Christian Salvation?

[POI]

According to the Bible, what minimum qualifications are required for Christian Heavenly salvation?

- Does a stillborn baby receive a free pass?
- Do all deceased children receive a free pass, prior to the age of enlightenment?
- Is it mandatory to believe, worship, and also attempt to follow Hm; while still knowing you will fall short of perfection in your attempts?
- Is some sort of baptism a requirement for salvation?
- Can you lack conviction that God even exists, but still be selected by your judged upon works?
- Must you keep specific Commandments all the time?
- Does blasphemy of the Holy Spirit guarantee damnation, regardless of later repentance of this prior deemed offense (i.e.) the born again Christians might be screwed?
- Are earnest deathbed conversions, by way of belief and repent to the Christian God, enough?
- Must you love God more than you love anyone on earth?
- Can you be a devout believer/follower, but choose not to give away the majority of your wealth to ones more in need than you?
- Can you be saved if you practice monogamous homosexuality until death?

[POI]

True repentance would include trying not to engage the same activity.

Well, not engaging in the same activity.

If you do not divorce your same sex spouse, and at least attempt to only engage the opposite sex in marriage, then you are truly not remorseful for being gay, right?

Um, well, in that case, I guess that person could be remorseful for his/her sin of homosexuality, although possibly not, but only recognizing of the fact that it was wrong. Even so, wouldn't the person then be guilty of a different type of sexual sin, namely polygamy? Or two, actually, polygamy and adultery...

Furthermore, I doubt God would ever view same sex couples in 'marriage', under God, anyways?

It's a desecration of an institution He Himself created and gave to man for his/her benefit.

Omission looks to mean "failure to do something legal and/or moral." Commission looks to include "instructions or commands given".

Sins of omission are those in which we knew we should have done something good, but refused. A sin of commission is a sin we take action to commit, whether in thought, word, or deed. A sin of commission can be intentional or unintentional. Paul says it well in Romans 7 when he acknowledges himself as a sinner and says the very thing he knows he should not do he does, and the things he knows he should do he fails to do. I was also getting at sinning and not even being aware that it is sin, which is very possible and something we all do, at least from time to time. None of us really realizes the full gravity of our sin, even if we acknowledge our sinfulness. And of course many just deny it altogether.

Thus, according to Scripture, a homosexual who acts upon their lust, is committing acts of 'omission.' According to Scripture, a homosexual whom acts upon their lust is also knowingly and willfully disobeying a direct order.

Well, a command, and God's natural order. Is there a point you're making? Are you thinking you're correcting me on something? No matter.

Thus far, it looks like anyone who engages homosexual monogamous relationships are not granted salvation, right?

Well, God is clear that people who engage in sexually immorality ~ which can take many different forms, including homosexuality ~ and remain unrepentant will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9)

You cannot truly repent of a perpetual willful sin, (i.e.) choosing to stay with your same sex partner, can you?

Ah, you know, I would say that one can be truly repentant of his/her homosexual behavior and stay with his/her partner, sure. Yes, that's possible. Nothing wrong with friendship and love, even between those of the same sex, right? Perhaps you are not, but I'm differentiating between "staying with" someone and remaining married to that person.

Seems pretty clear, according to this Book, that homosexuality is a transgression against God. If a claimed Christian continues in this acknowledged sin happily, then I guess God will not view them as faithful enough, right?

Good. Well, I would say God would view that person as not just "not faithful enough," but unfaithful altogether.

Your acts will reflect the veracity of your faith. Willfully engaging in a detestable sin would not appear to demonstrate your faith as a believer, would it?

Right.

Again, we are speaking about the minimum requirements for salvation.

I know what we're speaking about, POI.

If they remain "married" to the same sex partner, until they die, they are making no effort to truly repent, right?

Can they not remain "married" ~ as in a civil union, I guess ~ and still repent of their homosexuality? I would think so.

And if they remain "married", does God apply an exception for gay people? Or, before you die, must you instead revoke/rebuke your 'marriage' and only either engage in (legal) activity; with the opposite sex or remain celibate?

Hm. A good question. I already addressed the institution of marriage. So really, repenting of homosexuality is the issue. So this is interesting. What of the person who still considers himself gay but then engages in heterosexual activity in a monogamous marriage? What of the person who considers himself homosexual but only dissolves the "marriage" between himself (or herself) and the same-sex partner, and then marries one of the opposite sex and only then engages in sexual activity with that person? Is he or she not still actually unrepentant? And desecrating, even internally, the institution of marriage and not honoring of his or her new spouse and even God Himself, even though legally within bounds? I would say the person should remain single in that case, as Paul advises.

Thus, do active practicing gay people, whom also are aware of Christianity, go to heaven or hell?

See above. Possibly.

We might be getting closer...? I'll ask again, because you seem not to want to commit. The Bible looks to be crystal clear that homosexuality a direct transgression against Him. And if you do not repent, meaning, do not immediately divorce and actively try not to have relations with the same sex, is God going to grant your salvation anyways?

