What better way to disprove the Bible

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:06 am

Givens:
Rome in Jesus time was a divine monarchy, ruled by the demi-god Tiberius Caesar, in the name of his father, who was a God, Caesar Augustus.
These two were empowered by the all-powerful Jove, aka Zeus, Jupiter, etc..
The coins used to pay Roman tax had "The God Augustus," or "Tiberius, son of the God Augustus" stamped right on them.

To give heed to false gods, is against the commandments, a sin and blasphemy, and it would be better to die than to do so.

Jesus said, within a short distance of temples raised to the Gods Jupiter and Augustus (where taxes were paid),

Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

Essentially saying pay to one god, Caesar, his tithes, and to the other god, Theos, his tithes.

Also -

Romans 13:1 "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God."

Proposition:

However, anyone worshiping God, would be blaspheming by either respecting a pagan government, or paying tax to a different god.

How is it possible to rectify the blasphemies perpetrated and encouraged by the Christian spokesperson against his father?

Even touching the coins to pay Caesars' taxes would be blasphemy.

Is there some scripture that clarifies this? Is there anything other then denials and opinions that this is not the case?

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:08 pm

[Replying to post 30 by tam]

No, I emphasized Theos to distinguish god and God. I apologize it didn't help. But...

That bit was pretty meaningless, what about the rest? Can you say anything to save Jesus from himself?
Bible verses saying that it is OK to pay foreign gods the sacrifices (coins) they desire?
Anything?

tam · Post by **tam** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:39 pm

[Replying to post 31 by Willum]

Willum, Christ does not say anything like what you have Him 'essentially' saying. You added to His words, in more than just leaving God as Theos. (which IS misdirecting, by the way).

He does not say give to the god, Caesar... and give to the other god, Theos/God....

He says give to Ceasar what belongs to Caesar... and then He says to give to God what belongs to God.

The coins with Caesar's inscription belong to Caesar. Simple coins... not worship... and the coins belong to Caesar. But worship belongs to God.

As He said elsewhere:

You must worship the LORD your God and serve only him.'" (quoting from Deuteronomy 6:13)

So is He giving two opposing messages? Or is it you who has placed your own spin and meaning upon His words? Meaning that He did not Himself place upon there; meaning that is refuted by His own words when He quotes the commandment to worship YHWH alone?

You are DOING the very thing that you accused me of doing:

Telling him (or rather, telling us) what He said, putting words in His mouth (indeed, you HAVE done that, that is not even in question), and mis-direction (which is what can happen when you put words in someone's mouth that they did not SAY).

HIS OWN WORDS refute your claim because He, Himself, says to worship God (YHWH) alone.

Peace again to you, Willum, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:10 pm

[Replying to tam]

Willum, Christ does not say anything like what you have Him 'essentially' saying. You added to His words, in more than just leaving God as Theos. (which IS misdirecting, by the way).

Theos was for clairification Tam, you are making too much of it -

He does not say give to the god, Caesar... and give to the other god, Theos/God....

If he said give to Zeus the things that are Zeus', and God the things that are God's, then the analogy is understandable.
CAESAR IS A GOD, just as Zeus is. If you could possibly imagine yourself in the days of the Caesars, you would understand this.

He says give to Ceasar what belongs to Caesar... and then He says to give to God what belongs to God.

And Caesar is a god.

The coins with Caesar's inscription belong to Caesar. Simple coins... not worship... and the coins belong to Caesar. But worship belongs to God.

Yes,Tam, and the rams you sacrifice to God, belong to God. They are not simple coins, but graven images of a man declaring himself (or his father) to be divine!

As He said elsewhere:

You must worship the LORD your God and serve only him.'" (quoting from Deuteronomy 6:13)

Yes, and definitely NOT a deceased emperor claiming to be a god. Therefore Jesus is false.

So is He giving two opposing messages? Or is it you who has placed your own spin and meaning upon His words? Meaning that He did not Himself place upon there; meaning that is refuted by His own words when He quotes the commandment to worship YHWH alone?

Yes, he is giving two messages, that is the claim of the OP, get it yet? Since he says to venerate the God Caesar's desires, he is guilty of blasphemy against his own father. This is something, that, if you put yourself in the place of Jews of the day, you would understand. This is why they had the religious insurrection of 70 AD, do you think Jews liked being forced to worship the Caesars?

