Did Christ have free will?

[brianbbs67]

Did Jesus/Yeshua/whateverhisname have free will. We see him quote" the son can only do as the father has instructed". Or was he so devoted to the father it never was an issue?

So, was he locked into the doctrine? Or could he act of his will? I can see examples of both. What do you all see?

[twobitsworth]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

I have never encountered a being that does something out of love but doesn't have freewill. So perhaps we need an example of someone that loves someone without choice, though I don't see how that's possible.

"love" does not require free will. In fact they are unrelated, because love is not a choice. A person cannot choose to love someone--what and who we love is outside of our will(choice)

The subject of who and what we love is related to the question, in that the source of our emotions, ideas, thoughts, dreams, etc is what the World calls the unconscious mind. But that is a discussion for elsewhere.

[twobitsworth]

[Replying to onewithhim]

You are joking. Right?

You know, years ago when ancient fossils and bones were discovered....it was briefly asserted that God planted them all over the place....to test the faith of believers!! Really. Makes God out as some kind of buffoon out playing head games to increase the number of people going to hell.

Likewise, you have likely heard a saying similar to yours....Can God make an object too heavy for him to lift?

Silly stuff my friend. I asked a simple, and pivotal question about free will if God knows what jesus will do a million years before jedus was born...how jesus could have free will. Can you explain it please?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

I have never encountered a being that does something out of love but doesn't have freewill. So perhaps we need an example of someone that loves someone without choice, though I don't see how that's possible.

"love" does not require free will. In fact they are unrelated, because love is not a choice. A person cannot choose to love someone--what and who we love is outside of our will(choice)

What do you offer for a poof of this statement, or even evidence because it does not sound right to me? This is a debate forum and opinion must be noticed as such.

IF I hypnotize a person to 'love' me and they act lovingly for 20 years, is it true love? I don't think so - it is something else because the person had on choice in the matter. You answer is too simplistic. For instance, if I create a person who by the nature of their creation must love me, is that true love? I'd say no, not at all.

Your definition of choice aside, love would seem to need the agreement of the person involved, some recognition of the choices and some choosing to be involved for love to be real.

[twobitsworth]

[Replying to ttruscott]

The question of choice in love, is a considerable distance from the question at hand. However, I will explain briefly. Say you meet a girl named Julie. You care nothing for her. Can you go 1,2,3....presto, I hereby choose to be in love with her as of tomorrow morning at 9.?

No, you cannot. That is not how love works. Most folks recognize that fact, and use the phrsse "fall in love". Having fallen in love myself, I can testify to the absence of choice in the matter. I have never read or heard of a person "choosing" to love someone.

I continue to await an explanation of how Jesus had free will to disobey God, when God knew a million years before that he eould not

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to ttruscott]

The question of choice in love, is a considerable distance from the question at hand. However, I will explain briefly. Say you meet a girl named Julie. You care nothing for her. Can you go 1,2,3....presto, I hereby choose to be in love with her as of tomorrow morning at 9.?

No, you cannot. That is not how love works. Most folks recognize that fact, and use the phrsse "fall in love". Having fallen in love myself, I can testify to the absence of choice in the matter. I have never read or heard of a person "choosing" to love someone.

I continue to await an explanation of how Jesus had free will to disobey God, when God knew a million years before that he eould not

His answer aside, how do you explain how Jesus could not disobey God? I have seen nothing so far that concludes that as the only answer. Just because he didn't, does not mean he could not have.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316]

I have never encountered a being that does something out of love but doesn't have freewill. So perhaps we need an example of someone that loves someone without choice, though I don't see how that's possible.

"love" does not require free will. In fact they are unrelated, because love is not a choice. A person cannot choose to love someone--what and who we love is outside of our will(choice)

Love not a choice? That sounds like a Disney or lifetime movie plot. Jesus said to 'love your enemies' (Matthew 5:44) and that kind of love is an option. Too many time people confuse what they find attractive with love. The Greeks had multiple words for love. Eros, or sexually driven passion, is what many people think that is the only type of love. The one of the loves Jesus has is pragma love, which is the love that comes from a mature, long-established love. That kind of love is optional because it means a person committed to a relationship at some point. No one can just suddenly fall in pragma love, it's not possible. Love of one's enemies requires agape love or selfless love for others. No one can have this type of love forced on them, it too is a choice.

When Jesus said "I love the Father" in John 14:31 the word used was agapaó which means "take pleasure in, long for; denotes the love of reason, esteem." Helps word studies says of this word for love, "embracing God's will (choosing His choices) and obeying them through His power." One can't be forced to 'choose His choices'.

https://biblehub.com/greek/25.htm

So to say the love Jesus had for his Father don't require freewill is false. I'd also recommend avoiding romance movies, they are unrealistic and meant for kids and teenagers. If love wasn't a choice then why doesn't everyone love or not love God. Why are there some that do and some that don't? I have met those that had a love for God but abandoned that love. I also know of some that didn't love God but later came to love Him.

