God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[Checkpoint]

Because it (the doctrine of eternal torture) conflicts th the truth that God is love; tammy

Please remember that there is a set of circumstances that are all acceptable within the greater Christian system somewhere in which HIS love and the absolute necessity of eternal damnation are reconciled...

IF we were lovingly created as eternally self and other aware spirits and
IF we were all created with a free will and
IF there is an unforgivable sin, a sin that puts the person outside of all grace and
IF some of HIS creation chose to sin the unforgivable sin and
IF it is true that a little leaven / sin leavens / corrupts the whole lump / person / community, then
IF the only way to protect HIS Church and heavenly Family from these eternally evil people was to banish them forever from HIS heavenly reality,
THEN hell is an absolute necessity to keep the eternally evil ones from corrupting HIS heaven and those whom HE loves and has married.

Not ever premise is accepted by everyone of course but all of them are acceptable to one system of theology or another as a proper interpretation of scripture.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

it gives us a helpful window to view the basis on which so many Christians are assuming eternal damnation and God as love can be reconciled.

However, a proper interpretation of scripture it is not.

The first IF is often assumed to be scriptural, but is far from it.

We were not created as eternal spirits but as mortal souls. Genesis 2:7; 3:19, 22-24.

God is love, and that is why He made man mortal.

Eternal damnation does not change that, it confirms it. Just as those saved will live again, so will those damned die again.

[PinSeeker]

But you claimed it is true that God created the system of eternally tormenting nonbelievers.

No, I claimed -- because it is biblically true -- that God "created a system" whereby upon final Judgment He relegates those who never repent of their sin and believe in Christ and His sacrifice on our behalf (thereby not having His righteousness imputed to them) -- continue in rebellion against Him -- to a place outside of and away from His redeemed creation.

Even if He has subordinates which administer the torment...

Which is ridiculous; He doesn't...

...isn't the everlasting torment which you ascribe to nonbelievers ultimately linked back to your God?

It would be if what you just said was true, yes. But it's not.

Didn't He create everything, even describing everything He created as being very good?

Absolutely He did. And in this state of unbelievers in eternal judgment -- as well as the state of believers finally being fully redeemed of past sin and sin-free from the time of Jesus's return onward -- ALL of His creation is again very good, because:

• 1. God's justice will have been finally satisfied and upheld
  
  2. sin and death will have finally been conquered in full by Christ Jesus.

Can you explain how everlasting conscious torment is very good? Do you have any example? One?

No need; that's another non sequitur. It's fine to say conscious torment is not good, and it's not, either in our eyes or God's, I'm sure. But as you yourself keep saying -- and I agree, although you understand it in an incomplete way -- the wages of sin is death. Those wages are absolutely necessary without exception in satisfying God's justice. And that's what it takes to make that part/half of God's creation finally very good again once and for all.

Again, grace and peace to you.

[tam]

Peace to you!

Because it (the doctrine of eternal torture) conflicts with the truth that God is love; tammy

Please remember that there is a set of circumstances that are all acceptable within the greater Christian system somewhere in which HIS love and the absolute necessity of eternal damnation are reconciled...

IF we were lovingly created as eternally self and other aware spirits and
IF we were all created with a free will and
IF there is an unforgivable sin, a sin that puts the person outside of all grace and
IF some of HIS creation chose to sin the unforgivable sin and
IF it is true that a little leaven / sin leavens / corrupts the whole lump / person / community, then
IF the only way to protect HIS Church and heavenly Family from these eternally evil people was to banish them forever from HIS heavenly reality,
THEN hell is an absolute necessity to keep the eternally evil ones from corrupting HIS heaven and those whom HE loves and has married.

Not ever premise is accepted by everyone of course but all of them are acceptable to one system of theology or another as a proper interpretation of scripture.

IF God created all beings with the inability to die (cease to exist/be destroyed) - and if He knew those beings would be forever evil and cause harm to those whom He loves - then what you say above makes some sense.

But unless you are also suggesting that God did not know some beings would choose to become eternally evil, then why would He have created them to be eternal to begin with? Knowing that at least some of those beings would require eternal punishment (causing eternal torment)?

