God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[PinSeeker]

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[PinSeeker]

another deleted duplicate post

[myth-one.com]

Can both of the following statements be true?

1) God created a system whereby the unsaved will be eternally tormented.

2) God is Love.

Yes.

That's totally illogical.

[PinSeeker]

Can both of the following statements be true?

1) God created a system whereby the unsaved will be eternally tormented.

2) God is Love.

Yes.

That's totally illogical.

I understand that you see it that way. I guess that's because you read into that that God physically (or mentally, or emotionally, or any other way) torments the unsaved. But that's not the case. God does not torment, either in this life or in eternity.

Hey, here you go:

I'm actually -- in some very small way -- tormented by the fact that you can't (or won't) grasp these things, and that you judge what I say... and even me personally... as "illogical." Does that mean, then, that you are tormenting me? No. No, it doesn't. You are not tormenting me.

Conversely, you are obviously tormented -- again, in some small sense, at least -- at my refutations of your understandings on the subject at hand. This is quite obvious because of the tone of your posts and your inability to just let it go. Am I tormenting you? Again, no. No, I am not. I am not tormenting you.

Does that help you to begin to understand? Probably not...

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[myth-one.com]

Can both of the following statements be true?

1) God created a system whereby the unsaved will be eternally tormented.

2) God is Love.

Yes.

That's totally illogical.

God does not torment, either in this life or in eternity.

But you claimed it is true that God created the system of eternally tormenting nonbelievers.

Even if He has subordinates which administer the torment, isn't the everlasting torment which you ascribe to nonbelievers ultimately linked back to your God?

Didn't He create everything, even describing everything He created as being very good?

Can you explain how everlasting conscious torment is very good?

Do you have any example?

One?

[Charles]

It has been said many times on these threads that God did not create defective people. The defectiveness came from our imperfect genes being passed on from generation to generation AFTER the genes became defective AFTER the Fall. There are imperfect things going on because Adam chose to rebel and thus brought imperfection and suffering to all of his progeny. He was PERFECT until then.

This claims the doctrine of inherited sin does not mean GOD creates defective people and then goes on to tell us exactly HOW HE creates defective people by making them humans in Adam's defective genetic line...all with no cognitive dissonance whatsoever. Such is the power of doublethink.

[Charles]

Because it (the doctrine of eternal torture) conflicts with the truth that God is love; tammy

Please remember that there is a set of circumstances that are all acceptable within the greater Christian system somewhere in which HIS love and the absolute necessity of eternal damnation are reconciled...

IF we were lovingly created as eternally self and other aware spirits and
IF we were all created with a free will and
IF there is an unforgivable sin, a sin that puts the person outside of all grace and
IF some of HIS creation chose to sin the unforgivable sin and
IF it is true that a little leaven / sin leavens / corrupts the whole lump / person / community, then
IF the only way to protect HIS Church and heavenly Family from these eternally evil people was to banish them forever from HIS heavenly reality,
THEN hell is an absolute necessity to keep the eternally evil ones from corrupting HIS heaven and those whom HE loves and has married.

Not ever premise is accepted by everyone of course but all of them are acceptable to one system of theology or another as a proper interpretation of scripture.

[myth-one.com]

Because it (the doctrine of eternal torture) conflicts with the truth that God is love; tammy

Please remember that there is a set of circumstances that are all acceptable within the greater Christian system somewhere in which HIS love and the absolute necessity of eternal damnation are reconciled...

IF we were lovingly created as eternally self and other aware spirits and
IF we were all created with a free will and
IF there is an unforgivable sin, a sin that puts the person outside of all grace and
IF some of HIS creation chose to sin the unforgivable sin and
IF it is true that a little leaven / sin leavens / corrupts the whole lump / person / community, then
IF the only way to protect HIS Church and heavenly Family from these eternally evil people was to banish them forever from HIS heavenly reality,
THEN hell is an absolute necessity to keep the eternally evil ones from corrupting HIS heaven and those whom HE loves and has married.

Not ever premise is accepted by everyone of course but all of them are acceptable to one system of theology or another as a proper interpretation of scripture.

Welcome Charles,

"IF we were lovingly created as eternally self and other aware spirits . . ."

But we were not created as "eternally self and other aware spirits."

Can you provide scripture to support that belief?

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (Genesis 3:4)

Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever.

Mainstream Christian theologians have incorporated the lie into their theologies for nearly two thousand years!

People who believe in man's immortality, can never understand the scriptures.

In fact, that is the mechanism by which God seals the scriptures from man's understanding.

[Charles]

If Adam was "perfect" as you claim, then why would he chose to rebel against God which would require that he was not perfect.

You see, you're apologies don't help. If Adam was broken only his manufacture can be held responsible for that.

Being able to rebel against GOD does indeed mean Adam was not perfect but it doesn't mean that he was broken, only that he was immature.

If we were created with a free will with the ability to chose to become morally righteous people or to become morally evil people by our free will, how are we broken? We may not yet be complete because we haven't yet made the choice of who we wanted to be but we are not broken.

Broken implies unfit or unable to fulfill HIS purpose for our creation so HE would never create us broken. Being able to choose to become morally righteous (in accord with HIM and HIS plans) or evil (rebellious to HIM or HIS plans) by our own faith (an unproven hope and desire) is a perfect way to create a moral people who are not robots doing good by HIS will, not their own will.

Being able to rebel is an absolute necessity for our free will and the ability to choose to be righteous and to truly love and to enter a true marriage,

as well as to make those who reject HIM truly guilty for their rebellion and for the judgement against their sins to be just.

Only the choice to sin against GOD broke anyone, corrupting them from HIS purpose, making them unfit to fulfill HIS purpose for their creation.

[PinSeeker]

Excellent posts, Charles. Thank you. And welcome.