proof angels are created immortal.

Now you have it.

Your wait is over.

[JehovahsWitness]

Adam and Eve were created to live forever, . . .

If God created Adam and Eve to live forever, they would be alive today.

Not if he offered it on condition.

The promise of everlasting live is conditional.

God created spirits to live forever, whether they do or not depends on if they choose to be faithful.

... as it has been pointed out, as long as a person or spirit being remains faithful, that person or spirit being will not die.

[JehovahsWitness]

I wont address your repetiton of your faulty reasoning, that has already been thoroughly debunked.
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38562&p=1054346#p1054346


I would like to clarify however on what biblically immortality means.

Live forever equates to immortal

No it does not. That which is immortal lives forever but that which lives forever is not necessarily immortal.

The Greek word a·tha·na·siʹa is formed by the negative prefix a followed by a form of the word for “death” (thaʹna·tos). Thus, the basic meaning is “deathlessness,” and refers to the quality of life that is enjoyed, its endlessness and indestructibility. (1Co 15:53, 54, ftn; 1Ti 6:16, ftn) The Greek word a·phthar·siʹa, meaning “incorruption,” refers to that which cannot decay or be corrupted, that which is imperishable.​—Ro 2:7; 1Co 15:42, 50, 53; Eph 6:24; 2Ti 1:10.

Source Insight on the scriptures VOL 1 p. 1189

The New Testament writers present the idea of immortality with (1) the nouns aphtharsia [ajfqarsiva],"not-perishable, " "incorruptibility, " or "immortality" ( Rom 2:7 ; 1 Corinthians 15:42 1 Corinthians 15:50 1 Corinthians 15:53-54 ; Eph6:24 ; 2 Tim 1:10 );and athanasia [ajqanasiva],"no-death, " "deathlessness, " or "immortality" ( 1 Cor 15:53-54 ; 1 Tim 6:16 ); (2)the adjective aphthartos [a [fqarto"], "imperishable, " "incorruptible," "immortal" ( Rom 1:23 ; 1 Cor 9:25 ; 15:52 ; 1 Tim 1:17 ; 1 Peter 1:4 ); and (3) the phrase "eternal life" (lit., "life of the ages, " zoen aionion)

Source: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/immortality/

IMMORTALITY then carries the idea of something which cannot die; something that is indestructible. It is as much to do with the nature of the person as with the length of time he lives. In other words its less about how long the person lives so much as how the person lives.

A human then can never be immortal since his life is sustained by breathing and having adequate supply of food and liquid. If you believe a human is indestructible, drop a large rock in his head or deny him water for a week, he will perish. God can grant a faithful human everlasting life (assurance he will forever provide that which he needs to sustain his life indefinitely ) but these humans cannot be considered immortal.

Just because angels are not dependent on physical sustenance this does not mean they are indestructible. Satan, for example is doomed to "the second death" meaning non-existence without any hope of future life.

So IMMORTALITY would be God sharing the same quality of life He himself enjoys, life that is self-sustaining ; not dependent in anyone or anything to continue. Not "plugged in" to Him (God) as it were, like a lamp to its power source but rather like a self-generating battery powered , self charging being. Jesus was rewarded with such a capacity as are faithful born again Christians; who will be resurrected To positions superior to the angels.




JW