Why would He not have created a failsafe (for lack of a better word) in His plan, out of His wisdom? To ensure that those who proved to be 'eternally evil' would not end up existing in never-ending torment for all eternity? A million trillion years of torment - and not one moment sooner to an end to that torment?





Peace again to you!

[PinSeeker]

...a proper interpretation of scripture it is not.

LOL! Have fun, Charles! I exhort thee to resist the torment! Not that anybody is really tormenting you, but... you know what I mean... I think...

We were not created as eternal spirits but as mortal souls. Genesis 2:7; 3:19, 22-24.

With regard to this world, this is very true. But with regard to being created in God's image, we are absolutely created with an eternal spirit.

God is love, and that is why He made man mortal.

No, among other reasons, God is love, and that is why He created man with an eternal spirit and gave him mortal life:

• * That we have an eternal spirit is affirmed in Genesis 1:26-27 and if discounted in any way, even if unintentionally, is a violence upon God's Word;
  
  * Mortal life is His covenant with Adam and renewed with Noah, added to with Abraham, Moses, and David, and finally shown fully and perfectly in Christ Jesus, to be consummated at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.

As David says in Psalm 139:14, we are indeed fearfully and wonderfully made.

Eternal damnation does not change that, it confirms it. Just as those saved will live again, so will those damned die again.

This I totally agree with. But the damned will not cease to exist. God has decreed it so from and to all eternity.

Grace and peace to all.

[myth-one.com]

It's fine to say conscious torment is not good, and it's not, either in our eyes or God's, I'm sure.

Agreed.

But as you yourself keep saying -- and I agree, although you understand it in an incomplete way -- the wages of sin is death.

Wow! We agree again.

The wages of sin is death!

No take backs!

Those wages are absolutely necessary without exception in satisfying God's justice. And that's what it takes to make that part/half of God's creation finally very good again once and for all.

Absolutely correct.

The wages of sin is death and nonbelievers perish. And death is an everlasting punishment.

They will never live again.

They do not suffer any everlasting torment.

Grace and peace to you.

You no longer need to worry about the unsaved!

You know the truth, and the truth has set you free!

Good for you!

Now spread that Good News!

[PinSeeker]

I was so, so, happy for you until up to this point:

They do not suffer any everlasting torment.

According to God, they absolutely do. His judgment and condemnation is a torment to them, and it is everlasting. It is their worm that will not die.

You no longer need to worry about the unsaved!

I never did worry about God's will being done. But for the unsaved personally, I do have a sense of urgency... you know, to tell them about Jesus. Surely you are not saying there's no need for evangelism. You know, I mean, faith comes by hearing, and how will they hear if no one tells them?

Now spread that Good News

Oh, I never miss a chance to do that. But it seems that you think that's no longer necessary. If so, you are sadly mistaken (again).

Grace and peace to you.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 194 by myth-one.com]

No dead man is "obviously conscious."

The rich man is conscious because he is no longer "dead."

He had previously died his appointed first physical death, been resurrected as a human, faced judgment, and is or will soon be cast into the lake of fire to suffer his "second" and everlasting second death.

You say the rich man "is no longer dead", having "been resurrected as a human".

Where is that in this Luke 16 passage?

Both the rich man and Abraham have died long ago.

Today, 3/27/2020, they are resting in their graves, having died their appointed "first" deaths.

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)

But all mankind will be resurrected or awakened from this first death:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

All of mankind are like the first man Adam in that all die. And every human who ever died, will be resurrected or made alive again.

Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected or made alive.

The group that will be resurrected next are all dead Christians, they that are Christ's, which will be resurrected at the Second Coming, or at His coming.

Believers (those living and those resting in their graves) will be born again as spiritual bodied beings at the Second Coming.

All dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as mortal humans again a thousand years after the Second Coming:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:4)

Those resurrected after the thousand years then face judgment and possibly their "second death."

Since they are capable of dying their second death, they had to be resurrected as mortal humans. It is their second period of life as a human.

=================================================

The Lazarus & rich man parable "occurs" at this point where the rich man is in the process of becoming nonexistent.

