Jesus Way of Shepherding

[OneJack]

Jesus Way of Shepherding - COMING to and FOLLOWING the Lord Jesus Christ until the end,

Let's examine closely the flow of actions between the sheep and the Lord regarding salvation:


27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.


28. And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Read between the lines:

1. When we hear the voice of the Lord Jesus, we are known by Him.

2. When we follow the Lord Jesus, He gives us:

a) eternal life,
b) we shall never perish, and
c) no one can pluck us out of His hand.

There is no teaching of Jesus about 'free gift' or 'by grace, and the belief in the finished work of Christ to be saved, as you teach it today. Instead, those teachings are from Paul. Paul is not Jesus, even if you say he was sent by the Lord."

[Capbook]

The verse 9 does not say two "them" I colored blue above, why add? Hope you can answer this question, whose "souls" that were slain?

Again, just hoping you will answer the question as, whose "souls" that were slain in verse 9? Just see your top response I colored blue for your ready reference.

I just split the them to emphasize the following examples, just for clarity.

1. The souls of John, Peter, and Paul., and

2. John, Peter, and Paul that were slain.

Going back to the original statement, we have,

The souls of them [John, Peter, and Paul] that were slain

Rev 6:10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Without spewing mud and lava, murky narratives can be avoided. Clearly, the 'them' that were slain were flesh and blood " human bodies here on earth. However, the killers weren't able to kill the souls of those human bodies, which surely decomposed in the grave.

Yes to your answer number 1. And likewise yes to your number 2, because John, Peter and Paul were living souls/person that were killed.(NASB wordings)(Gen 2:7 NASB) used "living person" while others used "living soul."

(NASB) Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person.

(NASB) Rev 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
(NASB) Rev 6:10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who live on the earth?
(NASB) Rev 6:11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told that they were to rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers and sisters who were to be killed even as they had been, was completed also.

Do verse 10 mentioned the word "bodies"? Why add? Through context of the three verses, verse 9 speaks of "souls of them that were slain". Then, whose "souls that were slain"?

The Lord Jesus, through the Son, said,

See my hands and my feet, that it is truly me. Touch me and see, for a spirit doesn't have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.

Where there's flesh, there's blood, and flesh, blood, and bone make up a body. Therefore, the bodies (referenced by 'blood' in verse 10) were the ones slain, while the souls were taken up under the altar in a place beyond our world.

Three verses prior to the text you quote (Luke 24:39) does not said "The Lord Jesus, through the Son said." Verse 36 from NASB, speaks of "Jesus Himself" not through the Son.
And you've just proven that Jesus Christ is not a spirit as from His own words He has flesh and blood a direct contradiction to you interpretation of Him.(Luke 24:39, Heb 10:10)

(NASB) Luk 24:36 Now while they were telling these things, Jesus Himself suddenly stood in their midst and *said to them, Peace be to you.
Luk 24:39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you plainly see that I have.
Heb 10:10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

[OneJack]

[Replying to Capbook in post #31]

Three verses prior to the text you quote (Luke 24:39) does not said "The Lord Jesus, through the Son said." Verse 36 from NASB, speaks of "Jesus Himself" not through the Son.
And you've just proven that Jesus Christ is not a spirit as from His own words He has flesh and blood a direct contradiction to you interpretation of Him.(Luke 24:39, Heb 10:10)

(NASB) Luk 24:36 Now while they were telling these things, Jesus Himself suddenly stood in their midst and *said to them, Peace be to you.
Luk 24:39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you plainly see that I have.
Heb 10:10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

Unless you tell me your personal take on the real identity of Jesus, well just be running in circles all day long everytime we talk about the Son of God and Jesus. Theres only one body that was raised from the dead - the body of the man who was born of Mary, and that body was what the apostles and disciples called the body of Christ.

