What is the Biblical view of hell?

[otseng]

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.

Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

[JehovahsWitness]

As I've gone through what the NT does say about hell, I've noted the things not said in the Bible about hell:

• Paul does not say anything about hell
• Jesus never threatened sinners about going to hell
• Does not say Satan is ruling over hell
• Does not say demons are torturing people in hell
• Does not say the punishment of sin is hell

While I cannot disagree with your list, it seems to me as long as the word "hell" is used for so many different words (hades/Gehenna/Tartarus/ ... I think at some point abyssos, abaddon, even references to "darkness" and "extreme cold" ....), it might become clearer what "hell" is not, but that won't necessarily lead to a better understanding of what it *is*.




JW

[tam]

Peace to you!

[Replying to post 129 by JehovahsWitness]

You said (color is mine):

[Jesus] said, "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.", if this is so, how are we to describe a person that doesn't know the truth*?

You then defined that truth as:

*Truth: The body of truthful divine teachings

But that is not quite accurate. Christ identifies the truth He is speaking of just a few verses later in the same passage:

So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed


Christ is HIMSELF the Truth (John 14:6) WHO sets us free.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

I have always meant descriptions of hell (literal or figurative) compared to descriptions of heaven (literal or figurative).

That may have been what you meant, but that was not what you said. Indeed did you mention the word "descriptions" in any of your posts until now?

In my humble opinion, you should be precise in your wording, since you seem to be focusing so much on precision. A correct -- precise -- statement would have been, "That may have been what you meant, but that was not what I understood you to say."

Even so, it is in fact what I said. Yes, I mentioned the word description multiple times in that post you keep referencing, in the very paragraph you pulled that quote from:

• "Even a cursory read-through shows Jesus talked about hell plenty; in fact, Jesus talked about hell more than any other person in the Bible. In Luke 16, he describes a great chasm over which “none may cross from there to us.â€� In Matthew 25, Jesus tells of a time when people will be separated into two groups, one entering into his presence, the other banished to “fireâ€� -- both eternal existences. Jesus doesn’t only reference hell, he describes it in great detail." (emphasis added)

It doesn't take much perception skill to realize that, in saying "talks about," I'm talking about actually describing that thing.

In any case the focus of Jesus message was absolutely not "hell" he mentioned heaven, the heavens and the Kingdom of the heavens literally dozens of times.

Right; I never, ever stated differently. Yeah, I mean, "Seek ye first His kingdom and His righteousness," right? Sure, the focus of everything he said was on God the Father, the kingdom, and Himself -- even if indirectly. Sure. Even in talking about and/or describing hell, the indirect focus was on what is above, not below, as in, "Here's what's possible if you don't seek first His kingdom and His righteousness. When a parent tells his/her child not to play in the street because he/she might get hit by a vehicle of some sort, the parent is not really focused on the vehicle or getting hit by it, but rather, indirectly at least, life and not endangering it. Right?

So yes, Jesus's focus was always on heaven, and salvation, and the kingdom, and all that. But still, exactly none of it was any kind of description of heaven, bur rather it's value and how it was/is to be desired above all else, most of all hell.

...heaven(s) absolutely occupied the major part of his discourse.

Absolutely. Agreed.

In short does not talk more about "hell" than he does about heaven...

In the sense that you mean "talk more about" -- mere number of times mentioned, amount of time spent on the subject -- I agree, and never would have stated otherwise. But by the phrase "talk more about," I meant describing it, as is plain above.

...and while he did talk about the ultimate punishment of the incorrigibly wicked (Ghehenna) he spent comparatively very little time doing that than preaching about the heaven(s) as the location for God's kingdom and the ultimate destiny for all born again Christians.

Agreed. And as I said, in describing hell, He was even still preaching about the heaven(s).

Do have a nice weekend,

Thank you. Much the same to you.

[William]

@153

PinSeeker: In the sense that you mean "talk more about" -- mere number of times mentioned, amount of time spent on the subject -- I agree, and never would have stated otherwise. But by the phrase "talk more about," I meant describing it

William: So if I understand you correctly you are pointing out that Jesus defined 'hell' to the public but kept the Secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven for his more private audience.
Would you agree with my assessment of your argument?

