God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[Checkpoint]

...a proper interpretation of scripture it is not.

LOL! Have fun, Charles! I exhort thee to resist the torment! Not that anybody is really tormenting you, but... you know what I mean... I think...

We were not created as eternal spirits but as mortal souls. Genesis 2:7; 3:19, 22-24.

With regard to this world, this is very true. But with regard to being created in God's image, we are absolutely created with an eternal spirit.

God is love, and that is why He made man mortal.

No, among other reasons, God is love, and that is why He created man with an eternal spirit and gave him mortal life:

• * That we have an eternal spirit is affirmed in Genesis 1:26-27 and if discounted in any way, even if unintentionally, is a violence upon God's Word;
  
  * Mortal life is His covenant with Adam and renewed with Noah, added to with Abraham, Moses, and David, and finally shown fully and perfectly in Christ Jesus, to be consummated at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.

As David says in Psalm 139:14, we are indeed fearfully and wonderfully made.

Bold statements, without any evidence. Just opinion formed from assumption. I refer especially to this one:

" That we have an eternal spirit is affirmed in Genesis 1:26-27 and if discounted in any way, even if unintentionally, is a violence upon God's Word"

That about takes the cake...well done, Pinseeker, you have outdone yourself!

Eternal damnation does not change that, it confirms it. Just as those saved will live again, so will those damned die again.

This I totally agree with. But the damned will not cease to exist. God has decreed it so from and to all eternity.[/quote]

That is not God's decree, it is yours, that "the damned will not cease to exist".

Grace and peace to all.

Yes, grace and peace to all.

[PinSeeker]

Bold statements, without any evidence. Just opinion formed from assumption.

Which is -- all of it -- your opinion. And welcome to it you are.

I refer especially to this one:

"That we have an eternal spirit is affirmed in Genesis 1:26-27 and if discounted in any way, even if unintentionally, is a violence upon God's Word"

That about takes the cake...well done, Pinseeker, you have outdone yourself!

Outdone myself? No. It is what it is. I know it's not intentional. but that's not necessary. It is what it is.

Eternal damnation does not change that, it confirms it. Just as those saved will live again, so will those damned die again.

This I totally agree with. But the damned will not cease to exist. God has decreed it so from and to all eternity.

That is not God's decree, it is yours, that "the damned will not cease to exist"..

Not so. The following is straight from the Westminster Confession of Faith (picking up after points 1 and 2 under of Chapter 3, which is titled "Of God's Eternal Decree" (Sections 1, 2, 4, 5, and 8 left out here for time's sake):

• 3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.
  
  6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
  
  7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy, as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.

Here's the full document, with Scripture proofs throughout: https://opc.org/documents/CFLayout.pdf

Now, I'm not a member of an OPC (Orthodox Presbyterian) church, but I fully subscribe to this confession. And of the Decree itself, it's neither mine nor any of its subscribers, past present or future, regardless of denominational preference or lack thereof. It's God's eternal decree.

Once again, grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

[onewithhim]

People who have no evidence of a flaming hell always drag out Luke 16. It gets wearisome. The following is the explanation of Luke 16.

What did Jesus mean when he said in one of his parables: "The beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell [Hades] he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom"? (Luke 16:19-31, KJV) Since "Hades" refers to mankind's GRAVE, and not to a place of torture, it is plain that Jesus was here telling a story...with a moral to it. Consider this:

1) Is hell literally within speaking distance of heaven so that a real conversation could be carried on?

2) If the rich man were in a literal burning lake, or being roasted on a spit over the flames, how could Abraham send Lazarus to cool his tongue with just a drop of water on the tip of his finger?

What, then, was Jesus illustrating?

**The rich man stood for the religious leaders who were self-important, self-righteous, hypocritical, and rejected Jesus---even ultimately killing him. Lazarus pictured the common people who accepted God's Son. The death of the rich man and of Lazarus represented a change in their condition. This change took place when Jesus fed the neglected Lazarus-like people spiritually, so that they came into the favor of the greater Abraham, Jehovah God Almighty. At the same time, the false religious leaders "died" with respect to having God's favor. They were cast off, and they suffered torments when Christ's followers exposed their evil works (Acts 7:51-57). So, this parable does not teach that some dead people are tortured in a literal fiery hell.


.

[myth-one.com]

• 3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.
  
  6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power, through faith, unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.

Those elected by God to receive everlasting life, are those whose names are written in the Book of Life.

Under the New Testament Covenant, the only way to have one's name written in the Book of Life is to accept Jesus as one's Savior:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So the elect was predestined to be whosoever believeth in Jesus.

