Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 339 by Claire Evans]

It is a fact that people witnessed Jesus doing supernatural act. This is from Celsus a pagan philosopher, from the 2nd century AD

You do realise that the link you give me contradicts the New Testament? It says Mary the Mother of Jesus was driven out by her husband, when the NT gives us every indication the two had a long and successful marriage? That the link says Jesus's powers were from the Egyptians and NOT from God, that he returned 'full of conceit'?
Again, it seems you don't bother reading what it is you cite.
Besides, I have to ask...why is your burden of proof so low? Someone two centuries after Jesus writes that people saw Jesus do magical things...and for you, this is enough.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 313 by Elijah John]

Are you going to respond to my post # 336?


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[OnceConvinced]

Yes, we do know that for certain. The Bishop Nicholas did exist. Santa was never claimed to be God incarnate/the Son of God.

Many Christians argue that Jesus never did either.

They don't know what they are talking about.

I disagree, many of them know exactly what they are talking about, but you can argue that with them. They have scriptures to back up their claims too. It's all a matter of interpretation and you don't get to dictate what the correct interpretation is.

Can you please give me an example? What is Christianity without the belief that Jesus is the Son of God? Are you referring to Gnostic Christians?

If you spend enough time on this website you will come up across such arguments. I really don't want to get into the debate of whether they are right in what they believe or not. They can speak for themselves. Their opinions are just as valid as yours. Flagging them away as "They don't know what they are talking about" is hardly fair when they are not here to defend themselves.

Santa was not the pivot of a major world religion.

So you are going to resort to the logical fallacy of "appeal to Popularity"? Really?
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... Popularity

Perhaps it's more important to have a relationship with Santa than to have religions revolving around him?

The fact is Santa has a huge impact on this world. Every year at Christmas he is an integral part of many families lives and we have an entire night dedicated to him (Christmas Eve). People dress up as him and go to our shopping malls. You don't see people dressing up as Jesus and going to our shopping malls.

People practise the giving of gifts, just as Santa did. They even put them under the Christmas tree and in stockings just like the stories go.

It would be dishonest to downplay the massive influence Santa has had on humans even today.

Those adults who believe in Santa most likely have the intelligence of a seven year old or have mental illness.

Many would say the same thing about people who believe in Jesus and who pray to Jesus and believe Jesus speaks back to them.

But nobody has accused Santa of witch-craft,

I would not say Santa was a witch. I would say he was using some kind of godly power, not magic.

But has anyone historically said Santa had godly powers and that they knew he existed?

Indeed yes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

Take a look at that. You will see that he also performed miracles and was known as the "Wonder worker". Take a look further down the page and see the miracles he did. He even performed RESURRECTIONS!

Even the Tacitus doesn't describe Jesus as having godly powers. Only that there was a guy who was executed by that name. There is more convincing evidence that St Nick existed.

there is now investigations into the veracity of claims of Santa.

Yes, much like with God.

Just be aware that Santa may not appreciate being tested. If you attempt to test him he may refuse to do anything to prove he exists or to prove he has supernatural powers.

I'm talking about Jesus. Yes, there have been plenty of investigations into the resurrection.

None of which have proven anything.

You'd think an adult would have caught Santa coming down their chimney by now.

Would you declare God to be imaginary just because no one has seen him physically?

Why the double standards?

At least you can visit Santa in a shopping mall!

The real Santa, no doubt has his methods of remaining undetected, just like God does. He would have to. Can you imagine Santa having to sneak around and avoid everyone on Christmas eve? He'd have parents and kids wanting to talk to him. He'd never be able to get around all those houses in one night. It would be crucial for Santa to have some supernatural way to remain undetected - so that no one would ever catch him climbing down the chimney.

Remember, when the supernatural is involved, anything is possible. Just like with God.

Is it a historical fact that Santa existed and that he did supernatural acts like in the case of Jesus?

As much historical fact as there is that Jesus did supernatural acts. Simply just unverified tales. At least the author of the "Night before Christmas" can be identified!

I'm willing to believe by faith though. Even Jesus would commend me on that.

It is a fact that people witnessed Jesus doing supernatural act. This is from Celsus a pagan philosopher, from the 2nd century AD

Someone who wasn't even around when Jesus was alive? How could he possibly be a witness? Yet more hearsay, just like with the bible.

Go check out that webpage I posted and you will see that people witnessed St Nick doing supernatural acts.

