There is scant evidence in the Gospels that Jesus was sinless and perfect. By contrast, Jesus perfection is explicitly claimed by the authors of the Epistles.
For debate, how could they possibly know that Jesus was perfect, and never sinned in thought, word or deed? Were they witnesses to his mind? And to his every word and deed from childhood?
Isn't the claim that Jesus was perfect and sinless simply theological speculation?
How do they KNOW?
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Elijah John
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How do they KNOW?
Post #1 My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
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liamconnor
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Re: How do they KNOW?
Post #21[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
It's a good question! Obviously they could not know in any Kantian or Jesus sense; no one can know the mind of another.
However, if Jesus had committed any obvious breach of the Law during his ministry, everyone would have known, which, of course, would simply have made him simply a respectable Rabbi. No Rabbi of that time period (or any!) would have claimed the status of sinlessness, and no disciple of that time period (or any) would have ascribed such a status. The fact that a minor Jewish rabbi of the 1st c. in Palestine was soon ascribed this status needs to be seriously considered--with responsible historical methods...i.e., no lazy answers, like "people believe what they want to."
So, in short, a follow up question should be, "Why did 1st c. Jews--who held all the beliefs of 1st c. Judaism--suddenly ascribe to a single Jewish teacher such outlandish claims?
It's a good question! Obviously they could not know in any Kantian or Jesus sense; no one can know the mind of another.
However, if Jesus had committed any obvious breach of the Law during his ministry, everyone would have known, which, of course, would simply have made him simply a respectable Rabbi. No Rabbi of that time period (or any!) would have claimed the status of sinlessness, and no disciple of that time period (or any) would have ascribed such a status. The fact that a minor Jewish rabbi of the 1st c. in Palestine was soon ascribed this status needs to be seriously considered--with responsible historical methods...i.e., no lazy answers, like "people believe what they want to."
So, in short, a follow up question should be, "Why did 1st c. Jews--who held all the beliefs of 1st c. Judaism--suddenly ascribe to a single Jewish teacher such outlandish claims?
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: How do they KNOW?
Post #22[Replying to post 15 by marco]
WAS JESUS RUDE TO HIS MOTHER?
No, actually the gospels give evidence that Jesus consistently honoured his parents. He continued obedient to them while he was under their charge, accepted to be trained in carpentry by his adopted father, stayed at home until he was thirty, helping his presumably widowed mother with the younger children and made arrangements for the spiritual and physical care before his death.
Readers do well not to superimpose standards of 21st century western vernacular on 1st century Palestinian norms. His address to her as "woman" (rather than "mother") in John 2:4 was not "rude", neither was his subsequent comment. As an adult male no longer under his mother's charge, Jesus had no obligation to do what his mother told him and he committed no wrong in how he communicated this fact.
JW
FURTHER READING
RELATED POSTS
WAS JESUS RUDE TO HIS MOTHER?
No, actually the gospels give evidence that Jesus consistently honoured his parents. He continued obedient to them while he was under their charge, accepted to be trained in carpentry by his adopted father, stayed at home until he was thirty, helping his presumably widowed mother with the younger children and made arrangements for the spiritual and physical care before his death.
Readers do well not to superimpose standards of 21st century western vernacular on 1st century Palestinian norms. His address to her as "woman" (rather than "mother") in John 2:4 was not "rude", neither was his subsequent comment. As an adult male no longer under his mother's charge, Jesus had no obligation to do what his mother told him and he committed no wrong in how he communicated this fact.
Likewise the expression what have I to do with you? was apparently a common Jewish idiom that does not to show disdain or arrogance, but was simply a way to refuse involvement in some proposed or suggested action or to express a difference in viewpoint or opinionUsed in addressing a woman, it is a term not of reproof or severity, but of endearment or respect.â - Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words
JW
FURTHER READING
Was Jesus being disrespectful or unkind at John 2:4?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2006887#h=2
How Rude!? Eric Lyons, M.Min.
http://apologeticspress.org/apcontent.a ... rticle=770
RELATED POSTS
Did Jesus sin when he threw the money-changers out of the temple?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 999#976999
Was Jesus being overly theatrical by crying out when being executed?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 200#933200
Scriptures of Jesus so-called "sinfulness" debunked [INDEX]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 004#977004
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Tcg
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Re: How do they KNOW?
Post #23liamconnor wrote:
However, if Jesus had committed any obvious breach of the Law during his ministry, everyone would have known,
How would they have known? We have modern examples of the church hiding the sins of their clergy. There is no reason to assume the same collusion couldn't have happened to protect Jesus.