You are DOING the very thing that you accused me of doing:

Telling him (or rather, telling us) what He said, putting words in His mouth (indeed, you HAVE done that, that is not even in question), and mis-direction (which is what can happen when you put words in someone's mouth that they did not SAY).

Negative: I am just putting them into context.

Imagine, if you will witnessing Jesus give his famous "Render to Caesar speech..." he is within walking distance of a temple or shrine dedicated to Caesar, with Caesar Augustus' statues nearby.

HIS OWN WORDS refute your claim because He, Himself, says to worship God (YHWH) alone.

I absolutely agree - but he also says comply with the pagan government of Rome, and give the offering desired by the god Caesar.

Kings 2:17 says this is evil.

oldbadger · Post by **oldbadger** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:15 pm

Willum...
My post was so small that you probably missed it..?

You've got this completely wrong, I think.
This time I'll ask two questions, if that's OK?

Let me ask again:
1. Do you agree that Jesus was in the Great Temple when he was asked whether Jews should pay tribute to Caesar?
2. Do you understand that the coin he was given was not a penny? Nor was it a Denarius?

Do you agree?

oldbadger · Post by **oldbadger** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:28 pm

tam wrote:
He does not say give to the god, Caesar... and give to the other god, Theos/God....

He says give to Ceasar what belongs to Caesar... and then He says to give to God what belongs to God.

I don't think he said that, Tam.
I propose one extra letter in the two sentences.... an S
Give those things to Caesar that are Caesar's, and to Gods the things that are Gods.

The coins with Caesar's inscription belong to Caesar

No they didn't! The all important coin did have Caesar's inscription but it did NOT belong to Caesar!
Only the inscription was Caesar's!
I know you don't know me, but please consider what I am proposing. The Obverse did not have Caesar's head! Somebody else's! But the Reverse did have Caesar's inscription.

This is more clever than the bystanders ever figured out, much more.
I've been researching this for a time, and Jesus was more clever than the authors ever figured. And the coin was not Caesar's! And Jews did not pay 'Head' taxes with Caesar's coinage.

If you look up about the Head-tax duty for Jewish males you will probably come at it, and it'#s truly amazing. Jesus was very very clever about this.

Why did he ask, 'Whose head, AND whose inscription?
Why did he say 'Give Caesar's to Caesars., and Gods' to Gods'?
Why were the priests amazed at him? Amazingly amazed?

It's alright...... there's no catch for Christians in it.

I can prove all this stuff. I'm just enjoying the ;posts, just now!

oldbadger · Post by **oldbadger** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:32 pm

oldbadger wrote:
tam wrote:
He does not say give to the god, Caesar... and give to the other god, Theos/God....

He says give to Ceasar what belongs to Caesar... and then He says to give to God what belongs to God.
I don't think he said that, Tam.
I propose one extra letter in the two sentences.... an S
Give those things to Caesar that are Caesar's, and to Gods the things that are Gods.

The coins with Caesar's inscription belong to Caesar
No they didn't! The all important coin did have Caesar's inscription but it did NOT belong to Caesar!
Only the inscription was Caesar's!
I know you don't know me, but please consider what I am proposing. The Obverse did not have Caesar's head! Somebody else's! But the Reverse did have Caesar's inscription.

This is more clever than the bystanders ever figured out, much more.
I've been researching this for a time, and Jesus was more clever than the authors ever figured. And the coin was not Caesar's! And Jews did not pay 'Head' taxes with Caesar's coinage.

If you look up about the Head-tax duty for Jewish males you will probably come at it, and it'#s truly amazing. Jesus was very very clever about this.

Why did he ask, 'Whose head, AND whose inscription?
Why did he say 'Give Caesar's to Caesars., and Gods' to Gods'?
Why were the priests amazed at him? Amazingly amazed?

It's alright...... there's no catch for Christians in it.

I can prove all this stuff. I'm just enjoying the ;posts, just now!

EDIT: I don't think I can post up pictures, so I'll dig up a good internet connection for you to see both sides of the coin that they showed Jesus. There were only two abundant taxation coins in the Temple, and neither had Caesar's Head.

oldbadger · Post by **oldbadger** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:48 pm

[Replying to post 32 by tam]

Here you go. The Temple collected head tax with over 500,000 of these in any year, and they may have taken that many during each major feast.