Does that answer your question?

Not at all!

Please answer the specific question asked:

"You say the rich man "is no longer dead", having "been resurrected as a human".

Where is that in this Luke 16 passage?"

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 194 by myth-one.com]

No dead man is "obviously conscious."

The rich man is conscious because he is no longer "dead."

He had previously died his appointed first physical death, been resurrected as a human, faced judgment, and is or will soon be cast into the lake of fire to suffer his "second" and everlasting second death.

You say the rich man "is no longer dead", having "been resurrected as a human".

Where is that in this Luke 16 passage?

Both the rich man and Abraham have died long ago.

Today, 3/27/2020, they are resting in their graves, having died their appointed "first" deaths.

And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)

But all mankind will be resurrected or awakened from this first death:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

All of mankind are like the first man Adam in that all die. And every human who ever died, will be resurrected or made alive again.

Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected or made alive.

The group that will be resurrected next are all dead Christians, they that are Christ's, which will be resurrected at the Second Coming, or at His coming.

Believers (those living and those resting in their graves) will be born again as spiritual bodied beings at the Second Coming.

All dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as mortal humans again a thousand years after the Second Coming:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:4)

Those resurrected after the thousand years then face judgment and possibly their "second death."

Since they are capable of dying their second death, they had to be resurrected as mortal humans. It is their second period of life as a human.

=================================================

The Lazarus & rich man parable "occurs" at this point where the rich man is in the process of becoming nonexistent.

Does that answer your question?

Not at all!

Please answer the specific question asked:

"You say the rich man "is no longer dead", having "been resurrected as a human".

Where is that in this Luke 16 passage?"

It's in the scriptures.

Why does it have to be in the Luke 16 passage?

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Between verses 22 and 24, the Second Coming occurred, believers were resurrected to everlasting spiritual life, a thousand years later the rich man was resurrected as a human, and now his sentence is being carried out.

He is being executed.

[PinSeeker]

It's in the scriptures.

No it's not... Anywhere else, but not in Luke 16, either. As I said before, in verses 27 and 28, we see that he has five brothers who have not yet passed from the physical world. The judgement cannot have happened yet and must be still in the future, because the first death has to have happened for everyone for the second coming to occur and the subsequent resurrection and subsequent Judgment to occur.

Between verses 22 and 24, the Second Coming occurred, believers were resurrected to everlasting spiritual life, a thousand years later the rich man was resurrected as a human, and now his sentence is being carried out. He is being executed.

Nope. This parable is set in the midst of the millennium, thus it's relevance to the original hearers... and to us... This is the very reason Jesus offers the parable, which is a simple story used to illustrate a very important lesson. And the lesson is, 1.) repent and believe now, and 2.) warn others of the consequences of failing to do so... while there's still an opportunity to both.

Grace and peace to you.

[onewithhim]

People who have no evidence of a flaming hell always drag out Luke 16. It gets wearisome. The following is the explanation of Luke 16.

What did Jesus mean when he said in one of his parables: "The beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell [Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom"? (Luke 16:19-31, KJV) Since "Hades" refers to mankind's GRAVE, and not to a place of torture, it is plain that Jesus was here telling a story...with a moral to it. Consider this:

1) Is hell literally within speaking distance of heaven so that a real conversation could be carried on?

2) If the rich man were in a literal burning lake, or being roasted on a spit over the flames, how could Abraham send Lazarus to cool his tongue with just a drop of water on the tip of his finger?

What, then, was Jesus illustrating?

**The rich man stood for the religious leaders who were self-important, self-righteous, hypocritical, and rejected Jesus---even ultimately killing him. Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted God's Son. The death of the rich man and of Lazarus represented a change in their condition. This change took place when Jesus fed the neglected Lazarus-like people spiritually, so that they came into the favor of the greater Abraham, Jehovah God Almighty. At the same time, the false religious leaders "died" with respect to having God's favor. They were cast off, and they suffered torments when Christ's followers exposed their evil works (Acts 7:51-57). So, this parable does not teach that some dead people are tortured in a literal fiery hell.


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