[Capbook]

[Replying to Capbook in post #31]

Three verses prior to the text you quote (Luke 24:39) does not said "The Lord Jesus, through the Son said." Verse 36 from NASB, speaks of "Jesus Himself" not through the Son.
And you've just proven that Jesus Christ is not a spirit as from His own words He has flesh and blood a direct contradiction to you interpretation of Him.(Luke 24:39, Heb 10:10)

(NASB) Luk 24:36 Now while they were telling these things, Jesus Himself suddenly stood in their midst and *said to them, Peace be to you.
Luk 24:39 See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you plainly see that I have.
Heb 10:10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

Unless you tell me your personal take on the real identity of Jesus, well just be running in circles all day long everytime we talk about the Son of God and Jesus. Theres only one body that was raised from the dead - the body of the man who was born of Mary, and that body was what the apostles and disciples called the body of Christ.

We're not running in circles because I just stick to your made definition of them below. When the verse mention "Jesus Christ" He is not the "Son of God" because as per your definition He just a man in flesh and Jesus Christ to you is the Almighty God the Father. We have to be careful of their specific names as you define them differently.
I'll write my take about the identity of Jesus in addition to your numbered definition.

1.The Son of God - the son who was born of Mary, a human son like us (Luke 1:35). - The "Son of God" has a divine nature because His father is God. The "Son of man" He has the nature of man as His mother is human Mary. The honest logic of the latter, I believe can be applied to the former.(Mat 26:63,64) As cat bears kitten and dogs bears puppies.
2. Jesus - one of the seven names of God given to the Son (Matt 1:21; Isa 7:14; 9:6). - Yes, I agree with this.
3. Jesus Christ - the name of the Father that the Son of God proclaimed to the Jews (John 17:3). - Jesus Christ is the prophesied Messiah in the OT, separate and distinct person to the Father.(Mat 28:19)
4. The Father - The Almighty God (John 17:1-3). - Yes, the Father is a separate and distinct person to Jesus the Messiah.(2 Cor 13:14)
5. The Holy Spirit - one of the many Spirit beings created by the Almighty God. - the HS is not a created being, and not integral part of the Father because blasphemy against the Father can be forgiven but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven.(Luke 12:10, Mat 12:31, Rev 13:6)
Where Bible lexicon defined "blasphemes" in Greek "- blasph"me" as to speak impious irreverence against God.

Luk 12:10 "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.
Mat 12:31 Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

G987 Mounce
- blasph"me
34x: to defame, revile, slander, Mat_27:39; to speak of God or divine things in terms of impious irreverence, to blaspheme, Mat_9:3; Mat_26:65.

[OneJack]

[Replying to Capbook in post #33]

1.The Son of God - the son who was born of Mary, a human son like us (Luke 1:35). - The "Son of God" has a divine nature because His father is God. The "Son of man" He has the nature of man as His mother is human Mary. The honest logic of the latter, I believe can be applied to the former.(Mat 26:63,64) As cat bears kitten and dogs bears puppies.

Could you please elaborate on "divine nature"? Did the Son of God acknowledge Mary as his biological mother? Does the logic you mentioned apply to the virgin birth of Mary, where the Son was conceived in Mary's womb through the Holy Spirit, without a human father?

3. Jesus Christ - the name of the Father that the Son of God proclaimed to the Jews (John 17:3). - Jesus Christ is the prophesied Messiah in the OT, separate and distinct person to the Father.(Mat 28:19)

If Jesus Christ were a separate and distinct person from the Father, Jesus Christ, through the Son of God, would surely declare that to the Jews. Why didn't He? Instead, the Son of God declared that He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him. Where is the separate person from the Father in that?

4. The Father - The Almighty God (John 17:1-3). - Yes, the Father is a separate and distinct person to Jesus the Messiah.(2 Cor 13:14)

The only authority who could say that with certainty was the Son of God in His time, but nothing was heard from Him regarding that matter.

