Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[RightReason]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

I will remind you that the scripture under discussion is Ecc 1:4 the arguementation being that it was in fact referring to the literal planet. The supporting evidence for the correct application of the the notion of eternal being ( Psalm 37:29 and 104:5, Proverbs 2:21, 22, and Isaiah 65)

I see no reference or counterargument to the above.

Really? Scroll up. It’s all there. I’ve addressed this already, but once again . . .

“remains or abides forever� does not imply external existence for the planet. The Hebrew word rendered “forever� simply means a long period of time. The Hebrew phrase forever often signifies a periodical perpetuity, a long indefinite time, not an infinite. The same word is used in reference to other things which are not eternal in duration . . .

the land promise (Genesis ), circumcision (17:13), the Passover feast (Ex. 12:14), the priesthood of Aaron (Ex. 29:9), the Sabbath Day (Ex. 31:16-17). The word "forever" was rightly used of such things, because all these things lasted during the entire age for which they were designed. The earth is the permanent ground or scene on which all generations will come and go. This is the permanent stage for man"s physical history. But one day that stage will be removed (2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:11)


https://www.studylight.org/commentary/e ... s/1-4.html

The Jehovah’s Witnesses contend that “this earth was created, not to be destroyed, but to be inhabited forever by righteous, perfect men and women� (Let God Be True, p. 264). They appeal to such passages as Ecciesiastes 1:4, “. . . the earth abideth for ever� (cf. Psalm 78:69). What they fail to perceive, however, is that the term “for ever� does not always denote an absolutely endless existence. The Hebrew word olam basically means “age-lasting.� It is employed to describe the duration of the Passover, and the Levitical priesthood (Exodus 12:14; Numbers 25:13), both of which lasted only as long as the Mosaic economy. These references should be entered in the margin of your Bible in connection with Ecclesiastes 1:4 and Psalm 78:69.
Too, note this interesting passage. In Isaiah 32, the prophet of God depicts the horrible punishment that is to be visited upon Jerusalem (the capital city of Judah) on account of the nation’s transgressions. He says the holy city will be deserted and become the haunts of animals “for ever� (v. 14). Yet, in the very next verse, he declares that these conditions will prevail only “until the Spirit be poured upon us from on high,� (a prophecy of the blessings of the gospel age – cf. Joel 2:28ff). Underline the term “for ever� in verse 14, and then mark the word “until� in verse 15. Connect them. The latter word clearly shows that “for ever� can be used in a qualified sense. The context must determine the meaning in a given setting.
The earth will not literally last for ever. In Ecclesiastes 1:4, etc., the expression is used relatively. The New Testament makes it quite plain that the material universe will be destroyed eventually (cf. Matthew 24:35; 2 Peter 3:5-13).
https://www.christiancourier.com/articl ... es-forever

And this again too . . .

The Watchtower cites Scriptural passages which they feel imply that the earth will last forever (“Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever�. –Ecc 1:4), and that the righteous will always inhabit it. However, one must be careful to read the quoted passages in context. Often they refer to the return of the Jews from the captivity of Babylon and Egypt. Other times, as in Psalms 67 and 72, they refer to blessings bestowed upon the king. In contrast, the Bible proclaims that His Kingdom is not of this world (Jn 18:36). Neither will ours be.