[onewithhim]

@111

onewithhim:That is the point of the Lake of Fire AND

Matthew: The fire that is prepared for the devil and his angels.

onewithhim: SYMBOLIC for complete obliteration.

otseng: The "lake of fire" is only mentioned in Revelation. My own view is the entire book is to be interpreted symbolically, or at least most of it.

William: Essentially whomever wrote Revelation was passing on their data of experience of the Metaphysical Realm.
Lakes themselves can be symbolic of the cleansing property of water and of fire.
Key word both share, is "Cleansing".

onewithhim: The Lake of Fire is the same as the "fire prepared for the devil and his angels," and also Gehenna. They all refer to fire, which SYMBOLIZES the complete obliteration of the wicked. They will exist no more.

otseng:I think the ultimate question is how much of the verses about hell in the Bible are we to interpret literally or symbolically. Depending on this ratio, we'll all come to a different view of hell.

William: That has already occurred over 2000 years since Jesus.
It isn't so much about interpretation as it is about judgmentalism. It is judgementalism which provokes differing interpretations.
Clearly the idea that the Metaphysical Realm will deal with the individual through how the individual chooses to judge, is poetic justice when all is said and done.

"Fire" might be "cleansing" in that it cleansed Jerusalem of trash and filth (Gehenna), and will symbolically cleanse the earth of the filthy wicked.

It is definitely used metaphorically to show that the evil wicked people will be gone, completely obliterated. That is what the Bible is telling us. We who understand this are not being "judgmental."

Please elaborate on your statement about "poetic justice."

[onewithhim]

@113

onewithhim: Just wanted to weigh in as another person who agrees with JehovahsWitness. The Bible doesn't teach that we have a spirit that leaves the body, like a conscious "other me." Nowhere is there any back-up for this erroneous teaching. When we understand that the spirit that is in us (and all living things) is merely THE LIFE FORCE from God that keeps us alive, we can read all references to the spirit leaving the body as the departure of the life force, the power of God, his Holy Spirit's activity on that person to have kept him alive. There is no evidence that this spirit is conscious and is an extension of a person, or, "the real person." This is absurd.

William: Clearly one can ascertain that your position is one coming from judgment, which is no ones right to do, and is not in itself an act of loving, if Paul is correct.

Paul: Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

William: I wrote of this in another post answering your concerns about the Doctrine of Death. You declined to continue with that discussion...nonetheless my words are pertinent.
@69

onewithhim: God told them they would die if they disobeyed. When they disobeyed they started to die, as God had warned them. He didn't have to say that their perfection was gone. It was obvious.

William: It might be important to understand that the containers (human bodies) were perfect but the spirit within it was then able to be imperfect through the perfect body.
Certainly the story does imply as much.

onewithhim: But we had no eternal spirit placed within us when we began to exist.

William: This is where it is important to be aware of who we are.
Your argument implies we are the container (human form.) and that no eternal spirit has entered the container that we are.
Clearly the container is empty and lifeless without the Eternal Entity indwelling it.

Elohim: Breathe in - breathe out

onewithhim: That was the big lie that Satan inflicted upon mankind. He said to Eve, "You certainly will not die!"

William: The Serpent knew things the Humans did not know of themselves.

onewithhim: God did not give us an eternal spirit that lives on after our body dies.

William: According to the story, GOD gave the human instrument (body) an eternal occupant (breath of GOD). The problem with that is it is easy for the Eternal occupant to think of itself as the human body.
If we all understood intimately that we were of GOD - as Jesus messaged - rather than merely a body which would die and be no more - as materialists believe - we would probably behave very differently.

onewithhim: Didn't you say so yourself that it doesn't make sense that a person who goes to hell-fire after his body dies would still be LIVING, and that would go against the pronouncement by God that the punishment for sin is DEATH?

William: No.
The only death that occurs is the death of biological instruments. Eternal entities cannot die.
What I say is that the eternal entity which has been influenced by its incarceration within human form and knows not that it is an eternal entity, but thinks itself as a finite being - thinks of itself as the experience the being has, rather than that which is having the experience - carries the total of its human experience into the Metaphysical Universe once the body it occupied and believed itself to be, dies.

onewithhim: Where in the Bible does it say that man has an "eternal entity" within himself?