Matt 11:27. .. and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

5. The Holy Spirit - one of the many Spirit beings created by the Almighty God. - the HS is not a created being, and not integral part of the Father because blasphemy against the Father can be forgiven but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven.(Luke 12:10, Mat 12:31, Rev 13:6)

1. In the whole OT, only the Almighty God was the sole speaker throughout the ages, with no mention of the Holy Spirit or Son in His company.
2. There is only one Almighty God"the Father.

If blasphemy against the Father is forgivable, why isn't blasphemy against the Holy Spirit forgivable? Does this mean the Holy Spirit is higher and above the Almighty God, as suggested in Luke 12:10, Matt 12:31, and Rev 13:6?

[Capbook]

1.The Son of God - the son who was born of Mary, a human son like us (Luke 1:35). - The "Son of God" has a divine nature because His father is God. The "Son of man" He has the nature of man as His mother is human Mary. The honest logic of the latter, I believe can be applied to the former.(Mat 26:63,64) As cat bears kitten and dogs bears puppies.

Could you please elaborate on "divine nature"? Did the Son of God acknowledge Mary as his biological mother? Does the logic you mentioned apply to the virgin birth of Mary, where the Son was conceived in Mary's womb through the Holy Spirit, without a human father?

You have defined and confirmed that the "Son of God" as the Son was born of Mary, see your no. 1 definition I colored blue above.
About the divine nature of the Son, I will quote from literal word for word Bible translation the NAS95 render the phrase "the only begotten God" supported by the oldest manuscripts the papyrus 66 and papyrus 75;

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

3. Jesus Christ - the name of the Father that the Son of God proclaimed to the Jews (John 17:3). - Jesus Christ is the prophesied Messiah in the OT, separate and distinct person to the Father.(Mat 28:19)

If Jesus Christ were a separate and distinct person from the Father, Jesus Christ, through the Son of God, would surely declare that to the Jews. Why didn't He? Instead, the Son of God declared that He is in the Father, and the Father is in Him. Where is the separate person from the Father in that?

The question would be, how the body of Jesus Christ be in the Father?(Heb 10:10)

4. The Father - The Almighty God (John 17:1-3). - Yes, the Father is a separate and distinct person to Jesus the Messiah.(2 Cor 13:14)

The only authority who could say that with certainty was the Son of God in His time, but nothing was heard from Him regarding that matter.

Matt 11:27. .. and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Jesus was on earth when He said that the "Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven".
Who did Jesus refer as the One "of power" there?
As the "Son of Man" in flesh per your interpretation cannot enter heaven, then why He is there sitting at the right hand of power in heaven?

Mat 26:64 Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

5. The Holy Spirit - one of the many Spirit beings created by the Almighty God. - the HS is not a created being, and not integral part of the Father because blasphemy against the Father can be forgiven but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven.(Luke 12:10, Mat 12:31, Rev 13:6)

1. In the whole OT, only the Almighty God was the sole speaker throughout the ages, with no mention of the Holy Spirit or Son in His company.
2. There is only one Almighty God"the Father.

If the Father was the sole speaker throughout the ages, would you consider Jesus was lying when He said the John 5:37, that anytime neither had heard the Father's voice?

Joh 5:37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

If blasphemy against the Father is forgivable, why isn't blasphemy against the Holy Spirit forgivable? Does this mean the Holy Spirit is higher and above the Almighty God, as suggested in Luke 12:10, Matt 12:31, and Rev 13:6?

I will not question what the Bible said. And I will not interpret it as One is higher or
above the Other.
My interpretation with is that the Holy Spirit is a separate and distinct person to the Father. The term "forgivable and unforgivable " clearly indicate a two separate being.

[OneJack]

[Replying to Capbook in post #35]

You have defined and confirmed that the "Son of God" as the Son was born of Mary, see your no. 1 definition I colored blue above.
About the divine nature of the Son, I will quote from literal word for word Bible translation the NAS95 render the phrase "the only begotten God" supported by the oldest manuscripts the papyrus 66 and papyrus 75;

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

From the KJV:

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

This phrase begotten Son is in harmony with John 14:10-11, John 17:3, 26; 2nd Samuel 7:14 in many translations of the Bible, but the begotten God in your version is not applicable to those mentioned verses because the begotten God would appear as God, whereas the begotten Son dont.