The JWs attempt to use verses such as Psalms 37:29 as evidence that the just are to inherit the land forever, which is earth. In context, this refers to inheriting the promised land as a sign of God’s blessing in the Old Testament. But, Hebrews 11:8-16 indicates that there is a homeland better than the promised land on earth, and this is the heavenly one for those who die in faith. The Old Testament patriarchs "publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land . . . they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. . . . But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. . . . God . . . has made a city ready for them. . . .These [OT men and women] did not get the [fulfillment of the] promise . . . as God foresaw something better for us" (Heb. 11:13-16,39-40). Even the footnote of the NWT makes clear that the "city" spoken of in these verses is the heavenly Jerusalem mentioned in Hebrews 12:22 and Revelation 21:2. But, the Watchtower still maintains that no one that lived before Christ will ever enter heaven. "The apostle Paul in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews names a long list of faithful men who died before the crucifixion of the Lord. . . . These can never be a part of the heavenly class" (Millions Now Living, p. 89). Only the 144,000 elite that all lived after the death of Christ will supposedly go to heaven. Matthew 8:11-12 provides severe difficulties for this idea, since Jesus proclaims, "many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be." No verse could be clearer in declaring that the patriarchs are in heaven. The following verses all demonstrate that Christians go to heaven, and do not remain on earth: 2 Corinthians 5:1; Hebrews 3:1; Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 1:4-5; 1 Peter 1:4.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/witwatch.htm

please be well and have a most excellent day

You too. Sorry if I give abrupt responses sometimes. I only get to this on a few of my breaks during the day, even though I would love to discuss things like this more often. I also do not see the point of retyping and posting things have been asked and answered many times before. I realize it might be the first time a particular person is asking something, but keep in mind it may be the 100th time I've had to respond to that same question from someone else and lots of times I like to link what someone else I have researched and respected said about the topic -- that way the person asking the question gets a fuller more thought out response and ensures I might not leave something out in trying to respond quickly.

Long story short -- I admit I am reading posts quickly due to time restraints and apologize if I miss something, but am quite confident JW miss the mark and Christ's established Church on earth is the Catholic Church. I found nothing else to make sense.

[JehovahsWitness]

Really? Scroll up. It’s all there. I’ve addressed this already,

No, that was your post # 367 were you point out (correctly) that one Hebrew term (olam) translated often as “forever� simply means a long period of time. To which I replied with an extensive post # 369 with scriptural support explaining the existence of another Hebrew term that does indeed mean "forever" along with the rationale for our conclusions regarding Ecclesiastes.

Do you have a reply regarding the use the Hebrew word ʽadh, as it appears in the scriptures I referred to, as well as an explanation as to why you conclude (if you do) that Ecclesiastes 1:4 is not refering to the literal planet?

If you don't that's fine but I am fully aware that up til now you have not presented a counterargument to my post # 369 and made no mention of the Hebrew I pointed out to you.

Your walls of irrelevant text will continued to be ignored.

Peace out,

JW

[RightReason]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Interesting that you think your post is any kind of support for your position. When we look at the various words that were translated ‘forever’ there are a few and it is shown even those words had different meanings depending on context. In fact, apparently he Hebrew language does not have a word for eternal, but rather uses other words to alude to eternal, or ever lasting. Most Biblical scholars, historians and theologians agree the Hebrew translation for the word ‘forever’ in Scripture refers to a duration or long period of time.

The Hebrew root word for “forever� in Ecclesiastes 1:4 — עוֹלָ� (o-lawm’) — can indeed be translated as forever; however, it can also be translated as a “long duration [1].� In addition, in the Septuagint (which is a Greek translation of the Hebrew / Aramaic Old Testament into Greek from ca. the third century B.C.), the Greek root word used in this verse is αἰών (ahee-ohn’); it likewise can be translated as “forever,� but properly means “an age� [2]. The word has been transliterated into English as “aeon� which means “a long or seemingly long period of time� [3].

Therefore, Ecclesiastes 1:4 is most likely better translated as follows:

“One generation passes away, and another generation comes; but the earth abides for a long period of time (much longer than that of many generations of people).�

https://michaelcjbradford.wordpress.com/tag/earth/

You suggest the only thing to do is conclude ‘forever’ in Ecc 1:4 must mean eternal because you have chosen to apply the word adh (even though every time I look up the Hebrew translation for 'forever' in Ecc 1:4 the word olam comes up) which you declare means everlasting and conclude the earth will be our eternal home, even though there is also contradicting Scripture saying the earth shall pass away. I’m afraid you posting it with a beautiful picture of planet Earth and some eye appealing Q & A format doesn’t change the fact a literal planet earth is not a logical conclusion to make.