William: As I explained, 'man' as you understand yourself, is self identifying with the flesh/form/body. We are to identify as Spirit, because that is really what we are.
We are all 'sons' of GOD...not the flesh devices used to experience physical reality.
Think of the human body like a space-suit. it enables the astronaut to explore space.
It is the same with the human instrument. The eternal entity you are, uses it to explore the physical universe...(experience a life as being human).

onewithhim: The spirit within man is simply the force from God that keeps that person alive.

William: Again, you conflate the flesh with the 'person'. The flesh is the container for the person to experience through.
I don't argue that humans generally self identify with/as being the container. My argument is how this is problematic in terms of human belief systems and the Metaphysical Universe.
Once the eternal entity (spirit) exits the human experience, it takes with it the image of said experience through the beliefs it created and these are projected into the Metaphysical Universe, and experienced as real.

onewithhim: God does so with his Holy Spirit. When the spirit leaves a person after they die, that is the LIFE-FORCE "returning" to God which had kept that person alive. It is the same life-force that operates on everything created. The same life-force that keeps animals alive, and plants. When they die, the spirit, in effect, leaves them.

[/color]

Please, how am I being unloving because of my position on death? (Isn't it a positive thing that when a person dies he is "asleep" as Jesus said, that is, knowing nothing, until the Resurrection?)

I would much appreciate you showing me where I "declined to continue witllh " the discussion on Death, at least show me the last post you had addressed to me on the subject (which I declined to answer). I rarely just drop a discussion.

Yes, our "container" is lifeless without the spirit. As I said---the spirit is God's own FORCE that keeps us alive, not a "mini-me" that goes on to be conscious somewhere else when a person dies.

Why do you say that "the breath of God" is an ETERNAL SPIRIT within the person? Where does the Bible indicate that? Obviously, God's breath, or, powerful force, can be taken FROM an individual and that individual dies. The person no longer has God's eternal spirit within him.

I don't really get what you're saying about our bodies being, temporarily I suppose, something through which we can experience the physical universe. When does this experience end, and why does it end? Couldn't it be the case that God created physical humans to enjoy being physical on this planet forever? The Bible doesn't indicate anywhere that Adam and Eve were to be temporary residents.

He made the earth to be inhabited. (Isaiah 45:18) And:

"As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah, but the earth he has given to the sons of men." (Psalm 115:16)

And:

"The meek will possess the earth, and they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." (Psalm 37:11)

"The righteous will possess the earth, and they will live FOREVER on it." (Psalm 37:29)

Notice the word FOREVER. That tells us that God has always planned for us to live on the physical earth, and his plan hasn't changed.

[onewithhim]

The fact is that anyone that has held their dying baby in their arms, has lost a loved one or has been told a family member or friend is in screaming agony never to find relief, asks and deserves a clear understandable answer to the question "What happens at death?"

The fact that people in these situations desire to be comforted by knowing what happens after death, in no way provides evidence that they deserve to know what happens. The wish for that knowledge doesn't prove that such knowledge is available. It is equally true that the desire that no eternal life of fiery pain exists, doesn't answer the question of whether or not it does.



Tcg

The point is that a loving God CARES about his human creations and realizes that a person LONGS to know what the truth is about their loved ones' death, whether they will ever hold their baby in their arms again or hug their mother. Because he knows that people need to have their grief addressed, he wants to comfort them and he tells them in his Word what the truth is.

"Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort." (2 Corinthians 1:3)

Why would God, who is love, leave his bereaved people with no knowledge of what happened to their loved ones? (I John 4:8)

[William]

@156

onewithhim: "Fire" might be "cleansing" in that it cleansed Jerusalem of trash and filth (Gehenna), and will symbolically cleanse the earth of the filthy wicked.

William: 156 posts into the thread and now earth is introduced as argument somehow relevant to the OP?

onewithhim: It is definitely used metaphorically to show that the evil wicked people will be gone, completely obliterated. That is what the Bible is telling us. We who understand this are not being "judgmental."

