#1 Jesus on hell

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

[2timothy316]

now your are contradicting yourself and that is why you do not wish to discuss it further. You're caught in your own corner. They either know something of their life or they know nothing, it can't be both as the scriptures doesn't support both.

Where specifically did I contradict myself, 2timothy316? I did not. Thank you for pointing out specifically where you think I did, and giving me the chance to respond. I was very clear, but I will clarify yet again:

They are gone from this life, so in this life, they have no memory of anything; they know nothing, because they are gone from this life -- life under the sun. Where they have gone to in the afterlife is not in view -- or what their state is, or whether they know anything or remember anything in the afterlife is not being addressed, because the afterlife is not being spoken of in any way. And the reason we know that is because, in the context of Ecclesiastes, only life under the sun (and lack thereof) is being spoken of. That I should have to clarify this is, quite frankly, incredible. Wow.

Grace and peace to you.

Yet the Bible specifically names things that will not be remembered.
There are no emotions like, love, hate, jealousy, it's all dead. There is no work, no wisdom in the grave. (Ecc 9:6, 10)
The Bible says they are silent. (Ps 115:17)
Jesus called Lazarus asleep when he died. (John 11:11)

LOL!!! Right, IN THIS LIFE, regarding THIS LIFE -- the temporal -- because they are gone from it. Again, where they have gone to in the afterlife is not in view -- or what their state is, or whether they know anything or remember anything in the afterlife is not being addressed, because the afterlife is not being spoken of in any way. Incredible.

Grace and peace to you.

You said, "anything in the afterlife is not being addressed." which is false because it is addressed in Ecc 9:6, 10
There is no love, hate, wisdom, or knowledge in the grave.

[PinSeeker]

You said, "anything in the afterlife is not being addressed." which is false because it is addressed in Ecc 9:6, 10

The writer of Ecclesiastes -- and ultimately God in the Person of the Holy Spirit -- is telling us what to do IN THIS LIFE because our experience in this life will come to an end... death comes to all. He is telling us what to do IN VIEW OF THE FACT THAT death will come, without fail. The "work or thought or knowledge or wisdom" spoken of in verse 10 is all work, thought, knowledge, or wisdom experienced in this life, under the sun, which is no more. The afterlife itself is not discussed and is not in view. What I said is absolutely correct... though certainly you can disagree all you want...

Grace and peace to you.

[2timothy316]

You said, "anything in the afterlife is not being addressed." which is false because it is addressed in Ecc 9:6, 10

The writer of Ecclesiastes -- and ultimately God in the Person of the Holy Spirit -- is telling us what to do IN THIS LIFE because our experience in this life will come to an end... death comes to all. He is telling us what to do IN VIEW OF THE FACT THAT death will come, without fail. The afterlife itself is not discussed and is not in view. What I said is absolutely correct... though certainly you can disagree all you want...

Grace and peace to you.

What it says here is absolutely correct.
"Work hard at whatever you do. You will soon go to the world of the dead, where no one works or thinks or reasons or even knows anything." - Ecc 9:10 Contemporary English Version
The reason I disagree with you is because you parrot a doctrine that disagrees with the Bible.

Anytime a person must put, 'this is what this what God is telling us' with their Bible quotes should draw automatic red flag for anyone listening to someone's interpretations.

Note I have added nothing to scripture. I just quoted it and let God speak. Without me adding anything to the scripture, it is clearly speaking about what a person knows when they are dead. I don't have to say 'here is what it really means' thinking I have to speak for God. But YOU DO!

I'm extremely happy so many on this thread join me in disagreeing with your interpretations of Ecclesiastes. I love watching the eternal torture doctrine lose more and more believers in it. It warms my heart to see people find truth when they let the Bible speak.

[PinSeeker]

"Work hard at whatever you do. You will soon go to the world of the dead, where no one works or thinks or reasons or even knows anything." - Ecc 9:10 Contemporary English Version

What it says here is absolutely correct.

You're taking it, 2timothy316, out of context. Verses 9 and 10 taken together give us the proper context (emphasis mine):

• "Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your vain life that he has given you under the sun, because that is your portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going."

So, the work or thought or knowledge or wisdom referred to is that experienced or done under the sun, in this life. In no way is there any implication whatsoever that there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom or lack thereof in the life to come, but just that the work, thought, knowledge, and wisdom now, in this life, "under the sun" will not be experienced or attainable when one passes from this life under the sun. It's not rocket science.

Anytime a person must put, 'this is what this what God is telling us' with their Bible quotes should draw automatic red flag for anyone listening to someone's interpretations.

LOL!

Note I have added nothing to scripture. I just quoted it and let God speak.

Right, but that changeth not the fact that you are (at best) misunderstanding the writer of Ecclesiastes (and ultimately God).

...it is clearly speaking about what a person knows when they are dead.

Absolutely not. But hey, think what you will.

I don't have to say 'here is what it really means' thinking I have to speak for God. But YOU DO!

As I have said, think as you will.

I'm extremely happy so many on this thread join me in disagreeing with your interpretations of Ecclesiastes.

Hmmm, well, "extremely happy" seems a bit fanatical. But as for "happy," but me, too, actually; I'm delighted to speak to them in the same graceful manner as I have you.

I love watching the eternal torture doctrine lose more and more believers in it. It warms my heart!

Ah, the "torture" meme again... Well, this conversation has been a bit torturous...

Grace and peace to you.

[2timothy316]

I love watching the eternal torture doctrine lose more and more believers in it. It warms my heart!

Ah, the "torture" meme again... Well, this conversation has been a bit torturous...