You continue to miss the point. Still, I will say, possibly. The heart is the issue. Is the heart really changed, which only God can do? Possibly. Or will the heart really be changed ~ which again, only God, by His Holy Spirit, can effect ~ at some point in the future? Possibly.

I'm literally trying to get you to commit to a position.

Yes, I'm aware of that. You're trying to trap me in my words. Give it up.

Do active homosexuals, who continue to engage in homosexual practices until they die, go to heaven or hell?

I'll repeat Paul's words again: "...do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." The unrepentant will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Remember, we are looking for the minimum requirements for salvation.

LOL! Yes, I remember, POI. If you keep asking me the same question(s), I will continue to give you the same answer(s).

Can claimed practicing Christian homosexuals achieve the minimum requirements for salvation?

Yes. Repentance and belief. Faith the size of a mustard seed. With man, this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible.

Grace and peace to you.

Okay "pinseeker', let's try and push forward this conversation a bit, shall we?

Your claim to salvation, thus far, requires belief/faith and repentance.

Homosexuality looks to be an objective gauge for the topic of repentance. Why? We look to have many claimed Christians who willingly choose same sex partners for life, and die as practicing homosexuals. One would assume these Christians are also aware what the Bible states about homosexuality. Thus, if a Christian knows homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of God, and willfully remains with the same sex partner they love, they are objectively not repenting; by definition.

-- Unless you wish to argue that sincere regret or remorse does not include renouncing/discontinuing the regretful willful action before you die?

If we can agree to this point, it would be safe to say, under your definition, that God will not provide any grace to practicing homosexuals. Can we close the books on this one topic, and move to the next? If not, where do you object?

Moving on to belief/faith. I keep touching on 'wealth', but you seem to have hand-waved this topic away (twice now)? I'll touch on it a third time, for safe measure:

1. How do you know that you do not cherish any one item too much; which might be rendered above your love for God?
2. How do you know you have successfully given away enough of your wealth, to demonstrate your true faith for God?

[2ndpillar2]

According to the Bible, what minimum qualifications are required for Christian Heavenly salvation?

- Does a stillborn baby receive a free pass?
- Do all deceased children receive a free pass, prior to the age of enlightenment?
- Is it mandatory to believe, worship, and also attempt to follow Hm; while still knowing you will fall short of perfection in your attempts?
- Is some sort of baptism a requirement for salvation?
- Can you lack conviction that God even exists, but still be selected by your judged upon works?
- Must you keep specific Commandments all the time?
- Does blasphemy of the Holy Spirit guarantee damnation, regardless of later repentance of this prior deemed offense (i.e.) the born again Christians might be screwed?
- Are earnest deathbed conversions, by way of belief and repent to the Christian God, enough?
- Must you love God more than you love anyone on earth?
- Can you be a devout believer/follower, but choose not to give away the majority of your wealth to ones more in need than you?
- Can you be saved if you practice monogamous homosexuality until death?

Matthew 24:13

[myth-one.com]

. . . do active practicing gay people, whom also are aware of Christianity, go to heaven or hell?

Sin no longer controls anyone's salvation under the New Testament Covenant:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

Under the New Testament Covenant, one must believe in Jesus as their Savior to gain everlasting life in the Kingdom of God:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Since "whosoever" excludes no one, it does not exclude gay people.

================================================================

Do active homosexuals, who continue to engage in homosexual practices until they die, go to heaven or hell?

I'll repeat Paul's words again: "...do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." The unrepentant will not inherit the kingdom of God.

PinSeeker was probably referring to the following verses:

Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revelers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (I Corinthians 6:9-10)

Paul wrote this in a letter to the Christians in Corinth.

After writing a list of sinners which will not inherit the Kingdom of God, Paul immediately write in the very next verse:

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (I Corinthians 6:11)

So there will be no murderers, thieves, fornicators, drunkards, homosexuals, etc, in the Kingdom of God. However, there will be angels who were formerly murderers, thieves, fornicators, drunkards, etc, as humans on the earth. Paul and David were both murderers. Paul persecuted Christians to their death and David had Uriah killed.

The Bible indicates that believers enter the Kingdom of Heaven as children:

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:3)

This does not mean small as a baby, helpless, etc. It means sinless. Christians will be converted from physical to spiritual bodies and become as little children once again.

You start with a clean slate!

[POI]

According to the Bible, what minimum qualifications are required for Christian Heavenly salvation?

- Does a stillborn baby receive a free pass?
- Do all deceased children receive a free pass, prior to the age of enlightenment?
- Is it mandatory to believe, worship, and also attempt to follow Hm; while still knowing you will fall short of perfection in your attempts?
- Is some sort of baptism a requirement for salvation?
- Can you lack conviction that God even exists, but still be selected by your judged upon works?
- Must you keep specific Commandments all the time?
- Does blasphemy of the Holy Spirit guarantee damnation, regardless of later repentance of this prior deemed offense (i.e.) the born again Christians might be screwed?
- Are earnest deathbed conversions, by way of belief and repent to the Christian God, enough?
- Must you love God more than you love anyone on earth?
- Can you be a devout believer/follower, but choose not to give away the majority of your wealth to ones more in need than you?
- Can you be saved if you practice monogamous homosexuality until death?