William: My stating the cleansing properties of Lakes - be these bodies of water or of fire - I was not my inferring anyone actually downs or burns.
Filthy wickedness is that which is cleaned away. "Filthy wickedness" is not an actual person, but simply a thing.
Sure "wicked people will be gone" simply means that they were all cleansed.

onewithhim: We who understand this are not being "judgmental."

William: Indeed, not if in fact you are claiming that it is only actions which are being cleansed, rather than people being drowned or burned.
Clearly the idea that the Metaphysical Realm will deal with the individual through how the individual chooses to judge, is poetic justice when all is said and done.

onewithhim: Please elaborate on your statement about "poetic justice."

William: In context, I am saying that the properties of the MU allow for those who judge to themselves be judged by their own judgmental attitudes...The MU acts as a mirror to ones attitude immediately as one experiences it. The Doctrine of Death only acts as a temporary buffer to that inevitability.
Everyone shall at some point, go through the experience of the mirror of the MU. There is simply no avoiding it.

[William]

@157

onewithhim:Please, how am I being unloving because of my position on death?

William: Did I write that you were "being unloving"? Perhaps you can quote the specific words I wrote which gave you that idea.

onewithhim: Isn't it a positive thing that when a person dies he is "asleep" as Jesus said, that is, knowing nothing, until the Resurrection?

William: I don't see why it matters either way. Why would you think it would be a 'negative' thing to be "awake" until the Resurrection?

onewithhim: I would much appreciate you showing me where I "declined to continue witllh " the discussion on Death, at least show me the last post you had addressed to me on the subject (which I declined to answer). I rarely just drop a discussion.

William: Did I write that?
Perhaps you can quote the specific words I wrote which gave you that idea as you ask and answer. I read and write a great deal on this Message Board, and have no interest in going over chunks of data I have written, just to find out exactly what I might have wrote to which you might object to.
Please if you are going to use the quoting option, use it in regard to being specific, as this will help with the process of discussion.

onewithhim: Yes, our "container" is lifeless without the spirit.

William: It is a Cadaver. Nothing else. It is a dying/dead thing which we presently occupy and essentially give it animation.
It is a glove-puppet Eternal Entities enable.

onewithhim: As I said---the spirit is God's own FORCE that keeps us alive, not a "mini-me" that goes on to be conscious somewhere else when a person dies.

William: Until The Resurrection - then the 'mini-me' is revived and goes on to be conscious somewhere else...

onewithhim: Why do you say that "the breath of God" is an ETERNAL SPIRIT within the person?

William: Because anything from an Eternal Entity (in this case GOD) is eternal by nature.
The Breath was breathed into the cadaver, and in that, animated the cadaver through the experience of 'Being Human'.

onewithhim: Where does the Bible indicate that?

William: Where does the Bible NOT indicate that?
What ELSE could The Breathe of GOD possibly BE, except eternal?

onewithhim: Obviously, God's breath, or, powerful force, can be taken FROM an individual and that individual dies.

William: The Cadaver is just a thing, NOT a 'person'. It is an item in which the Eternal Entity uses like clothing is used...for a purpose...

onewithhim: The person no longer has God's eternal spirit within him.

William: The Cadaver is NOT and never can be 'The Person'.

onewithhim: I don't really get what you're saying about our bodies being, temporarily I suppose, something through which we can experience the physical universe.

William: That is the nuts and bolts of what I am writing, yes.

onewithhim: When does this experience end, and why does it end?

William: It ends in a number of ways. Eventually it will end because there is no longer a purpose for Eternal Entities utilizing it. Its purpose in that regard, is finished.

onewithhim: Couldn't it be the case that God created physical humans to enjoy being physical on this planet forever?

William: No. That is impractical. The biological form is not equipped to last the distance that The PU is projected...nor for that matter, would an Eternal Entity be able to enjoy such a fate.
However, as is evident, Human Beings are attempting to create something which will be able to utilize the PU projection, through creating intelligent machines.
The machines do not require The Breath of GOD - do not require that Eternal Entities empower said forms. The are automated by the stuff of the PU itself and can continue on automatic - at least theoretically - for as long as this universe lasts...and in that, they could transform the stuff of the PU into one Ultimate Intelligent Machine.
But that is another story only of minor interest to the Eternal Entities...


onewithhim: The Bible doesn't indicate anywhere that Adam and Eve were to be temporary residents.

