God's truth about hell

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from this short beginning exchange about hell and truth:


Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, Pinseeker.

What is it that makes them "truths" rather than "untruths", as you see them, in brief ?

What specifically makes them "very hard truths", do you think?

Pinseeker wrote

Hey, Checkpoint.

I guess the only way to answer the first question is, if God says it, it's true.

To the second, I would say "very hard truths" does not mean "very difficult-to-undertand truths." What I mean is, many people do not want to hear about hell, and/or do not want to accept God's truth about hell. It scares them, it offends them, it's obcene to them... etc. Even believers like me just... well, I shudder at it. It... well, it scares the H-E-double-toothpick out of me. But it's important, even vital to our understanding of the Gospel. Take a look at this if you want:

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/hell/[/quote]

Checkpoint responded

Ah yes Pinseeker, what you say here raises questions rather than gives answers, in my opinion.

1) Do we really grasp what "God's truth about hell" actually is?

2) In what way is it "important, even vital, to our understanding of the Gospel"?

3) Why is there such strong, even visceral, reaction to "God's truth about hell", so often expressed by both believers and unbelievers?

4) Who, or what, is being questioned here? God, or the Bible, or an interpretation?

Please discuss, debate, and/or give your answer to any of these questions, or just comment or make an observation.

[PinSeeker]

I'm pretty sure that sleep is a euphemism (a soft word) for the harsh reality of death because neither death nor sleep are permanent when we count in the resurrection.

Regarding the body (not the spirit) and the first (physical) death, yes.

But death is certainly permanent for those who suffer the second death.

But cessation of existence is true of neither the first death [where the physical body is separated from the spirit and both are separated from temporal life on earth, which is pre-Judgment] nor the second death [where the spirit and the body are reunited for all in the resurrection, and the wicked as a result of the Judgment are separated permanently from Jesus, the people God has given Him, and the New Heaven and New Earth]. This is death in the Bible: a separation.

I will say that just describing it as a separation sounds very mild, but Biblically, it's most assuredly not mild. At all.

At any rate, God is not inconsistent, as many inadvertently make Him out to be. Rather, He is perfect in faithfulness, justice, and holiness.

Grace and peace to all.

[PinSeeker]

I cannot recall the second death ever being described as a sleep, though.

Yes, that would be because it's not described that way. I agree. But Daniel does tell us the following:

• "...many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

This shame that they experience and the everlasting contempt in which they are held is most certainly not fleeting, momentary, or even temporary, as some might have it.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

MY bias that we are spirits, created by GOD in HIS image, who have been given a body here on earth that will die when the spirit leaves it and it goes to the grave (the state of decay whether in the ground or not) but the spirit does not 'die'. This is supported to my mind by our return to Sheol, the place of the waiting disembodied and by the fact it is written we are sown, planted here into the world (implying being somewhere else before our being planted), not created here, since the devil sows also.

Hi Charles.

Mankind was created "a little lower than the angels." Upon eating from the tree of knowledge, man became closer to the angels in that we understood good from evil.

Man was then ejected from the Garden of Eden so that he could not eat from the tree of life and live forever -- like the angels.

Jesus states that man must be born again of the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God.

When born again of the spirit, believers will become "equal unto the angels."

Therefore, there were originally two differences between man and the angels -- knowledge of good and evil, and longevity.

Now there is only one difference -- longevity.

Longevity is determined by body type.

There are two type of bodies -- natural and spiritual, and each requires a separate and unique birth. That which is born of the flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Man is born of the flesh and has no preeminence over any other physical animal. All were made from dust and all will return to dust.

Man is different in that man is capable of gaining everlasting life.

That everlasting life is not a natural or physical life as physical mankind are limited to only about 120 years.

Humans who believe in Jesus will be born again of the Spirit as everlasting spiritual bodied beings.

So no human is born with a spiritual body.

Regarding believers, Paul writes that the natural body comes first, and the spiritual body comes last.

And they are never said to mix or overlap. That concept is ridiculous. Why would any spiritual bodied being desire any characteristics of a natural body?

Regarding death, all mankind (believers & nonbelievers) are appointed to die the first death.

Likewise, all mankind will be resurrected to life again.

Since true death is everlasting, the scriptures often speak of man's first "death" as sleep, slumber, or rest -- as it is not permanent.

Believers will be raised to everlasting spiritual bodied life at the Second Coming.

Nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years later as humans once again and face judgment.

Following judgment, those whose names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire and suffer their second and everlasting physical death.

They are gone, nonexistent, conscious of nothing for all eternity.

Annihilated, if you prefer that term.