** Also, please tell me again who gave Charles Taze Russell and 5 of his friends authority to interpret Sacred Scripture?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 383 by RightReason]

I STILL see no reference to - or even acknowledgement of - the Hebrew word (adh #5703) in your reply nor any argumentation as to its relevance in scripture. Are you deliberately avoiding it? Or are you suggesting this particular word does not exist?


Congratulations for slimming your posts down and cutting out the irrelevant verbage (I only had to ignore a paragraph or two this time) but you are still failing to actually address the points I made. Are you able to do so or is repeating your original point (and ignoring the points in my detailed response) the way you are thinking of going?

Feel free to re-read the last two paragraphs of my post HERE if you are confused as to what to respond to.





JW

[RightReason]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

{quote]I STILL see no reference to - or even acknowledgment of - the Hebrew word (adh #5703) in your reply nor any argumentation as to its relevance in scripture. Are you deliberately avoiding it? Or are you suggesting this particular word does not exist? [/quote]

Then you didn't read my post very well. I mentioned and acknowledged the word. It's funny though when one tries to find out more about the word the only places it shows up is on Watchtower websites -- interesting that. Every other Biblical scholar includes the word adh along with the word olam and emphasizes that the Hebrew translation for the word 'forever' can have a variety of interpretations -- some being everlasting or eternal, but more often than not many being duration of time or a long period of time. So although the passage you cite could mean eternal there is no evidence that it does in this case other than you declaring it so. JW's often insist their created theology makes sense if we use the meaning of the word they think should be used. In fact their contrived theology demands it.

[JehovahsWitness]

I mentioned and acknowledged the word.

Hardly a solid counterargument to admit the word exist; especially when you imply some nameless "scholars" have stated the word is always stated in conjunction with olham which it simply untrue. And even if it were if the meanings were identical doing so would be irrelevent. So apart from acknowledgement of the word and a vague and decidely questionable reference, you have thus far provided nothing convincing.

Feel free if you so wish to attempt to do better. What is your reply to the rationale and scriptures I presented, do you feel able to address them and present a counterargument if you have one. ie that I say xyz about this specific scripture but this cannot be right because of a-b-c and then offer if you feel able an alternative reading. As I said there were over 11 scriptures in the post none of which I see addressed in all your pointless rambling walls of text so far.

Respect,

JW

[RightReason]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

. . . especially when you imply some nameless "scholars"

Ha,ha,ha . . nameless scholars? Please share the names of the scholars who gave you the NWT? JW refuses to name the men who came up with the NWT, but ex JW’s have shared the information and turns out it was a few men who were not expert Biblical scholars. Oh, and who also did NOT have authority to do so.

there were over 11 scriptures in the post none of which I see addressed in all your pointless rambling walls of text so far.

<sigh> I did address some of these already, but I’ll walk you thru it point by point and then point out additional Scripture that contradicts JW theory . . .

No idea how you can claim Matt 6:10 – “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven� implies a literal planet earth. Absolutely none. Let me ask you this, is God’s will today done on earth as it is in heaven? I pray this for today, which is why one would pray this prayer every day. Soooooo . . . those words do not mean the planet earth will exist forever.

Psalm 37:29 (The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever) refers to the promised land, If the children of Israel remain faithful to the Covenant they will dwell from generation to generation in the land.

Also, in Phil 3:20-21, Rom 8 (esp. 16-17 and 24), and Mt 5:11-12, we are told that the followers of Christ are given the hope of heaven (not paradise on earth).

Psalm 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. This is obviously a hymn praising God who skillfully made the world which the people recognized would stand firm. As with much of Scripture the ‘it can never be moved’ can be said to be coming from a human perspective. It simply meant it will endure for as long as God wishes it to.