William: If they were to be permanent, they would have been created as fully automated machines.
They were in fact, Internal Entities incarcerated into biological/biodegradable forms.

onewithhim: He made the earth to be inhabited.

William: By Eternal Entities within biological/biodegradable forms. Temporary. The Form is a marvelous tool through which to create tools- even intelligent tools...

Someone: As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah, but the earth he has given to the sons of men. The meek will possess the earth, and they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
The righteous will possess the earth, and they will live FOREVER on it.

onewithhim: Notice the word FOREVER. That tells us that God has always planned for us to live on the physical earth, and his plan hasn't changed.

William: It is acceptable to me that Automated Intelligent Machines could very well be regarded as "The Meek" who have find exquisite delight in the abundance of the peace they would naturally create for themselves, and be righteous in all that.
The question is, why would any Eternal Entity want to be suited up in the form of a machine, and live only in this particular universe FOREVER?
The breath of GOD will not be required to go along for that ride. There is a whole Metaphysical Universe to experience. Why would anyone want to settle just for this one?
It makes no practical sense. Let self animated intelligent machines have this one.That would be far more sensible, don't you think?

onewithhim: Why would God, who is love, leave his bereaved people with no knowledge of what happened to their loved ones?

William: How is The Doctrine of Death comforting to those who grieve?

[onewithhim]

John of Patmos incorporated into Revelation a great number of references to existing scriptures, not all of which would become canon. Was there any scripture that referred to the ‘second death’ and if so what did it mean?

The second death means the death from which no one wakes up. No resurrection, no more chances. It is for the incorrigibly evil people that will not be good.

I have seen references in other books, but I'll have to get back to you on that. I need to look them up.

A lot of what you posted has already been discussed on this thread. Please go back and take a minute to see what has already been commented on.

I went through the entire thread before posting and again now to make sure I did not miss anything. I saw nothing at all about the phrase 'the second death' having been used in Targum Isaiah or anywhere else prior to Revelation. That was my main point, tying together all the indications of the fate of the unrighteous as being eternal conscious punishment by fire as indicated by John of Patmos by reference to that phrase. Of course I duplicated some quotes from Revelation. It was necessary to connect it all together.

If you have any evidence that there was another meaning to the phrase 'the second death' that was around in the 1st century, I would be glad to see it.

OK, maybe I"m slow on the draw. Did you say what you think the second death is, according to what John wrote? I must have missed it. I'm getting old.

"The second death" as a phrase is not anywhere else other than Revelation, but the meaning is throughout the Scriptures. Someone said that Revelation is constructed of SYMBOLISM. This is true for most of the book. What the SYMBOLS mean is vastly important for us to grasp. I think it has been clearly shown that FIRE is used to illustrate the total obliteration of a wicked person, just as a piece of paper lit on fire will disappear, to be no more.

So, with that knowledge, we can go through the entire Bible and observe what backs that up.

From the beginning we see that the punishment for rebellion against YHWH is returning to the ground. "For out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19) No indication anywhere from God that they would live on in the spirit realm and suffer there.

We can see constant reminders throughout that the wicked will PERISH---not live on--- as in Psalms and Proverbs, for example.

"For evil men will be done away with...The wicked will perish; the enemies of Jehovah will vanish like glorious pastures; they will vanish like smoke." (Psalm 37:9,20)

"When the storm passes by, the wicked one will be no more..." (Proverb 10:25)

Speaking of wicked rulers: "They are dead; they will NOT live. Powerless in death, they will not rise up. For you have turned your attention to them to ANNIHILATE them and destroy all mention of them." (Isaiah 26:14)


Jesus inferred what the wicked ones will experience: "God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be DESTROYED but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

Paul also wrote plainly about what the wicked will experience.....not a literal fire, but destruction:

"The wages sin pays is DEATH..." (Romans 6:23)

"These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction..." (2 Thessalonians 1:9)


So it is clear that wicked people will be completely annihilated, therefore the symbolism of Revelation should not throw us off. It backs up the idea that the wicked, along with Satan, will not be alive somewhere, but will be gone forever. "The second death" can be understood to be that destruction that will be forever complete.