Have a look at it and then I'll show you some maths...

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=tyria ... -lWwOPwpQM:

...and that is not Caesar's head, but the KP on the Reverse is Caesar's inscription in Greek Abreviation. Sometimes these coins had KAP instead of KP... same person.

Now, each coin was 7grams of fine silver, so 4 of these coins equaled one ounze.
500,000 /4 x $18.38 (present price) = $2,297,500 !!! from which Rome took a cut, those greedy priests too a cut, and what was left paid the levites, priests, upkeep blah blah.

Now, Jesus was a very clever being..... there's more but it's my bathtime!

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:23 pm

[Replying to oldbadger]

Hi OB, you are on my ignore list for similar posts, this is why:

Wikipedia disagrees:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribute_penny
and Tiberius WAS Caesar during the time in question. Sorry to burst that bubble, but those were the coin. The inscription, "Tiberius Caesar, son of the Divine Augustus"! In a way Jesus and Tiberius were brothers, they both had divine fathers! Except Tiberius was real, and of course "the suffering servant" messiah prediction of Isaiah describes Tiberius to a "T."

The "Great Temple," was in terrible disrepair and an embarrassment at the time, and it was certainly within walking distance of the "Temple Mount,"originally dedicated to the all-powerful Jove.

Ah, well.

oldbadger · Post by **oldbadger** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 6:50 pm

Willum wrote: [Replying to oldbadger]

Hi OB, you are on my ignore list for similar posts, this is why:

Wikipedia disagrees:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribute_penny
and Tiberius WAS Caesar during the time in question. Sorry to burst that bubble, but those were the coin. The inscription, "Tiberius Caesar, son of the Divine Augustus"! In a way Jesus and Tiberius were brothers, they both had divine fathers! Except Tiberius was real, and of course "the suffering servant" messiah prediction of Isaiah describes Tiberius to a "T."

The "Great Temple," was in terrible disrepair and an embarrassment at the time, and it was certainly within walking distance of the "Temple Mount,"originally dedicated to the all-powerful Jove.

Ah, well.

Hi Willum, I guess that one way of handling overwhelming evidence against a belief is to ignore it!
But you would ignore this at your expense I think....

You got the coin wrong, so the fact that it showed Caesar's head is worthless to you. It only weighed in a 3.7grams fine silver, and the Jews paid head tax 7.2 grams fine silver and only two coins were acceptable, struck in a mint near Jerusalem but copying the same coin as was struck in Tyre until 19BC. It was consistent in purity and weight regardless of being a shoddy copy.

Why do you think there were money changers in the Temple? Because no other coinage could be used to pay the head tax!

And the obverse did not show Caesar's head, although the reverse did show Caesar's name.

Jesus was very very clever, far more clever than the NT suggests. He asked,'Bring me a coin to see'. They did. He asked,'Whose image? AND WHOSE INSCRIPTION?' Now why did he ask for both answers? Clever!
The priests dared not call out the name of the image... dared not! So they callred out the name of the inscription. 'Caesars!' It was correct, but it was a cop out and they knew it, and knew to shut up quickly!

And then, the beautiful finale,'Give to Caesar things belonging to Caesar. Give to God(s) things that belong to Gods' and thety was dead beat and dumbstruck.

Because the Temple Head ax was paid with the Tyrian half-shekel which showed the image of the Greek God Melgarth-Heracles..... The Jewish Temple's coin! The Jews knew this God as BAAL!

You couldn't make it up......... it was true!

I can show anything required!

You proposal is washed up, Willum!

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:11 pm

[Replying to oldbadger]

You've expressed desires and denial.
The cleverness you claim is Jesus' down fall.

It fools Christians, because it was designed to be a clever "compromise," but it enraged Jews, because they couldn't even touch the coins. Can't you see how a Greek listening to Jesus would think it "clever" just as you do? While a Jew, forced to worship Tiberius' father as a God would scream for Jesus' blood?

And they did scream for his blood, in the story.

I'll trust wiki over a Christians' desperate hopes.

Goodbye again OB.