The question would be, how the body of Jesus Christ be in the Father?(Heb 10:10)

You know my stand, Jesus Christ is the Father who is Spirit. As you have your spirit in you, so was the Father or Jesus in the body of the Son of God.

Jesus was on earth when He said that the "Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven".
Who did Jesus refer as the One "of power" there?

That is yet to come, dont you understand that? There is only one power up there in heaven where and in all the earth and the universe - the Father whose name is Jesus.

As the "Son of Man" in flesh per your interpretation cannot enter heaven, then why He is there sitting at the right hand of power in heaven?

Mat 26:64 Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

You will see is not yesterday, not today, but is yet to come and the beholder will still be here on earth, meaning its not in heaven or Paradise, where and when the kingdom of God will be available to the families of God.

If the Father was the sole speaker throughout the ages, would you consider Jesus was lying when He said the John 5:37, that anytime neither had heard the Father's voice?

Joh 5:37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

Jesus is telling the truth, no one has heard His (Father) voice nor has seen His (Father) shape.

I will not question what the Bible said. And I will not interpret it as One is higher or
above the Other.
My interpretation with is that the Holy Spirit is a separate and distinct person to the Father. The term "forgivable and unforgivable " clearly indicate a two separate being.

Okay! Ill still hold onto what we learned from the Lord that the Holy Spirit is also created Spirit being.

The Lord Jesus says:

There is only one God, but like people, if a person has a name like Jose, he may also have nicknames like Juseng or Use. Similarly, God has different names - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - but He is still one Almighty God. He called Himself the Son when He became human to redeem people's sins, and He is called the Holy Spirit as a guide for people. Because some people have limited understanding, they don't believe that God is everywhere, so He gave Himself different names, but some people still think God is three.

[Capbook]

You have defined and confirmed that the "Son of God" as the Son was born of Mary, see your no. 1 definition I colored blue above.
About the divine nature of the Son, I will quote from literal word for word Bible translation the NAS95 render the phrase "the only begotten God" supported by the oldest manuscripts the papyrus 66 and papyrus 75;

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

From the KJV:

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

This phrase begotten Son is in harmony with John 14:10-11, John 17:3, 26; 2nd Samuel 7:14 in many translations of the Bible, but the begotten God in your version is not applicable to those mentioned verses because the begotten God would appear as God, whereas the begotten Son dont.

Is there any manuscripts that can support to rebut the oldest manuscripts, the papyri 66 and 75?

The question would be, how the body of Jesus Christ be in the Father?(Heb 10:10)

You know my stand, Jesus Christ is the Father who is Spirit. As you have your spirit in you, so was the Father or Jesus in the body of the Son of God.

The verse is specific of the "body of Jesus Christ". No mention of spirit and Son of God, you just keep jumping to your made specific definition of them that creates confusion. As they were specifically defined by you, we have to observed what the Bible specifically named.

Jesus was on earth when He said that the "Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven".
Who did Jesus refer as the One "of power" there?

That is yet to come, dont you understand that? There is only one power up there in heaven where and in all the earth and the universe - the Father whose name is Jesus.

Yes, that is yet to come, but that is already written and must happen. The fleshy "Son of Man" that cannot enter heaven will sit at the right hand of the Father in heaven. They will be both in heaven where the Father is.

As the "Son of Man" in flesh per your interpretation cannot enter heaven, then why He is there sitting at the right hand of power in heaven?

Mat 26:64 Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

You will see is not yesterday, not today, but is yet to come and the beholder will still be here on earth, meaning its not in heaven or Paradise, where and when the kingdom of God will be available to the families of God.

Again yes, yet to come but it is written and must happen. But the point there again is that the fleshly "Son of Man" that cannot enter heaven will sit at the right hand of the Father in heaven.

