The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[myth-one.com]

I don't expect a direct answer from you because I suspect you know that if DEATH, being thrown into the lake of fire represents it CEASING TO EXIST it means the same thing (ceasing to exist) for whoever and whatever ends up in it.

No it does not.

Spiritual bodied beings cast into the lake of fire will suffer no physical damage -- as they are not physical beings.

Any human cast into the lake of fire will quickly perish.

When the last living human is born again of the Spirit or cast into the lake of fire, death and hell (the grave) will no longer exist -- because humans will no longer exist.

But the lake of fire will exist for ever and ever as the prison for the devil:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

[myth-one.com]

And as stated in the previous post, we (who are granted life) will have access to the Tree of Life, from which one must eat in order to live forever.

We only have to eat from it once.

Christ purchased mankind back (to God, to life), by giving His own life as a ransom payment to Death.

Christ could do this BECAUSE His life is worth enough to cover all the rest of life in the world.

That's not how it works.

First, eternal life is a GIFT.

That's correct, but above you called it a "ransom payment".

Second, if you are going to compare them (Adam and Christ) then you should remember that Adam - through whom DEATH entered the world - died.

No, he sleeps in his grave awaiting the resurrection from God's perspective..

[tam]

Peace to you,

And as stated in the previous post, we (who are granted life) will have access to the Tree of Life, from which one must eat in order to live forever.

We only have to eat from it once.

Regardless of how often we will or will have to eat from the Tree of Life, it is eating from the Tree of Life which allows one to live forever. (Gen 3:22)

Even angels eat the bread from heaven.

He rained down manna for them to eat; He gave them grain from heaven. 25Man ate the bread of angels; He sent them food in abundance. Psalm 78:24, 25

The TRUE manna/bread from heaven though, is Christ, who is also the Tree of LIFE.

Just as the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your fathers, who ate the manna and died, the one who eats this bread will live forever.” John 6:57, 58

“Truly, truly, I tell you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” John 6:32, 33

“I am the bread of life..." John 6:35

Christ purchased mankind back (to God, to life), by giving His own life as a ransom payment to Death.

Christ could do this BECAUSE His life is worth enough to cover all the rest of life in the world.

That's not how it works.

That IS how it worked....

First, eternal life is a GIFT.

That's correct, but above you called it a "ransom payment".

That is what a ransom is. A payment of one thing/person to release another thing/person.

"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45


** edited to add: I misunderstood your objection, sorry. Christ paid the price for us (the only One who could pay that price), but this is a free gift to us.

Second, if you are going to compare them (Adam and Christ) then you should remember that Adam - through whom DEATH entered the world - died.

No, he sleeps in his grave awaiting the resurrection from God's perspective..

Yes, but Adam is dead (awaiting the resurrection). Same as Lazarus was dead when Christ referred to him as sleeping, yes?

Regardless, that was not the point. But I will leave the point in the previous post to stand for you or anyone to ponder (or better yet, to take to Christ and ask about) for themselves.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[myth-one.com]

Christ purchased mankind back (to God, to life), by giving His own life as a ransom payment to Death.

Christ could do this BECAUSE His life is worth enough to cover all the rest of life in the world.

First, eternal life is a GIFT.

Christ paid the price for us (the only One who could pay that price), but this is a free gift to us.

<==========================>

Christ Jesus was a man:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

And it is appointed unto all men once to die:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Jesus' death on the cross was His appointed first death.

If it was appointed, it was unavoidable.

But the wages of sin is not our first death anyway. The wages of sin is the permanent second death.

How does Jesus' first death save us from our second death?

<==========================>

"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45

Give some thought as to what "give his life" could refer to in Mark 10:45.

Being a human, Jesus could not avoid dying His first death.

The wages for our sins is the second death. The second death is not appointed.

How does Jesus save us from the second death?

It involves a gift.

What possession does Jesus have after His first death, that He could gift to believers so that they would "not be hurt of the second death"?