No one would have known except his inner circle who kept it hidden.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Tcg
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Re: How do they KNOW?
Post #24Of course he was. This, however, wasn't an anomaly in the Bible tales. Women where consider of less value than men. This clearly applied to family members as well as other lesser valued women.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
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Elijah John
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Re: How do they KNOW?
Post #25[Replying to post 17 by tam]
Oh, I get it, how DARE we question the perfection of your Lord, Tammy.
Why do we question? Because the claim is absurd and not supported by the evidence. Not supported by anything except for the opinions of Paul, and the unknown writers of Hebrews and "Peter". Yet so many accept the doctrine without question. On THIS site, we question.
They had no way of knowing whether Jesus was sinless and perfect or not. They were not witnesses to every moment of his life, nor were they witnesses to his thoughts. The NT writers were not mind-readers..
And are you claiming that being rude NOT against the Golden Rule? How do you like it when people are rude to you Tammy? 'Nuff said. Or does Jesus get a pass because he is "Christ" or because he is "God" and does not have to abide by his own rules.
Also, Jesus advised a would-be follower who wanted to bury his father, "let the dead bury their own dead". A cheap shot that it seems Jesus could not resist. And a violation of the commandment to honor one's parents if he had obeyed Jesus instead of burying his dad. Here Jesus seems to be encouraging someone to break a major commandment. Jesus seems to have had a lot of trouble with the commandment to honor one's parents.
Before we hold anyone up as being perfect, or a human as being a GOD for that matter, shouldn't they stand up to scrutiny?
But it is extremely doubtful that Jesus ever claimed either Divinity, or sinless perfection for that matter.
Far more likely that people have mythologized Jesus, and made an idol out of him. Very likely that Jesus-worshipers strayed far from the simple lesson he tried to teach, namely love of God and neighbor. That he didn't always live up to his own preaching does not invalidate his message. Jesus was, after all, only human.
And the teaching has intrinsic merit.
For someone to claim sinless perfection on Jesus behalf is an extraordinary claim. Where is the extraordinary proof? At best the New Testament is contradictory on the matter.
Oh, I get it, how DARE we question the perfection of your Lord, Tammy.
Why do we question? Because the claim is absurd and not supported by the evidence. Not supported by anything except for the opinions of Paul, and the unknown writers of Hebrews and "Peter". Yet so many accept the doctrine without question. On THIS site, we question.
They had no way of knowing whether Jesus was sinless and perfect or not. They were not witnesses to every moment of his life, nor were they witnesses to his thoughts. The NT writers were not mind-readers..
And are you claiming that being rude NOT against the Golden Rule? How do you like it when people are rude to you Tammy? 'Nuff said. Or does Jesus get a pass because he is "Christ" or because he is "God" and does not have to abide by his own rules.
Also, Jesus advised a would-be follower who wanted to bury his father, "let the dead bury their own dead". A cheap shot that it seems Jesus could not resist. And a violation of the commandment to honor one's parents if he had obeyed Jesus instead of burying his dad. Here Jesus seems to be encouraging someone to break a major commandment. Jesus seems to have had a lot of trouble with the commandment to honor one's parents.
Before we hold anyone up as being perfect, or a human as being a GOD for that matter, shouldn't they stand up to scrutiny?
But it is extremely doubtful that Jesus ever claimed either Divinity, or sinless perfection for that matter.
Far more likely that people have mythologized Jesus, and made an idol out of him. Very likely that Jesus-worshipers strayed far from the simple lesson he tried to teach, namely love of God and neighbor. That he didn't always live up to his own preaching does not invalidate his message. Jesus was, after all, only human.
And the teaching has intrinsic merit.For someone to claim sinless perfection on Jesus behalf is an extraordinary claim. Where is the extraordinary proof? At best the New Testament is contradictory on the matter.
Last edited by Elijah John on Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
JehovahsWitness
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Re: How do they KNOW?
Post #26INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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tam
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Re: How do they KNOW?
Post #27Peace again to you,
You don't appear to get it, EJ.Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 17 by tam]
Oh, I get it, how DARE we question the perfection of your Lord, Tammy.
I attempted to reason with you in post 6 (you did not respond); and I also questioned and attempted to discuss some of your other claims in post 14 (which you described as me 'making excuses' for "Jesus".)
Why do we question?
I did not ask you (or anyone) this question. I asked why you are seeking to find fault with Him.
Because the claim is absurd and not supported by the evidence. Not supported by anything except for the opinions of Paul, and the unknown writers of Hebrews and "Peter". Yet so many accept the doctrine without question. On THIS site, we question.