And that was by their choice.

[Checkpoint]

[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 40#1007840]


Checkpoint wrote:

What you have conveyed to me is that being made in the image and likeness of God includes being made with innate "eternality" or self-existence.

Pinseeker replied:

Mmmm... Well, I don't like your use of the term "self-existence," really. But maybe that's neither here nor there; if you mean that in the same way as you would "existence," then okay.

[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 40#1007840]

Checkpoint wrote:

Please quote where this is plainly and clearly stated in Genesis 1.

Pinseeker answered:

I think this is asking for too much, Checkpoint. There is no "quote," as in "those exact words," but that doesn't then mean it's not clearly there in verses 26 and 27 of chapter 1. And in Genesis 2:7, by the way. Perhaps that's not what you mean.

Thank you for this answer..

Too much for you on this occasion, because you are unable to deliver, but not too much to ask any poster any time, on any verses.

Anyone unable to deliver can claim, "but that doesn't mean it's not clearly there", but that is no more than opinion, even if strongly held by many.

[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 40#1007840]

Checkpoint wrote:

Or explain how and why you have drawn that conclusion from what Genesis 1 says.

Pinseeker replied:

This, however, is reasonable and fair. As I explained before, I believe our eternity-future existence is a direct result of our having been created in God's image. Being created in God's image entails many things, but this is one of them. Again, I said this before, so that shouldn't be new information to you.

I'll add to that here, though. What is often unclear in one Bible passage is made clearer in or by (or both) another, or in/by several other passages collectively. I think you agree with that. Perhaps not, but to that end:

In 2 Corinthians, Paul speaks of the outward man and the inward man (4:16). These two expressions contrast the physical body with the spirit. And in the same context, the Paul distinguishes between that which is temporal and that which is eternal. The implication is clearly that the inward man, i.e., the spirit, is eternal. Not that it has existed forever, as is the case with God the Father (and the Son, and the Holy Spirit), but rather, from the commencement of its creation, it partakes of the nature of an everlasting entity in the image of God. Paul also says:

• "For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." [2 Cor. 5:1]
  
  "Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace..." [2 Thess. 2:16]

All of this is directly a result of being created in His image. Now, you may say, "But PinSeeker, Paul is only talking about believers in both of those places!" Well, yes, he is. But all men were and are created in His image. And I would answer that objection in much the same way as I explained that when the crucified Christ said to the thief on His right, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise," He was not by implication saying to the thief on His left that he would no longer exist, but rather that he would not be with Him in paradise but still existing in the same manner as the one on His right but... somewhere else.

Thank you, too, for this answer.

It is an example of where the rubber meets the road, Pinseeker.

If this is your best shot...

All passages you cited or used, are from the New Testament, none are about or refer to God's image or likeness, or to the Judgment, to "hell", or to "eternal existence" (or its lack).

Jesus was not saying anything to the other crucified criminal, by implication or otherwise.

What you intimated was a total reflection of your own assumptions.

What this post of yours confirms and demonstrates is that you have absolutely nothing of substance to support the opinion and assumption that us being created in God's image means He created us as eternally existent beings.

May the Lord bless and keep you.

[PinSeeker]

What this post of yours confirms and demonstrates is that you have absolutely nothing of substance to support the opinion and assumption that us being created in God's image means He created us as eternally existent beings.

In your opinion. I mean, you can't really say that I "haven't demonstrated it," or that I "have nothing of substance," but only that the demonstrations and substance I have presented at least to this point are not personally convincing to you and that you therefore deem them insufficient to change your view. But sure, that's what we do as thinkers; we form opinions and judgments concerning others' views based on what we see and hear -- verbal (and non-verbal) demonstrations (both intentional and unintentional). At any rate, I knew that would be the case before I crafted any kind of response; you already had your opinion, and it wasn't going to change, at least least not publically.

So, we know and agree on these two things, 1.) that God is eternally existent, and 2.) that God created us in His image. I'll readily accept and acknowledge that it is my understanding/opinion... which I believe to be well-grounded in Scripture, which I have demonstrated... that the aforementioned two agreed-upon truths together necessarily mean, among other things, that all human beings will exist into eternity future as God will/does. I certainly am nowhere close to being alone in this view regarding either the past or the present and I'm sure into the future.

I also readily accept and acknowledge that my understanding/opinion is contrary to yours. In my humble opinion, you're not thinking things through. Now, that is most assuredly not to say that you're "lazy," or "lacking in intelligence," or anything of the sort. But I do believe you're not thinking things through. Perhaps you think I am over-thinking things, and that's fine.

