Did Christ have free will?

[brianbbs67]

Did Jesus/Yeshua/whateverhisname have free will. We see him quote" the son can only do as the father has instructed". Or was he so devoted to the father it never was an issue?

So, was he locked into the doctrine? Or could he act of his will? I can see examples of both. What do you all see?

[ttruscott]

Ttruscott, who said anything about force???

Hey, you used all powerful first as if HIS being all powerful negated His free will.

The question is whether Jesus had free will such that he could say no to God.( there would be consequences of course, but was Jesus able to disobey?)

Does the strength of commitment to the welfare of another so that it is impossible for you to hurt them even if you were logically capable of doing that? 1+1 is 2 not 3. No He could not disobey but not because He had no free will but because He would not by His own free will commitment to the love they share.

[ttruscott]

God can make all the commands and pronouncements he likes, but if the people don't like it, they will ignore him, and disobey. He is more of a figurehead, right?

The only way that anyone can sin is by a free will decision to go against GOD. GOD allows everyone the ability to sin, and lets those who think that makes HIM a figure head live with HIS sinful elect until they repent and then everyone sees the Judge on His throne.

[2timothy316]

Did Jesus/Yeshua/whateverhisname have free will. We see him quote" the son can only do as the father has instructed". Or was he so devoted to the father it never was an issue?

So, was he locked into the doctrine? Or could he act of his will? I can see examples of both. What do you all see?

Why did Jesus do as he was instructed? At John 14:31 Jesus tells us what he wants the world to know about that.

"But for the world to know that I love the Father, I am doing just as the Father has commanded me to do."

So yes, Jesus has freedom of choice. So while yes he came to save mankind from Adam's rebellion and yes he does love mankind, these are not the main reason he came to Earth. He did it because he loves his Father so much, even to death.

[twobitsworth]

[Replying to ttruscott]

I see what you're saying about All Powerful. That is not the perspective I had in mind. I meant All Powerful in the sense that God knew absolutely what Jesus (and every other person before or since) would think and do a million years before.

To your other remark. I am aware of the difference between "could not" and "would not". The discussion here is only about "could not" , or "could" I suppose, if you believe he could.

If you believe he "could", or that he had the power to disobey God, then please explain how God could know absolutely that Jesus would obey......yet Jesus could disobey. Understanding that is critical to any discussion of Free Will.

[twobitsworth]

[Replying to post 242 by 2timothy316]

Your reply is much like that of TRuscott. The question isn't what Jesus "wanted" to do. The question is could Jesus or anyone else, disobey God when God knew a million years ago that he would not?

YOur remark presumes Jesus has free will, and then discussed how he uses it. My question and the OP question is to whether he had it at all. Whether there is any possibility of Jesus disobeying when God foreknows that he will not.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to ttruscott]

I see what you're saying about All Powerful. That is not the perspective I had in mind. I meant All Powerful in the sense that God knew absolutely what Jesus (and every other person before or since) would think and do a million years before.

Yes...to be precise that would be all knowing I guess and yet being all knowing in the definition given by Greek wisdom as knowing from eternity past to eternity future all that can be known is proven false by the implication that HE knew who would end in thell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY. I know the Church supports this slander but I persevere in pointing out Acts 15:18 as a Biblical alternative to this blasphemy.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 242 by 2timothy316]

Your reply is much like that of TRuscott. The question isn't what Jesus "wanted" to do. The question is could Jesus or anyone else, disobey God when God knew a million years ago that he would not?

YOur remark presumes Jesus has free will, and then discussed how he uses it. My question and the OP question is to whether he had it at all. Whether there is any possibility of Jesus disobeying when God foreknows that he will not.

I have never encountered a being that does something out of love but doesn't have freewill. So perhaps we need an example of someone that loves someone without choice, though I don't see how that's possible.

As far as God foreknowing everything, if that is so then God is not in control either. The timeline is in control. God is simply re-watching a movie He's already seen. He is at the mercy of linear timeline that he has no control. Or if He does control it then right now He is making you question freewill making people kill each other. I can't see how either of those options are viable.

There is also the option that God is not in our space-time continuum and doesn't see a linear timeline. This is to give His creations freewill. He sees all possible outcomes but still apparently has the ability to see a person's current course and it seems He will alter things around the person but not the person's ability to choose. It's most certainly beyond our current reasoning so perhaps we shouldn't be so dogmatic right now in any answer.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to ttruscott]If you believe he "could", or that he had the power to disobey God, then please explain how God could know absolutely that Jesus would obey......yet Jesus could disobey. Understanding that is critical to any discussion of Free Will.

I am a Trinitarian who believes the word echad, one, in the Shema is best translated as a UNITY as it is used in Genesis 2:24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become ONE flesh.

My theology suggests that their unity is one of a loving commitment to each other at every level such a thing might be measured... THEY know everything about each other and THEY are in total agreement about everything about each other. THEY know each can break that unity but THEY also know that none ever will.

We know each other through the glass of sin darkly, that is, muddied and backward...THEY know each other perfectly.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 1 by brianbbs67]

Some seem to contend that for Jesus to prove he had free will he should have failed. And that because he succeeded in his mission then he has no free will. Doesn't that smack of circular logic?

If Jesus had no free will then his sacrifice was of no value at all. God can only accept love, let alone sacrifice, from free-thinking individuals.

Matthew 22:37 says "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and WITH ALL THY MIND". - KJV

Good day.

Yes, of course Christ had free will. If he didn't, like you said, his sacrifice would have no value. Yet he EARNED his Father's approval by willingly dying for humans, and thus was "given a name that is above every other name" on earth or in heaven (excluding his Father's name of course), and was granted an even higher position in heaven than he had before (Philippians 2:8,9). If Jesus was a robot, he wouldn't have been able to achieve anything.

[onewithhim]

If that is true, and God could have been disobeyed in his plan, you are among those who believe in a powerful god. Right? Not an All Powerful God.

You apparently do not believe in a God so powerful that he can MAKE HIMSELF NOT KNOW THE FUTURE CONCERNING AN INDIVIDUAL. I do believe that he can do that.