[zjsd26]

Heaven right now is called Paradise.

Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.

Paradise is only Temporary. Jesus will take Paradise in put on the earth. His Kingdom will reign here, after the last days.

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea

Isaiah 66:22
As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me, declares the Lord, so will your name and descendants endure.


The difference between Paradise and the New Heaven and New Earth, is that in Paradise our souls only go their, but in the New Earth, our bodies and souls will reunite, and we will be glorified like the Saints, 1. Cor. 15:51-54.

[onewithhim]

Heaven right now is called Paradise.

Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.

Paradise is only Temporary. Jesus will take Paradise in put on the earth. His Kingdom will reign here, after the last days.

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea

Isaiah 66:22
As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me, declares the Lord, so will your name and descendants endure.


The difference between Paradise and the New Heaven and New Earth, is that in Paradise our souls only go their, but in the New Earth, our bodies and souls will reunite, and we will be glorified like the Saints, 1. Cor. 15:51-54.

No, the Paradise Jesus was referring to is the earth. God created humans to live on this earth forever, and He hasn't changed His mind. If He did change His mind, where is it written? Surely He would've indicated to mankind that fact before the end of the story in Genesis.

Where do you get the idea that Jesus and the thief would be in paradise THAT VERY DAY? The comma is in the wrong place in most renderings. Jesus remained on the earth for 40 more days after his resurrection.

He will never reign ON the earth. The heavenly realm is so magnificent that to reduce it to a small place on Earth is well beyond the parameters of acceptability. Tell the people who are foisting on you that silliness that Jesus will "be with mankind," after the last days, here on the earth that he will be with us the same as he is "with" us NOW, as he said he would be at Matthew 28:20. How has he been with us through the centuries though still in heaven?

Our bodies won't be "reuniting" with our souls at any time. Our souls are US....everything about us, including our bodies. Adam BECAME a living soul, he wasn't given one. There is nothing that separates from our bodies at death, except the spirit of God that keeps us alive. That spirit is His power to give life and maintain it.

King Solomon wrote that "the dead know nothing at all," (Ecclesiastes 9:5) and even in the N.T. Jesus and the Apostles spoke of "sleeping" in death (John 11:11-14; I Corinthians 11:30; I Thess.4:13). So we don't go anywhere when we die. We wait until the Resurrection, when Jesus will call us out of our graves (John 5:28). Then we will have the privilege of the possibility of living on this earth forever.


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[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 345 by onewithhim]

If He did change His mind, where is it written? Surely He would've indicated to mankind that fact before the end of the story in Genesis.

Surely he would've indicated to Adam the consequences towards mankind of eating the fruit, of DNA, before the end of the story in Genesis...

He will never reign ON the earth.

Zechariah 9 Verse 10 would disagree.

How has he been with us through the centuries though still in heaven?

Simple. He's Jesus, the Son of God. He has magical God powers. He can teleport all over the world, constantly if need be.

Tell the people who are foisting on you that silliness

It always amazes me that one Christian will tell another Christian that their own beliefs are a 'silliness'...

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 345 by onewithhim]

If He did change His mind, where is it written? Surely He would've indicated to mankind that fact before the end of the story in Genesis.

Surely he would've indicated to Adam the consequences towards mankind of eating the fruit, of DNA, before the end of the story in Genesis...

He will never reign ON the earth.

Zechariah 9 Verse 10 would disagree.

How has he been with us through the centuries though still in heaven?

Simple. He's Jesus, the Son of God. He has magical God powers. He can teleport all over the world, constantly if need be.

Tell the people who are foisting on you that silliness

It always amazes me that one Christian will tell another Christian that their own beliefs are a 'silliness'...

I merely ask that you THINK about what is being said. Why do you resist the idea that God probably told Adam much more than what is written down in Genesis? Do you really think that what is recorded there is ALL that Jehovah said to Adam?

I don't see your point, looking at Zechariah 9:10.

Jesus does have powerful abilities. However, why go beyond what the Scriptures actually say? Many, many verses throughout the Bible say that Jesus, the Son of man, the Son of God, is an inhabitant of heaven. Over and over again he is said to be at the right hand of God, which is in heaven. He surely can influence the goings-on of his followers who are on the earth, from heaven....just like Jehovah has always been involved with the earth from heaven. Why do you feel that Jesus MUST be physically present on the planet to have an influence on people?