Surely we can leave it there and part in peace.

Grace and peace to you, Checkpoint.

[Checkpoint]

What this post of yours confirms and demonstrates is that you have absolutely nothing of substance to support the opinion and assumption that us being created in God's image means He created us as eternally existent beings.

In your opinion. I mean, you can't really say that I "haven't demonstrated it," or that I "have nothing of substance," but only that the demonstrations and substance I have presented at least to this point are not personally convincing to you and that you therefore deem them insufficient to change your view. But sure, that's what we do as thinkers; we form opinions and judgments concerning others' views based on what we see and hear -- verbal (and non-verbal) demonstrations (both intentional and unintentional). At any rate, I knew that would be the case before I crafted any kind of response; you already had your opinion, and it wasn't going to change, at least least not publically.

So, we know and agree on these two things, 1.) that God is eternally existent, and 2.) that God created us in His image. I'll readily accept and acknowledge that it is my understanding/opinion... which I believe to be well-grounded in Scripture, which I have demonstrated... that the aforementioned two agreed-upon truths together necessarily mean, among other things, that all human beings will exist into eternity future as God will say that you're "lazy," or "lacking in intelligence," or anything of the sort. But I do believe'r youe not thinking things through. Perhaps you think I am over-thinking things, and that's fine.

Perhaps not, Pinseeker.

No, you are not "over-thinking things", but rather, you are under-thinking things.

No, it is not me who is "not thinking things through"; that is you, at least on this issue!

For example, reconsider the following from you:

So, we know and agree on these two things, 1.) that God is eternally existent, and 2.) that God created us in His image. I'll readily accept and acknowledge that it is my understanding/opinion... which I believe to be well-grounded in Scripture, which I have demonstrated...ill/does. I certainly am nowhere close to being alone in this view regarding either the past or the present and I'm sure into the future.

I also readily accept and acknowledge that my understanding/opinion is contrary to yours. In my humble opinion, you're not thinking things through. Now, that is most assuredly not to that the aforementioned two agreed-upon truths together necessarily mean, among other things, that all human beings will exist into eternity future as God will/does. I certainly am nowhere close to being alone in this view regarding either the past or the present and I'm sure into the future.

God is not merely "eternally existent", He is THE ETERNAL. That is, the one and only, the unique One, who has always been, who had no beginning and will have no end.

Being fully eternal is just one of His unique attributes, all of which, even any of which, make Him totally incomparable.

God does not, however, have so-called "eternal existence", which is a concept or wording invented to create something someone sometime needed to bolster their extra-biblical assumptions.

The Bible does not demean God by calling Him "existent", or call man "existent" because God made man in His image.

Nowhere in Scripture are we plainly and clearly told just what "made in His image specifically means, and/or just what it includes and/or excludes.

None of us, therefore, are in any position to claim:

" ... that the aforementioned two agreed-upon truths together necessarily mean, among other things, that all human beings will exist into eternity future."

Putting any "two truths together" does not necessarily mean anything if either of them are not clear and specific.

Surely we can leave it there and part in peace.

I wish. Surely, yes, but not yet!


God bless you, Pinseeker.

[PinSeeker]

Perhaps not, Pinseeker.

LOL! Well of course not. What was I thinking?

No, you are not "over-thinking things", but rather, you are under-thinking things. No, it is not me who is "not thinking things through"; that is you, at least on this issue!

Sure, say the same thing I just said to you. Sure. Yes, I know that's what you think.

God is not merely "eternally existent", He is THE ETERNAL. That is, the one and only, the unique One, who has always been, who had no beginning and will have no end. Being fully eternal is just one of His unique attributes, all of which, even any of which, make Him totally incomparable.

Sure He is. He is the great I AM. Who made us in His image, for His glory. You are actually making my point for me. Thank you for that. Now if you would just listen to yourself...

God does not, however, have so-called "eternal existence", which is a concept or wording invented to create something someone sometime needed to bolster their extra-biblical assumptions.

LOL! So, you just said, "God is not merely 'eternally existent,' " -- your implication being that he is eternally existent, and now you say "God does not, however, have so-called "eternal existence." Do you realize you just said, in effect, that two diametrically opposed things -- 'A' and 'Not A' -- are true? Come on, man.

