The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[2timothy316]

Adam and Eve were created to live forever, . . .

If God created Adam and Eve to live forever, they would be alive today.

Not if he offered it on condition.

The condition for A&E was...

"Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: "From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die." - Gen 2:16, 17

They would be alive today if they had met the conditions set by Jehovah.

[onewithhim]

Adam and Eve were created to live forever, . . .

If God created Adam and Eve to live forever, they would be alive today.

They would be if they had not deliberately rebelled. The Fall of Man 101.

[myth-one.com]

Satan is indestructible, having been created as a spiritual bodied being. ... Satan is immortal and definitely incapable of dying -- as is every other spiritual bodied being

So what happens to "death" which is also thrown into the lake of fire along with Satan?

After the last living human being is either born again as a spirit into the spiritual Kingdom of God, or cast into the lake of fire and quickly dies the second death, there will never again be any need for death and hell (where hell means the grave) because there will be no living humans. At that time, all living intelligent life will be immortal spiritual beings.

Thus, there will be no more death! Death has thus been defeated as prophesied:

The last enemy that shall be defeated is death.

[myth-one.com]

Adam and Eve were created to live forever, . . .

If God created Adam and Eve to live forever, they would be alive today.

They would be if they had not deliberately rebelled. The Fall of Man 101.

Yes, they sinned, and they died.

By dying, they proved that they were not created to live forever.

[tam]

Peace to you,

He cannot both accept His inheritance and offer it to us as a gift!

Sure He can, because He SHARES it. One can receive/accept an inheritance and share it with others that one loves.

An inheritance can be shared only if it is divisible -- such as money.

An inheritance can indeed be shared. One can accept it and share it with others. Just as Christ does with His Kingdom and reign (though He Himself is the King of kings).

Now if we are children, then we are heirsheirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. Romans 8:17

This is a trustworthy saying: If we died with Him, we will also live with Him; 12if we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He will also deny us; 2 Tim 2:12

Christ is the LIFE, and He grants life to whomever He chooses. He is the TREE of Life from whom we may/must eat in order to live forever.

God grants everlasting life through Jesus Christ.

For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. John 5:21

Yes, that power and authority comes from His Father, but the Son has authority to give life to whomever He is pleased to give it. He is the One who can keep or blot out names from the Lamb's book of Life. Right?

(Though of course the Father may have mercy upon whomever He chooses.)

And He cannot grant life at present to "whomever He chooses", because He is obligated by a covenant to grant everlasting life only to those who believe in Jesus Christ:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And each believer shall have an everlasting life, not share an everlasting.

See again John 5:21. As to the rest of what you have said here, yes, each one of these people shall have everlasting life. (others will also receive entrance into the Kingdom and eternal life, as subjects of the Kingdom, rather than as king-priests with Christ).

I don't know what you are referring to when you say 'share an everlasting'.

There was a comment in this thread earlier (perhaps another thread that is on the same topic, I do not recall), that said we receive 'immortality' - though I would use the words eternal life - for as long as we remain obedient. That sounds a bit ominous, and more like a warning. As if we will have to spend the rest of eternity in fear that we - or our loved ones - might be killed for disobeying at some point.

Once granted, eternal life cannot be taken away, by definition of eternal.

But that is not the promise or the hope. God - who does know the future and the way everything turns out (because He planned for it all beforehand)- KNOWS that there will never again be death, and He is so certain of this that the world of the dead itself (Hades/Sheol) is destroyed. There will be 'no more death or mourning or tears or suffering.' That is a promise from God (not a threat), and as a promise from God, it MUST be true. And God Himself will be 'all in all'.

After the last human has been granted everlasting life or cast into the lake of fire, there will be no more death as there will be no more humans.

There will be no more death because death has been defeated and destroyed.

And as stated in the previous post, we (who are granted life) will have access to the Tree of Life, from which one must eat in order to live forever.

But as for Christ and the Word (of God) - this is the same person.

If they are the same person, then Jesus was unnecessary.

The Word, being God, could not get mankind out from under the Old Testament Covenant. That could only be accomplished by a human.

The Word is Christ (Jaheshua), the SON of God.

God Himself cannot die of course, but He sent His Son, His representative and Living Image, who took the form of a human, and who remained faithful to God (obeying God even to death), whereas Adam proved to be unfaithful to God.

Adam sold mankind into slavery (to sin and Death).

Christ purchased mankind back (to God, to life), by giving His own life as a ransom payment to Death.


Christ could do this BECAUSE His life is worth enough to cover all the rest of life in the world.

The Word was made as a human, that human lived a sinless life and died without sin under the Old Testament Covenant, so that human became the only heir to everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant.

But that one inheritance is not shared as you claim.

Through the sin of one man, sin was passed to many men. Therefore, God allowed the one gift of Jesus to be passed to many.

First, eternal life is a GIFT.

Second, if you are going to compare them (Adam and Christ) then you should remember that Adam - through whom DEATH entered the world - died.

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 1Corinth 15:20-22


If the 'effect' of Adam's sin was death (even for Adam), why wouldn't the effect of Christ's love and obedience and righteousness not be life, even for Himself?

Here's the biblical "legalize":

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Sure, but I don't know why you think that must mean that Christ cannot also have eternal life?