He said he would be WITH his disciples here on Earth from the first century on through to his Thousand-Year Reign. (Matt.28:20) If he is already here, why does it say in Revelation that he and God will, in the FUTURE, "come down out of heaven...and will live with mankind"? (Rev.21:2,3) Obviously Jesus and God can be "with" mankind in another sense. They are "with" us in the sense that they are focusing on mankind and its travails, and will soon cause all problems to cease. They don't have to LEAVE heaven to do this.


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[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 347 by onewithhim]

I merely ask that you THINK about what is being said. Why do you resist the idea that God probably told Adam much more than what is written down in Genesis?

If I give credence to what you suggest was told to Adam (DNA, the consequences of eating the fruit would also happen to his progeny), all without any textual support (and much to indicate that no-one who authored a book in the Bible understood anything about genetics)...what then do I say to the next person who comes along who suggests that Adam was told about...say Batman? Or global warming? Or {insert topic here}?

Your suggestion is without ANY merit, because there is nothing in the text that indicates Adam was told about DNA. Nothing at all. I reject your claim BECAUSE it is unsupported.

Do you really think that what is recorded there is ALL that Jehovah said to Adam?

While I honestly believe Adam is a fictional character, supposing for a moment that he wasn't, I have no opinion on that matter. Jehovah may or may not have said other things to Adam 'offscreen', but any person's claim that Adam was told X would be without evidence.
Just because Jehovah could have told Adam about genetics is no indication that he did.

I don't see your point, looking at Zechariah 9:10.

You said in an earlier comment that Jesus wouldn't rule ON the Earth (you even capitalized on) and the verse I pointed out to you says (from the NWT)
His rulership will be from sea to sea
And from the River* to the ends of the earth.
(This is assuming of course that Zechariah is prophesying Jesus Christ as Zion's King)

Jesus does have powerful abilities. However, why go beyond what the Scriptures actually say?

Why go beyond what the Scriptures say indeed...do I have to explain what I mean here?

Many, many verses throughout the Bible say that Jesus, the Son of man, the Son of God, is an inhabitant of heaven.

People here on Earth are able to have their main abode be at one place, but travel and work in other places.

Over and over again he is said to be at the right hand of God, which is in heaven.

Is he bound there for all eternity? Is he a prisoner of that position, unable to leave God's right hand? What if he wants to pop back down to Earth for a vacation?

Why do you feel that Jesus MUST be physically present on the planet to have an influence on people?

Nothing I have said indicates that I feel Jesus MUST be physically present to have an influence. I don't believe he's still alive remember?
What I'm saying though is that if I grant what many people (such as yourself) say Jesus is able to do, that includes teleportation. That includes being able to be with people, whether physically or spiritually.

He said he would be WITH his disciples here on Earth from the first century on through to his Thousand-Year Reign.

Did he? Is there any other possible interpretation of the verse you're indicating here?

If he is already here, why does it say in Revelation that he and God will, in the FUTURE, "come down out of heaven...and will live with mankind"? (Rev.21:2,3) Obviously Jesus and God can be "with" mankind in another sense. They are "with" us in the sense that they are focusing on mankind and its travails, and will soon cause all problems to cease. They don't have to LEAVE heaven to do this.

Let's say a rich businessman lives in Texas. He finances the construction of a new home and a new office he'll be working in, in New York. He indicates that when all is said and done, he'll be living in New York and working there.
Is there anything at all that would prevent him from going to New York during the construction period from time to time, from staying in a hotel during those trips? Does his declaration of where his future home will be mean he cannot leave Texas during that time period?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 347 by onewithhim]

I merely ask that you THINK about what is being said. Why do you resist the idea that God probably told Adam much more than what is written down in Genesis?

If I give credence to what you suggest was told to Adam (DNA, the consequences of eating the fruit would also happen to his progeny), all without any textual support (and much to indicate that no-one who authored a book in the Bible understood anything about genetics)...what then do I say to the next person who comes along who suggests that Adam was told about...say Batman? Or global warming? Or {insert topic here}?

Your suggestion is without ANY merit, because there is nothing in the text that indicates Adam was told about DNA. Nothing at all. I reject your claim BECAUSE it is unsupported.

Do you really think that what is recorded there is ALL that Jehovah said to Adam?

While I honestly believe Adam is a fictional character, supposing for a moment that he wasn't, I have no opinion on that matter. Jehovah may or may not have said other things to Adam 'offscreen', but any person's claim that Adam was told X would be without evidence.
Just because Jehovah could have told Adam about genetics is no indication that he did.