Checkpoint, it is a basic Christian belief that God exists eternally. You know this as well as I do. From everlasting to everlasting. From eternity past to eternity future. He is outside of time, which is part of His creation, existing in what we call "the eternal now." At any point in our time, He is. It's not "extra-biblical" in any way. David, in Psalm 93:2, says, "Your throne is established from of old; you are from everlasting." God's steadfast love is from everlasting to everlasting, His way is everlasting, His covenant with Israel is everlasting, He is to be blessed from everlasting to everlasting, His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom... and that's just a small sampling from various Psalms. I mean, I invite you to do a word search on 'everlasting.' The LORD GOD is an everlasting rock, the LORD is the everlasting God, Israel is saved by the LORD with everlasting salvation, His love is everlasting, the LORD is our everlasting light, the LORD is the true God; he is the living God and the everlasting King... and that's just a small sampling from Isaiah. No Christian theologian worth any salt at all would claim otherwise. Surely you don't mean what you just said here. Surely. Wow.

The Bible does not demean God by calling Him "existent"...

His very name -- I am that I am -- means He is eternally existent (and unchanging), Checkpoint.

...or call man "existent" because God made man in His image.

Who's saying this? Not me. Man is "existent" because God created him. What I'm saying -- and yes, I know you unfortunately disagree is that we (our inner self, the inner man, as Paul says, our spirit) are (is) eternally existent going forward because we are made in the image of our God, Who is spirit.

Nowhere in Scripture are we plainly and clearly told just what "made in His image specifically means, and/or just what it includes and/or excludes.

And I say we are plainly and clearly told, that all we need to know is there, but the only problem is our discernment (or lack thereof) concerning what we've been given. And what we've been given is not short in anyway from God's perspective, but only possibly from ours. Thank God He has given us His Spirit, Who is our Helper, Who teaches us all things and brings to our remembrance all that Christ has said to us.

None of us, therefore, are in any position to claim:

" ... that the aforementioned two agreed-upon truths together necessarily mean, among other things, that all human beings will exist into eternity future."

Yeah disagree. But you knew that. So why press it any further?

Putting any "two truths together" does not necessarily mean anything if either of them are not clear and specific.

I say they are most definitely clear and specific. At least you agree on the two truths I presented. Maybe the Spirit will someday help you put the two together.

Surely we can leave it there and part in peace.

I wish. Surely, yes, but not yet!

Well sure, because you can't let it go. Wow.

God bless you, Pinseeker.

And you too, Checkpoint. Grace and peace to you.

[Charles]

Mankind was created "a little lower than the angels."

The problem with this is that there is nothing in the verse about creating or making man lower. It is there in every translation as people try to make sense of the Hebrew but it is not in the Hebrew. And everyone who interprets this verse explains it from their own bias of our being created on this earth.

It says man IS lower than the angels which could be because they were lowered by their own free will decision to be sinful, not by their creation as if as a separate race. Only sinners are sowed, planted, not created, into mankind, Matt 13:36-39.

[tam]

Peace to you all,


Just a quick note on angels (seraphs) and immortality (human or seraph). Immortal does not mean that a being cannot be killed or destroyed (God cannot be destroyed of course - He IS the consuming fire; nor Christ, who is the Life and the Tree of Life). Immortal just means that a being will not die of "natural causes".

[myth-one.com]

Nowhere in Scripture are we plainly and clearly told just what "made in His image" specifically means, and/or just what it includes and/or excludes.

The problem with this is that there is nothing in the verse about creating or making man lower.

=============================================

Actually, the scriptures specifically state the ways in which man was made lower than the angels!

Upon eating from the tree of knowledge, man became closer to the angels in that we understood good from evil:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: . . .

God is speaking, and is comparing man's learning good from evil to a characteristic of Himself and "us."

So "us" includes God and other god like beings.

If Man has just learned good from evil at this point, then he was not created knowing good from evil.

So that is one way in which man was made a "little lower than the angels."

===============================================

Then, in the New Testament, Jesus states that man must be born again of the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God:

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Two type of bodies are defined in the scriptures:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

Each of these body types require a unique and separate type of birth:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

We have already been born of the flesh as humans into the physical world.

To enter into the spiritual Kingdom of God, we must be born again as a spirit into the spiritual world.

When born again of the spirit, believers will become "equal unto the angels." Luke puts it this way:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; . . .

So if we became like the gods by eating from the tree of knowledge and learning good from evil; and the one remaining thing we must do to become equal unto the angels is to be born again of the Spirit; then we were created originally with only TWO differences between us and the angels.

And those two differences were knowledge of good and evil and body type -- natural versus spiritual.

Adam and Eve were not ejected from the Garden of Eden because they sinned!

They were ejected to separate them from the Tree of Life so they could not eat of its fruit and become equal unto the angels:

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)

Had we eaten from the Tree of Life, mankind would have joined the Kingdom of God at that time.