[ttruscott]

Can you go 1,2,3....presto, I hereby choose to be in love with her as of tomorrow morning at 9.?

No, you cannot. That is not how love works.

imCo,
I agree choice is not applicable to the scenario of a falling into emotional infatuation at all, since it is probably a chemical cascade. But neither is the type of 'love' that is forced upon anyone be their created nature causing them to (so called) love. Rather than the puppy love you describe, true (full or mature) love arises from the choice to be committed to the welfare and emotional well being of someone which directs all your actions to give them the best you can. Love is behavior, not emotion and as such can indeed be chosen. There is an emotional fulfillment to real love but real love is not based upon the selfish fulfillment of that feeling.

It is written that GOD shows HIS love for HIS enemies by giving them the rain and the sun while waiting for the end of the postponement of the judgement day. We too are asked to love our enemies which means that while we protect ourselves and our loved ones from them we do not torture them but give them the best we can. Our loving behaviour can indeed be found in chosen behaviours as Golde sings to Tevye (Fiddler on the Roof) in their duet, "Do You Love Me?"

True love is neither hormonal infatuation nor a Stepford Wives tale, but is somewhere in between created by our free will decision to be loving.

[ttruscott]

how Jesus had free will to disobey God, when God knew a million years before that he eould not

I believe I already told you my answer which is found in the fact that you are using a false, misleading definition of free will. A true free will decision is NOT KNOWN BY GOD because He knows that which HE has created, not that which HE allows another to create, Acts 15:18.

HE does not create the results of anyone's free will decisions so HE does not know them until we create them and bring them into reality. The corollary is that no sinner has a mind free from the coercion of evil so their decisions are both known by GOD before they make them and their acts are predetermined by God to fulfill HIS promise to HIS elect of salvation from any and all sin and to bring judgement for all sin.

[twobitsworth]

[Replying to ttruscott]

The idea that God knows people because he created them, but is ignorant of their decisions, and the result of their decisions....is novel to me. If true, we do not have an All Knowing God, but rather we have a God who knows some things but has no idea on others. A good topic for another discussion, and I can see why you'd think Jesus had free will. It is beyond God's ability to Know All, in your view.

Whether Jesus had free will can be shown this way, I think.

God is All Powerful, All Knowing
That means he knows what Jesus thought,felt, and did at all times
It also means God knew all this a million years before Jesus was born.
Now, say we take an example like Jesus walking on the water to meet the disciples in the boat. God knew Jesus would do that--and it would appear to the disciples and perhaps even Jesus himself---that it was a free will decision to walk out onto the water...but was it?
Could Jesus have decided NOT to walk out onto the water? Do something else?
No. he could only decide to walk on the water that night. If he decided anything else, the All Knowing God is overthrown. He becomes a powerful man, but definitely not God.

If God can be surprised by Jesus disobeying, we need to radically alter our view of God's capacity, and realize humans are a lot a closer to God in capability than we thought.

Finally, the verses we read such as that below, and others where Jesus confirms he (God) knows what we are thinking, should be excised from the Bible.
John 5;19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to ttruscott]

The idea that God knows people because he created them, but is ignorant of their decisions, and the result of their decisions....is novel to me. If true, we do not have an All Knowing God, but rather we have a God who knows some things but has no idea on others.

Act 15:18 (literally) Known from the age / the world are to GOD all the works of HIM. or, as per the King James Bible: Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. HE knows ALL HIS WORKS since THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD. This verse thus restricts what HE knows to 1. HIS works, usually considered to be HIS creative decrees and 2. HIS works since the beginning of the world, that is HIS knowing-ness is restricted both in scope and in time.

This is logical from the pov of creation also because if HE knew before HE created us who would end in hell, all HE had to do to keep hell free of people as HE has claimed in scripture HE wants to do, was TO NOT CREATE THEM HE KNEW WOULD END IN HELL !!! Anybody in hell puts a lie to HIS not wanting anyone to die or it puts the lie to HIS knowing all things from eternity past that can be known....your choice.

The implication of HIM only knowing HIS own works suggests that when HE created us with a free will, that HE did not create the results of our free will decisions but left those decisions up to us to created by choosing them and bringing them into reality. Thus HE would not know those decisions, ie, who would sin the unforgivable sin for instance, until we chose our decisions...solving the cognitive dissonance between HIS being all knowing yet people are created and end in hell.

Because the implications of this verse are that HE does NOT know everything that can be known as per the pagan Greek wisdom that came to be our orthodoxy, they have created some very interesting interpretations they present as biblical truth to solve their cognitive dissonance as is seen in the other Bibles renderings of this verse.