Grace and peace to you.

Not to me. I have thoroughly enjoyed watching the doctrine get ripped to shreds. So many have made excellent points and I am stronger in my faith than what I was before by what they have pointed out and my own research that there is no eternal torture.

[2timothy316]

"Work hard at whatever you do. You will soon go to the world of the dead, where no one works or thinks or reasons or even knows anything." - Ecc 9:10 Contemporary English Version

What it says here is absolutely correct.

You're taking it, 2timothy316, out of context. Verses 9 and 10 taken together give us the proper context (emphasis mine):

• "Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your vain life that he has given you under the sun, because that is your portion in life and in your toil at which you toil under the sun. Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going."

Adding verse 9 doesn't change verse 10 speak for, "the afterlife itself is not discussed and is not in view" dogma.
Ecc 9:9, 10 DOES discuss what happens in the afterlife. No one thinks, or reasons, or even knows anything in the WORLD OF THE DEAD. Or in Sheol or grave or whatever it is translated as where dead people are. The very place you're trying to say people know something the Bible clearly says the where the dead people are, they don't reason, they don't think, they don't know anything when they are no longer under the sun. Guess where a person is that is no longer under the sun? They are under the dirt. Like the Bible says, "he returns to the ground." (Ps 146:4)

[PinSeeker]

I love watching the eternal torture doctrine lose more and more believers in it. It warms my heart!

Ah, the "torture" meme again... Well, this conversation has been a bit torturous...

Grace and peace to you.

Not to me.

Right, well that would be because I've been graceful -- or at least tried very hard to be -- and not torturing...

I have thoroughly enjoyed watching the doctrine get ripped to shreds.

It's easy to "rip something to shreds" when you take it totally out of its context. So your enjoyment seems disingenuous and possibly a bit sadistic. But, like I said, you're your own person, certainly.

So many have made excellent points and I am stronger in my faith than what I was before by what they have pointed out and my own research that there is no eternal torture.

LOL! "Torture," yet again... My advice would be to reexamine those "points," and possibly even your "faith" and where it might possibly really be.

Grace and peace to you.

[2timothy316]

I love watching the eternal torture doctrine lose more and more believers in it. It warms my heart!

Ah, the "torture" meme again... Well, this conversation has been a bit torturous...

Grace and peace to you.

Not to me.

Right, well that would be because I've been graceful -- or at least tried very hard to be -- and not torturing...

Nah. It's easy when a doctrine is wrong to coast through debates like this and not be tortured at all. Being on the side of truth makes everything easy.

I have thoroughly enjoyed watching the doctrine get ripped to shreds.

It's easy to "rip something to shreds" when you take it totally out of its context. So your enjoyment seems disingenuous and possibly a bit sadistic. But, like I said, you're your own person, certainly.

I've taken nothing out of context. I've read the whole book of Ecc more times than I can count and I get the same conclusion. No one knows anything about anything after they are dead.

So many have made excellent points and I am stronger in my faith than what I was before by what they have pointed out and my own research that there is no eternal torture.

LOL! "Torture," yet again... My advice would be to reexamine those "points," and possibly even your "faith" and where it might possibly really be.

My faith is not in your interpretations that is for sure. Look at how many times you want me to look at what YOU say and want me to take YOUR advice. Bleah, no thank you. The Bible and what it plainly says without YOUR commentary is enough for me.

[PinSeeker]

Adding verse 9 doesn't change verse 10 speak for, "the afterlife itself is not discussed and is not in view" dogma.

No, it makes it clear and reinforces it, which is the point. Your denial is the problem.

Ecc 9:9, 10 DOES discuss what happens in the afterlife.

No, life under the sun" is clearly referred to twice in verse 9, and it sets up verse 10 to describes what will not be present -- the experiences of this life (under the sun) -- in the afterlife, because at that point, they will no longer be in this life (under the sun). Like I said, it's not rocket science.

The very place you're trying to say people know something the Bible clearly says the where the dead people are, they don't reason, they don't think, they don't know anything.

No, it says they don't reason, think, or know anything in the same manner as those still living do, because they are no longer living. It does not indicate the lack of ability to reason, think, or know anything at all in the afterlife. If it did, that would actually render Jesus's parable in Luke 16 null and void and thus useless, which surely is not the case.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

It's easy when a doctrine is wrong...

It's not, but I'm fine with you saying that...

...to coast through debates like this...

Right, without thinking, apparently... or possibly thinking in the sense of conniving and twisting...

...and not be tortured at all.

Wasn't talking about you...

Being on the side of truth makes everything easy.

Agreed, but being right about that truth is a different thing...

I've taken nothing out of context.

Yes you have. That you don't realize it is clear.

I've read the whole book of Ecc more times than I can count and I get the same conclusion.

Mere repetition doesn't do the trick.

No one knows anything about anything after they are dead.

Well, the key word there is 'knows,' which biblically can be understood as 'experiences.' No one experiences anything of this life in this life when they leave it. But that's surely not to say that there are no more experiences altogether once one leaves this life under the sun.

My faith is not in your interpretations that is for sure.

Right, it's in yours. And that's my point. Our interpretations -- we all interpret -- are not the source of our faith... or shouldn't be.

Look at how many times you want me to look at what YOU say and want me to take YOUR advice.

I just want you to understand, to hear Him rightly, and believe the Lord. But, as the old country song goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Bleah, no thank you.

LOL!!! Fair enough.

The Bible and what it plainly says without YOUR commentary is enough for me.

Me, too. Fair enough.

Grace and peace to you.