Others are predestined to everlasting death!

The elect are not determined at birth.

Any human ever born can join the elect -- Whosoever believeth!

==================================================

It is also reassuring to see that the Westminster Confession of Faith acknowledges that "others are foreordained to everlasting death!

I see no indication to support your belief that nonbelievers will exist in conscious torment for eternity.

[Checkpoint]

Bold statements, without any evidence. Just opinion formed from assumption.

Which is -- all of it -- your opinion. And welcome to it you are.

I refer especially to this one:

"That we have an eternal spirit is affirmed in Genesis 1:26-27 and if discounted in any way, even if unintentionally, is a violence upon God's Word"

That about takes the cake...well done, Pinseeker, you have outdone yourself!

Outdone myself? No. It is what it is. I know it's not intentional. but that's not necessary. It is what it is.

Eternal damnation does not change that, it confirms it. Just as those saved will live again, so will those damned die again.

This I totally agree with. But the damned will not cease to exist. God has decreed it so from and to all eternity.

That is not God's decree, it is yours, that "the damned will not cease to exist"..

Not so. The following is straight from the Westminster Confession of Faith (picking up after points 1 and 2 under of Chapter 3, which is titled "Of God's Eternal Decree" (Sections 1, 2, 4, 5, and 8 left out here for time's sake):

Now, I'm not a member of an OPC (Orthodox Presbyterian) church, but I fully subscribe to this confession. And of the Decree itself, it's neither mine nor any of its subscribers, past present or future, regardless of denominational preference or lack thereof. It's God's eternal decree.

Thanks Pinseeker, for a further look at what man pontificates and then announces what they think is implied in this or that passage or group of Scripture on one topic or another.

Such as:

"And of the Decree itself, it's neither mine nor any of its subscribers, It's God's eternal decree."

Sorry Pinseker, but I am not in the least impressed, let alone challenged.

So, once again, thanks, but no thanks.

Once again, grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

Thank you. And to you too, Pinseeker.

[brianbbs67]

Not one of us should worry, for we only have to die once. But, then i read of second death. It we be what it will be and there is no thing we can do to change it no matter what our belief. My God will see me thru it and I hope all of yours will too.

[Checkpoint]

Not one of us should worry, for we only have to die once. But, then i read of second death. It we be what it will be and there is no thing we can do to change it no matter what our belief. My God will see me thru it and I hope all of yours will too.

Amen my brother.

We are in this together through thick and thin and have so many precious promises.
Like these:

Revelation 2:

7 To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God.

11 The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the Second Death.

[Charles]

But unless you are also suggesting that God did not know some beings would choose to become eternally evil, then why would He have created them to be eternal to begin with? Knowing that at least some of those beings would require eternal punishment (causing eternal torment)?

Whether or not we are created eternal, I reject the doctrine that GOD knew before anyone was created who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY as the most horrendous blasphemy against HIS good name as loving, righteous and justice because

1. it contradicts the scriptures that claim HE takes no pleasure in their death but all HE does IS for HIS pleasure and

2. it contradicts HIS claim HE wants everyone to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4...who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. so all HE had to do to ensure there was no need for hell was to not create those whom HE saw would end there.

3. The fact HE did create them when HE has no need for evil nor evil people who cannot fulfil HIS purpose for their creation ie the heavenly marriage, and HIS whole nature and being is concentrated upon cleansing HIS reality from evil proves HE did NOT know what they would choose, righteousness or evil, or HE would not have created them! Their very existence is proof HE did not know their fate before HE created them.

[Charles]

Since "Hades" refers to mankind's GRAVE, and not to a place of torture...

This use of eisegesis to force a doctrine by using a non-accredited definition of hades/sheol does not sway me.

I prefer the scholarship of Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the Grave in which W. Edward Bedore, Th.D. at https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/hell ... the-grave/ writes about

A comparison of how Sheol and queber are used reveals eight points of contrast that tell us that they are not the same thing.

[Charles]

Those elected by God to receive everlasting life, are those whose names are written in the Book of Life.

Under the New Testament Covenant, the only way to have one's name written in the Book of Life is to accept Jesus as one's Savior:

Yet some people are blotted out of the book of life, people you claim have made a saving acceptance of Christ...

Revelation 21:27...and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 3:5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Exodus 32:31-33 Then Moses returned to the LORD, and said, "Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves. "But now, if You will, forgive their sin--and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!" The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

This leads me to consider that the BOOK of LIFE refers to mankind, our LIFE here on earth where we are sown, ie planted, for the redemption of the sinful elect called the good seed.