I don't see your point, looking at Zechariah 9:10.

You said in an earlier comment that Jesus wouldn't rule ON the Earth (you even capitalized on) and the verse I pointed out to you says (from the NWT)
His rulership will be from sea to sea
And from the River* to the ends of the earth.
(This is assuming of course that Zechariah is prophesying Jesus Christ as Zion's King)

Jesus does have powerful abilities. However, why go beyond what the Scriptures actually say?

Why go beyond what the Scriptures say indeed...do I have to explain what I mean here?

Many, many verses throughout the Bible say that Jesus, the Son of man, the Son of God, is an inhabitant of heaven.

People here on Earth are able to have their main abode be at one place, but travel and work in other places.

Over and over again he is said to be at the right hand of God, which is in heaven.

Is he bound there for all eternity? Is he a prisoner of that position, unable to leave God's right hand? What if he wants to pop back down to Earth for a vacation?

Why do you feel that Jesus MUST be physically present on the planet to have an influence on people?

Nothing I have said indicates that I feel Jesus MUST be physically present to have an influence. I don't believe he's still alive remember?
What I'm saying though is that if I grant what many people (such as yourself) say Jesus is able to do, that includes teleportation. That includes being able to be with people, whether physically or spiritually.

He said he would be WITH his disciples here on Earth from the first century on through to his Thousand-Year Reign.

Did he? Is there any other possible interpretation of the verse you're indicating here?

If he is already here, why does it say in Revelation that he and God will, in the FUTURE, "come down out of heaven...and will live with mankind"? (Rev.21:2,3) Obviously Jesus and God can be "with" mankind in another sense. They are "with" us in the sense that they are focusing on mankind and its travails, and will soon cause all problems to cease. They don't have to LEAVE heaven to do this.

Let's say a rich businessman lives in Texas. He finances the construction of a new home and a new office he'll be working in, in New York. He indicates that when all is said and done, he'll be living in New York and working there.
Is there anything at all that would prevent him from going to New York during the construction period from time to time, from staying in a hotel during those trips? Does his declaration of where his future home will be mean he cannot leave Texas during that time period?

OK. We'll consider that all of the things said to Adam by Jehovah in all the years that they were friends, before Eve came into the picture, were trivial, inconsequential. Fine. They just talked about how cute the names were that Adam gave to the animals.

Sorry, I didn't read far enough in that verse in Zechariah! I had it marked off as important, but when I looked for it I just saw the first half of the verse, because it looked like another verse entirely.

Now, does that verse show that Jesus must be ON the earth to rule over it? I think that he can rule just fine from heaven. Hasn't Jehovah had great influence over the earth's goings-on, and yet He has always been in heaven?


Great verse, though! It shows, once again, that people will be living on the earth.....not everybody will be in heaven.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 349 by onewithhim]

We'll consider that all of the things said to Adam by Jehovah in all the years that they were friends, before Eve came into the picture, were trivial, inconsequential.

I'm not saying that. Jehovah may have said things to Adam that were trivial or important.
Just that if you (or anyone else) are going to say "Jehovah told Adam about ____", I want to see text that supports this. Not just you (general you) saying that Jehovah could have told Adam. I could PM you my credit card details. This doesn't mean that I did, or that there's any evidence that I ever did in the past.

Fine. They just talked about how cute the names were that Adam gave to the animals.

Assuming for a moment that the story in Genesis is true (for the sake of argument), what we can say we KNOW what was discussed is the following
1) Adam may eat from any tree he likes, except for one special tree.
2) If Adam eats from the special tree, on that day he will die
3) It is not good for a man to be alone, so God will make a helper for him, to complement him.
4) Jehovah allows Adam to name all the animals
5) Adam says why his mate is called Woman
6) Adam tells Jehovah that Woman gave him the fruit to eat
7) Adam says he was afraid to face Jehovah because he was naked
8) Jehovah then details the punishments that Adam, Eve and the snake receive

Anything else you or anyone else suggest was discussed between Adam and Jehovah is pure supposition. The person you are talking to (me in this instance) is at complete liberty to reject what you suppose through an application of Hitchen's Razor.

Now, does that verse show that Jesus must be ON the earth to rule over it?

Here is what you said earlier
He will never reign ON the earth.
This indicates to me that you think Jesus will not rule on or over the Earth, and yet Zechariah 9:10 indicates otherwise.