If the Father was the sole speaker throughout the ages, would you consider Jesus was lying when He said the John 5:37, that anytime neither had heard the Father's voice?

Joh 5:37 "And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

Jesus is telling the truth, no one has heard His (Father) voice nor has seen His (Father) shape.

Now, you deny your own words that the Father is sole speaker throughout the ages?

I will not question what the Bible said. And I will not interpret it as One is higher or
above the Other.
My interpretation with is that the Holy Spirit is a separate and distinct person to the Father. The term "forgivable and unforgivable " clearly indicate a two separate being.

Okay! Ill still hold onto what we learned from the Lord that the Holy Spirit is also created Spirit being.

The Lord Jesus says:

There is only one God, but like people, if a person has a name like Jose, he may also have nicknames like Juseng or Use. Similarly, God has different names - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - but He is still one Almighty God. He called Himself the Son when He became human to redeem people's sins, and He is called the Holy Spirit as a guide for people. Because some people have limited understanding, they don't believe that God is everywhere, so He gave Himself different names, but some people still think God is three.

Yes, I believe on the Trinity and not on your made definition which would create many confusions.

[LightBearer]

Jesus Way of Shepherding - COMING to and FOLLOWING the Lord Jesus Christ until the end,

Let's examine closely the flow of actions between the sheep and the Lord regarding salvation:


27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.


28. And I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Read between the lines:

1. When we hear the voice of the Lord Jesus, we are known by Him.

2. When we follow the Lord Jesus, He gives us:

a) eternal life,
b) we shall never perish, and
c) no one can pluck us out of His hand.

There is no teaching of Jesus about 'free gift' or 'by grace, and the belief in the finished work of Christ to be saved, as you teach it today. Instead, those teachings are from Paul. Paul is not Jesus, even if you say he was sent by the Lord."

What is the New Covenant?

The Law in our hearts and minds

That is a gift. A Gift through Jesus.

That is grace.

John's Gospel is my favorite.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.



It seems you are of the persuasion OSAS.

Correct?

[OneJack]

[Replying to LightBearer in post #38]

What is the New Covenant?

The Law in our hearts and minds

That is a gift. A Gift through Jesus.

That is grace.

John's Gospel is my favorite.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Clearly, you've just woven them into the doctrine of your salvation. Even if you internalize them all until the end, nothing will bring you the salvation you've been longing for unless you come to Jesus, call on Him, and listen to and follow Him until the end.

It seems you are of the persuasion OSAS.

Correct?

I'm not a Baptist, but just a plain follower of the Living Christ Jesus. Salvation is conditional and can be lost, just like a branch that's cast away when it doesn't bear fruit."

[OneJack]

[Replying to Capbook in post #37]

Is there any manuscripts that can support to rebut the oldest manuscripts, the papyri 66 and 75?

In my view, I wouldn't resort to finding manuscripts to rebut the oldest ones because the Holder of the Truth is always just a call away, 24/7.

The verse is specific of the "body of Jesus Christ". No mention of spirit and Son of God, you just keep jumping to your made specific definition of them that creates confusion. As they were specifically defined by you, we have to observed what the Bible specifically named.

Biblically speaking, the Son declared the Father as Jesus Christ whom He (Father) has sent, or if you dont like that, the Son declared eternal life as Jesus Christ whom He (Father) has sent (John 17:3). Since only the Almighty God the Father is the Etetnal Life, and the Son declared Jesus Christ as the Eternal Life, it follows Jesus Christ is Spirit.

Yes, that is yet to come, but that is already written and must happen. The fleshy "Son of Man" that cannot enter heaven will sit at the right hand of the Father in heaven. They will be both in heaven where the Father is.

The verse you referred to doesnt say the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven where the Father is. If that were the case, how could we on earth see Him?

Now, you deny your own words that the Father is sole speaker throughout the ages?

Why do you say that?

Yes, I believe on the Trinity and not on your made definition which would create many confusions.

Its better for us now to go thy way, and Ill go mine, shall we?