I mean, He IS the Life... He gave His life, and died, but Death could not hold Him. Hence, the resurrection, and hence, He is alive. In the new body, sure, the glorified body, but He is still the same person (the same thoughts, the same emotions, the same memories, everything that makes a person a unique individual). Just with a change of clothing (from the long garment of skin that we inherited from Adam, to the white robe that has no sin or death in it, but only LIFE in it. That, as the spirit reminded me just now, is what the multi-colored coat that Joseph wore was trying to represent. All colors = white.)

Different body sure (the glorified body, instead of the long garment of skin we currently possess that has sin and death in it), but the same PERSON.

God says the two type of bodies do not mix:

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

You will still be the same person in the new body, right? You will still be you, just in a different body.

No, we will be a new being:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

I don't think you're hearing what I am saying, at the very least there is some kind of miscommunication going on.

You - the person you are - everything that makes up who you are (your thoughts, consciousness, memories, emotions, personality, etc)... that is YOU. That is the person you ARE. YOU will still be YOU, regardless of what body you are in.

Otherwise, who would care if there is a resurrection, because the new being would not be you. It would be a completely different person, and you - the person you are - would be dead forever.


Christ is still the same person (thoughts, consciousness, memories, emotions, personality, sonship, etc). He did not cease to exist. He - HIMSELF - was resurrected. He - HIMSELF - spoke to His disciples, ate with them. He - HIMSELF - ascended into heaven. He - Himself - sent that revelation to John, after His death, resurrection and ascension. He absolutely lived and lives.

Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne, and from [Jesus] Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Rev 1:4, 5

"I, [Jesus], have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star." Rev 22:16

He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord [Jesus]. Rev 22:20



May anyone who wishes them be granted ears to hear, so as to get a sense of these things, and to hear also as the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come!" May anyone thirsting and anyone seeking, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of life!"




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ Jaheshua,
tammy

[2timothy316]

Adam and Eve were created to live forever, . . .

If God created Adam and Eve to live forever, they would be alive today.

They would be if they had not deliberately rebelled. The Fall of Man 101.

Yes, they sinned, and they died.

By dying, they proved that they were not created to live forever.

Jesus died, does that prove that he was not created to live forever?

[myth-one.com]

Adam and Eve were created to live forever, . . .

If God created Adam and Eve to live forever, they would be alive today.

They would be if they had not deliberately rebelled. The Fall of Man 101.

Yes, they sinned, and they died.

By dying, they proved that they were not created to live forever.

Jesus died, does that prove that he was not created to live forever?

Exactly, He was created as a man so that He could die:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

[2timothy316]

Adam and Eve were created to live forever, . . .

If God created Adam and Eve to live forever, they would be alive today.

They would be if they had not deliberately rebelled. The Fall of Man 101.

Yes, they sinned, and they died.

By dying, they proved that they were not created to live forever.

Jesus died, does that prove that he was not created to live forever?

Exactly, He was created as a man so that He could die:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

You changed the subject. This doesn't answer my question. Does the death of Jesus prove that he was not meant to live forever? Because you said of A&E, "By dying, they proved that they were not created to live forever."

Is Jesus alive or dead today as in right this moment? Was Jesus denied eternal life because he died?

[JehovahsWitness]

Death has thus been defeated as prophesied:

The last enemy that shall be defeated is death.

What does it mean defeated ? Does death* continue to exist after it has been thrown into The lake of fire? Or does death cease to exist after it has been thrown into The lake of fire?Which is It? Death being "thrown in the lake of fire" means it (death) continues to exist or it ceases to exist? Its one or the other[/quote].


* Adamic death

I don't expect a direct answer from you because I suspect you know that if DEATH, being thrown into the lake of fire represents it CEASING TO EXIST it means the same thing (ceasing to exist) for whoever and whatever ends up in it.

JW

[myth-one.com]

You changed the subject. This doesn't answer my question. Does the death of Jesus prove that he was not meant to live forever? Because you said of A&E, "By dying, they proved that they were not created to live forever."

Is Jesus alive or dead today as in right this moment?

No human is designed to live forever, including Jesus Christ.

Adam and Eve have suffered their first death and are resting in their graves awaiting resurrection.

Jesus suffered His appointed first death, rested in the tomb three days, then was resurrected as a man.

Having successfully completed His mission as a man, about 40 days later He was seen being carried into heaven:

And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

But He could not have entered Heaven as a man, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God:

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;...

Since His reason for living has been successfully completed, there is no longer any reason for the man Jesus to exist.

================================

Since Jesus could not enter Heaven as a human, somehow The Word made flesh and The Word have become One again in Heaven as one spiritual being.

Only God knows how that works.

Was Jesus denied eternal life because he died?

I do not understand that question.

The man Jesus is an heir to everlasting life under the Old Testament Covenant, because He lived a sinless life under that covenant.

Having done so, the everlasting life He is an heir to, is His to do with as He chooses.

He could have chosen to accept His inheritance by becoming a new everlasting spiritual being separate from The Word.

He chose not to accept His inheritance. Instead, He chose to offer it to those humans who believe in Him as their Savior from the wages of their sins.

A new covenant was created to reflect this change. The covenant is between God and mankind. The inheritance is everlasting life -- the everlasting life which Jesus rightfully deserved and became an heir to under the original covenant.

That was His mission. He created a path to everlasting life for humans under a New Testament which contained a condition which they could meet.