[tam]

Peace to you,

Christ purchased mankind back (to God, to life), by giving His own life as a ransom payment to Death.

Christ could do this BECAUSE His life is worth enough to cover all the rest of life in the world.

First, eternal life is a GIFT.

Christ paid the price for us (the only One who could pay that price), but this is a free gift to us.

<==========================>

Christ Jesus was a man:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

And it is appointed unto all men once to die:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Jesus' death on the cross was His appointed first death.

If it was appointed, it was unavoidable.

But the wages of sin is not our first death anyway.

But it is.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned Romans 5:12

The wages of sin is the permanent second death.

The second death comes as a result of the Judgment.

Books are opened and the dead are judged according to their deeds. If one does not have their names written in the Lamb's book of life, then one is cast into the lake of fire (the second death).


Might also want to keep in mind that some who are in Christ, who are alive when Christ returns, will never die. They will be changed, in a twinkling, at His return.

What possession does Jesus have after His first death, that He could gift to believers so that they would "not be hurt of the second death"?

I'm not sure I understand your question. They are not going to be hurt at all by the second death because a) they have already received life (eternal life) from Christ, and b) they are not among those who are judged at the second resurrection.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[myth-one.com]

The Bible discusses two deaths, the first death and the second death. The first death is that of our physical bodies as they exist now:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The second death is discussed in the book of Revelation:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

But the wages of sin is not our first death anyway.

But it is.

How many Christians have been saved from their first appointed death?

[tam]

Peace to you!

The Bible discusses two deaths, the first death and the second death.

Yes.

The first death is that of our physical bodies as they exist now:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The second death is discussed in the book of Revelation:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

But the wages of sin is not our first death anyway.

But it is.

How many Christians have been saved from their first appointed death?

I would suggest all.

Because all who die (before Christ returns) will live (due to the first resurrection). And all who are alive (when Christ returns) will never die.

Christians go under the altar when they die (the body is in the ground/tomb/grave, but the person themselves goes under the altar to await the first resurrection. Rev 6:10).


**

The wage of sin is death (which comes to all men - at least until Christ returns), and the gift of God is eternal life through Christ.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[myth-one.com]

Peace to you!

The Bible discusses two deaths, the first death and the second death.

Yes.

The first death is that of our physical bodies as they exist now:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The second death is discussed in the book of Revelation:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

But the wages of sin is not our first death anyway.

But it is.

How many Christians have been saved from their first appointed death?

I would suggest all.

Because all who die . . .

You just said above that all Christians are saved from dying their first appointed death.

So how can you talk about all Christians who die their first appointed death after saying that none died?

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you!

The Bible discusses two deaths, the first death and the second death.

Yes.

The first death is that of our physical bodies as they exist now:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

The second death is discussed in the book of Revelation:

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

But the wages of sin is not our first death anyway.

But it is.

How many Christians have been saved from their first appointed death?

I would suggest all.

Because all who die . . .

You just said above that all Christians are saved from dying their first appointed death.

I did not say that. I did not say that all Christians are saved from dying the first death.



Peace again.

[2timothy316]

You changed the subject. This doesn't answer my question. Does the death of Jesus prove that he was not meant to live forever? Because you said of A&E, "By dying, they proved that they were not created to live forever."

Is Jesus alive or dead today as in right this moment?

No human is designed to live forever, including Jesus Christ.

Adam and Eve have suffered their first death and are resting in their graves awaiting resurrection.

Jesus suffered His appointed first death, rested in the tomb three days, then was resurrected as a man.

Having successfully completed His mission as a man, about 40 days later He was seen being carried into heaven:

And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

But He could not have entered Heaven as a man, because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God:

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;...

Since His reason for living has been successfully completed, there is no longer any reason for the man Jesus to exist.

Yet Jesus still is alive as a spirit creature right? Will this spirit live forever?