What evidence are you referring to? Yours (and some others') opinions? If the suggested "opinion" of Paul and "Peter" and the author of the letter to the Hebrews is not enough, then how is your opinion enough?
Since you did not respond to my explanations and questions from post 17, I can only refer you back to it.And being rude NOT against the Golden Rule? How do you like it when people are rude to you Tammy? 'Nuff said.
Also, Jesus advised a would-be follower who wanted to bury his father, "let the dead bury their own dead". A cheap shot that it seems Jesus could not resist.
And this is why I asked why you are trying to find fault with Christ. Because what is your evidence that this was a cheap shot? Who says "Jesus" could not resist giving a cheap shot? Are you in his head? Do you know what he was thinking? Have you asked Him? Or are you just making it up that He could not resist a cheap shot at someone?
For what purpose would He do this? And where is your evidence that this is what He was doing, EJ?
Why not seek His righteousness instead? In doing so, you might see that He was (as always) simply speaking truthfully; including about what was required to follow Him and to do the work that needed doing. He and His Father and the Kingdom - these must come first. He always let people know the cost and what was required (and He also had a limited time in which to complete His ministry while in the flesh).
Seek first the Kingdom and His righteousness and all other things will be given as well. (matt 6:33)
The evidence definitely does not support this opinion.That he didn't always live up to his own preaching does not invalidate his message. Jesus was, after all, only human.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Elijah John
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Re: How do they KNOW?
Post #28We both agree that Jesus is not God.JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 25 by Elijah John]
Is your God is perfect? How would you know if He was?
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
Elijah John
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Re: How do they KNOW?
Post #29[Replying to post 27 by tam]
Because my opinion is based on reason and Gospel evidence. Not making it up Tammy, there is Gospel evidence that Jesus was not perfect. Several of us have already provided that NT evidence. Again, how could anyone possibly know that Jesus was perfect.? The default assumption that we must make is that Jesus being human, was not perfect. The extraordinary claim is that he was. Again, where's the extraordinary proof?
Where did Jesus himself ever claim to be perfect?
Only others have, on his behalf. Now we are at full circle. How could anyone possibly know? And since no one can, we must assume that he was not as our starting point, our base assumption.
The only reason it seems that Paul and others claim Jesus was perfect is because Jesus supposed perfection is necessary for Paul's blood atonement theology. Paul's disciples will do anything to protect those flawed doctrines. Including resorting to circular reasoning: "Jesus is perfect because blood sacrifice atonement depends on it. The blood sacrifice atonement works because Jesus is perfect."
Because my opinion is based on reason and Gospel evidence. Not making it up Tammy, there is Gospel evidence that Jesus was not perfect. Several of us have already provided that NT evidence. Again, how could anyone possibly know that Jesus was perfect.? The default assumption that we must make is that Jesus being human, was not perfect. The extraordinary claim is that he was. Again, where's the extraordinary proof?
Where did Jesus himself ever claim to be perfect?
Only others have, on his behalf. Now we are at full circle. How could anyone possibly know? And since no one can, we must assume that he was not as our starting point, our base assumption.
The only reason it seems that Paul and others claim Jesus was perfect is because Jesus supposed perfection is necessary for Paul's blood atonement theology. Paul's disciples will do anything to protect those flawed doctrines. Including resorting to circular reasoning: "Jesus is perfect because blood sacrifice atonement depends on it. The blood sacrifice atonement works because Jesus is perfect."
Last edited by Elijah John on Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
Eloi
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Re: How do they KNOW?
Post #30[Replying to Elijah John]
It is simple:
If Jesus Christ had committed any sin, the Jews would have easily condemned him and would not have had to make excuses.
"Sin" from the biblical point of view is not what it seems from our point of view, but what constitutes a violation of the law of God, which at that time was the Mosaic law. Jesus never violated a single mandate of the law, therefore he was without sin.
John 8:46 Who of YOU convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it YOU do not believe me? 47 He that is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why YOU do not listen, because YOU are not from God.�
It is simple:
If Jesus Christ had committed any sin, the Jews would have easily condemned him and would not have had to make excuses.
"Sin" from the biblical point of view is not what it seems from our point of view, but what constitutes a violation of the law of God, which at that time was the Mosaic law. Jesus never violated a single mandate of the law, therefore he was without sin.
John 8:46 Who of YOU convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why is it YOU do not believe me? 47 He that is from God listens to the sayings of God. This is why YOU do not listen, because YOU are not from God.�
