God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[PinSeeker]

Your man is having fun, advocating PCE rather than orthodoxy.

Well, I don't even know him, so he couldn't possibly be "my man..."

That aside, PCE people do get quite a few -- a lot, even -- things right and have a lot of good things to say (ttruscott comes to mind)... which is also the case with annihilationists. A pre-creation existence is certainly not one of those "good things" PCE folks believe -- just as is the case with annihilationists concerning their erroneous belief in cessation of existence. Both core beliefs are far from Christian orthodoxy.

Grace and peace.

Grace and peace to you also.

[Charles]

It doesn't matter if the sin occurred PCE or A(fter)CE. Why create us as eternal beings who could not cease to exist?

I do not know.

I can speculate that eternal life cannot be added onto a mortal being but I hesitate to do so...

[Charles]

A pre-creation existence is certainly not one of those "good things" PCE folks believe

Since an existence before your creation (a pre-creation existence) is impossible I guess I have to go with this statement as true...it is our pre-conception existence in Sheol pre-earth that I advocate as a very good thing solving many theologically necessary blasphemies such as inherited sin.

[PinSeeker]

A pre-creation existence is certainly not one of those "good things" PCE folks believe

Since an existence before your creation (a pre-creation existence) is impossible I guess I have to go with this statement as true...it is our pre-conception existence in Sheol pre-earth that I advocate as a very good thing solving many theologically necessary blasphemies such as inherited sin.

Ah. Yeah, pre-conception existence. That's what I meant. Ditto; there is no such thing. It's never mentioned or even hinted at in the Bible. And, in fact, it's refuted (by implication). The first Bible passage that comes to mind is Psalm 139, where David speaks of his creation and being "knitted together" in his mother's womb -- where he was conceived and was "fearfully and wonderfully made." And of course, if one was previously not made, he was also -- necessarily -- previously not in existence. Pre-conception existence is, therefore, not possible.

Also, "inherited sin," used woodenly as you do here, is false characterization. That we all have an inherited sinful nature, however, is a clear Biblical teaching; it's precisely why we are all in need of salvation and a Savior Who secures it for us on our behalf.

Grace and peace to you.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 254 by PinSeeker]

h. Yeah, pre-conception existence. That's what I meant. Ditto; there is no such thing. It's never mentioned or even hinted at in the Bible.

Good one, Pinseeker!

I knew I could rely on you. So predictable and so consistent. It's all or it's nothinng.

The Lord bless and keep you.

[Checkpoint]

A pre-creation existence is certainly not one of those "good things" PCE folks believe

Since an existence before your creation (a pre-creation existence) is impossible I guess I have to go with this statement as true...it is our pre-conception existence in Sheol pre-earth that I advocate as a very good thing solving many theologically necessary blasphemies such as inherited sin.

It seems to me you are advocating what you have just said "is impossible".

Well, maybe you are using "with God, all things are possible"...

[Charles]

Psalm 139, where David speaks of his creation and being "knitted together" in his mother's womb

Hi PinSeeker,

What is your proof that verse is about the creation of his spirit and not the creation of his body overlying, covering not weaving, him (his spirit) in the womb? Are you not interpreting this verse from the pov that this was his creation of both his spirit and body because you have already accepted that we are created on earth?

Eisegesis can be a tar baby!

What language would have be used to poetically speak of his spirit being covered over with a body of flesh in the womb? Surely this language is enough.

[Charles]

It's never mentioned or even hinted at in the Bible. And, in fact, it's refuted (by implication).

It is obviously hinted in the bible by the interpretation of the many verses I refer to constantly (list available). That your interpretation is contrary to mine is because you foist your interpretation upon the verses by eisegesis of a meaning not NECESSARILY found in the words.

And I find it supported by the implication that inherited sin is a horrendous blasphemy because I am not under the sway of doublethink!

[Charles]

And, in fact, it's refuted (by implication). The first Bible passage that comes to mind is Psalm 139, where David speaks of his creation and being "knitted together" in his mother's womb

Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
Knit: 5526. cakak Definition: to overshadow, screen, cover
woven...

Hmmm, let's look at verse Ps 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in secret, when I was woven [(embroiderer (1), skillfully wrought (1), weaver)] together in the depths of the earth.

You claim he was woven in the womb yet v15 say he was woven in the depths of the earth....

This contradiction is because English used to define different words as if they were the same idea, sigh. If these were just ideas, not aspects of reality, fine, but it does not work that way...

I suggest that the depths of the earth refers to Sheol as the place of creation of all spirits in HIS image while the womb refers to his getting his body when he was sown, planted, into mankind, Matt 36-39.

[Charles]

Also, "inherited sin," used woodenly as you do here, is false characterization. That we all have an inherited sinful nature, however, is a clear Biblical teaching; it's precisely why we are all in need of salvation and a Savior Who secures it for us on our behalf.

We are in need of a saviour because WE CHOSE BY OUR OWN FREE WILL TO REBEL AGAINST HIS WILL OR HIS PLANS FOR US... not by inherited sin...concept.

Whether it is called being created evil or with a sinful nature, it all means the same thing - if we are not changed by a rebirth we will face eternal hell. No true guilt can accrue to anyone who does not choose evil by his own free will, mens rea. Man's law is not superior to GOD's!!! And since the doctrine of inherited sin says we are not sinners by choosing this sin, the one who makes us (creates us, forces us to be) in this evil is the one guilty for our evil. Period. That is why this idea is blasphemous...

Grace and peace to you.

Why thank you and may you receive what you wish for me...