Proverbs 2:21, 22 For the upright will live in the land, and the blameless will remain in it;

Once again this proverb is speaking about upright and wicked people living in the land of Israel at that time. Proverbs are general wisdom also--not incontrovertible truths.

Isaiah 65

speaks about people building houses, planting and eating under the promised Messianic rule as well as enjoying the animal kingdom and peace reigning from "sea to sea" hardly references to a spiritual realm.

Really? The lion laying down with the lamb is not intended as a symbolic reference for a perfect spiritual realm? We see it differently.

And for you . . . the following verses all demonstrate that Christians go to heaven, and do not remain on earth: 2 Corinthians 5:1; Hebrews 3:1; Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 1:4-5; 1 Peter 1:4.
******************************************

Jesus never speaks of having two flocks, an earthly and heavenly class of followers. Jesus has one bride, and she is not divided into two camps. Those with their name in the book of life enter the New Jerusalem (Rv 21:27) and those whose names are not in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire (Rv 20:15). This does not leave room for a middle class. All of God’s people are together in the New Jerusalem, not part here and part there.

We are told by Paul in Philippians 3:20, "our citizenship is in heaven." Those who are occupied with what is earthly will "end in destruction" according to the prior verse.

We were created to see the face of God; as David wrote, "As the deer longs for streams of water, so my soul longs for you, O God. My being thirsts for God, the living God. When can I go and see the face of God?" (Ps 42).

In all charity, the Watchtower’s idea that all but the 144,000 will live in paradise apart from God for all eternity amounts to a promise of an eternal petting zoo instead of the Beatific Vision. You must reawaken in them the desire for the union with God promised to all in Christ Jesus.

https://www.catholic.com/qa/how-do-i-re ... the-144000

[JehovahsWitness]

“thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven�

So what was Jesus refering to when he said earth?

What was Jesus referring to when he said the word "heaven"?

Would it be a different heaven to that which he referred to where The Father is (our "Father who art in heaven")? Are they both refering to the same thing?

What is your reading to the opening lines here of the Lord's Prayer?

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 388 by JehovahsWitness]

So what was Jesus refering to when he said earth?

What was Jesus referring to when he said the word "heaven"?

Would it be a different heaven to that which he referred to where The Father is (our "Father who art in heaven")? Are they both refering to the same thing?

What is your reading to the opening lines here of the Lord's Prayer?

I pray the Our Father every day. The prayer says, “Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth and as it is in heaven.�

I have always understood this to mean God obviously resides in heaven (yes, of course He is everywhere, but you know what I mean) and He is our King and we are professing our belief that we know and believe His Kingdom is to come to fruition at some point, when we can all be together. And we are proclaiming that His will be done, here, now on earth, today for us, for all of mankind just like His will is done in heaven. We are essentially professing that we desire things to be done as He would want them to be done – not our will but His. By reciting the “Our Father� I am declaring that I want what He wants. I am acknowledging that not only does He reign in heaven, but I relinquish all control to Him for me here, now, today in my earthly life. By praying the “Our Father� I am begging Him that I be strong enough to accept His will in my life and of course the prayer goes on to request that God gives us what we need to be capable of following His will. “Give us our daily bread� we ask Him. Give us all that we will need for today.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 388 by JehovahsWitness]

So what was Jesus refering to when he said earth?

What was Jesus referring to when he said the word "heaven"?

Would it be a different heaven to that which he referred to where The Father is (our "Father who art in heaven")? Are they both refering to the same thing?

[...] “Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth and as it is in heaven.�

I have always understood this to mean God obviously resides in heaven (yes, of course He is everywhere, but you know what I mean)

Okay, so (correct me if I'm wrong) you take the word "heaven" in this prayer to be literally where God lives (the spirit realm).

I notice you didn't answer all my questions..... what do you understand the word "earth" to refer to?