Matthew 24:13

Can you please elaborate a bit?

[POI]

. . . do active practicing gay people, whom also are aware of Christianity, go to heaven or hell?

Sin no longer controls anyone's salvation under the New Testament Covenant:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

Under the New Testament Covenant, one must believe in Jesus as their Savior to gain everlasting life in the Kingdom of God:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Since "whosoever" excludes no one, it does not exclude gay people.

As long as you are a believer and have faith, all other sin becomes irrelevant?

[myth-one.com]

. . . do active practicing gay people, whom also are aware of Christianity, go to heaven or hell?

Sin no longer controls anyone's salvation under the New Testament Covenant:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

Under the New Testament Covenant, one must believe in Jesus as their Savior to gain everlasting life in the Kingdom of God:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Since "whosoever" excludes no one, it does not exclude gay people.

As long as you are a believer and have faith, all other sin becomes irrelevant?

No one gets a free ride by believing in Jesus. That is, one can do whatever he pleases, then accept Jesus and get a clean slate without consequences. We reap the rewards of our sins here on earth. These may include prison time, jail, fear of detection, guilt, venereal disease, shame, lost opportunities, divorce, low self-esteem; and the list goes on, and on, and on.

In the Kingdom of God, everyone present will have a purely spiritual body. The laws regarding physical sins no longer apply as there are no physical bodies in the Kingdom of God:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (I Corinthians 15:50)

In answer to your question, except for the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, no other sins can prevent one from salvation.

So yes, they are irrelevant in that sense.

While true Christians will make an effort to be like Jesus, none will succeed. But their efforts can be used to identify them as Christians.

God makes some of us weak so that others can see what God can do through such weak persons. But if God can save me, He can save anyone.

I don't think it is our place to look down on anyone. It can come back to bite you.

Passengers aboard flight 93 on 9/11/2001 prevented their hijackers from crashing their plane into another American landmark. One leader in this effort was an admitted homosexual. Some might call him a faggot or queer. Whatever one calls him, on that day, He was a hero.

I would have been proud to know him.

[POI]

. . . do active practicing gay people, whom also are aware of Christianity, go to heaven or hell?

Sin no longer controls anyone's salvation under the New Testament Covenant:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

Under the New Testament Covenant, one must believe in Jesus as their Savior to gain everlasting life in the Kingdom of God:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Since "whosoever" excludes no one, it does not exclude gay people.

As long as you are a believer and have faith, all other sin becomes irrelevant?

No one gets a free ride by believing in Jesus. That is, one can do whatever he pleases, then accept Jesus and get a clean slate without consequences. We reap the rewards of our sins here on earth. These may include prison time, jail, fear of detection, guilt, venereal disease, shame, lost opportunities, divorce, low self-esteem; and the list goes on, and on, and on.

In the Kingdom of God, everyone present will have a purely spiritual body. The laws regarding physical sins no longer apply as there are no physical bodies in the Kingdom of God:

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (I Corinthians 15:50)

In answer to your question, except for the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, no other sins can prevent one from salvation.

So yes, they are irrelevant in that sense.

While true Christians will make an effort to be like Jesus, none will succeed. But their efforts can be used to identify them as Christians.

God makes some of us weak so that others can see what God can do through such weak persons. But if God can save me, He can save anyone.

I don't think it is our place to look down on anyone. It can come back to bite you.

Passengers aboard flight 93 on 9/11/2001 prevented their hijackers from crashing their plane into another American landmark. One leader in this effort was an admitted homosexual. Some might call him a faggot or queer. Whatever one calls him, on that day, He was a hero.

I would have been proud to know him.

Does a still-born go to heaven or hell? You stated John 3:16, which requires belief, and that sin is irrelevant. According to you, anyone who does not profess to Christ is placed in hell. Is this what you believe? If not, why not?

[PinSeeker]

Okay "pinseeker', let's try and push forward this conversation a bit, shall we?

Ah, "push forward..." Well, maybe more to the order of "keep going around in circles." But I'll respond in kind here:

Homosexuality looks to be an objective gauge for the topic of repentance. Why? We look to have many claimed Christians who willingly choose same sex partners for life, and die as practicing homosexuals. One would assume these Christians are also aware what the Bible states about homosexuality. Thus, if a Christian knows homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of God, and willfully remains with the same sex partner they love, they are objectively not repenting; by definition.

if you want to focus on one particular sin, that's fine with me. Interesting that you say "claimed Christians" here. One can claim anything, can they not? And closely related to that, if a person who professes to be a Christian but still remains a practicing homosexual, then that would call into question whether he or she is truly repenting, does it not? Which would then call into question whether he or she is truly born again of the Holy Spirit and thus a Christian, right? That person might even truly believe that he or she is a Christian, but the Bible is clear that there will be those who are "false sons," those who think they followed and served Christ but actually never did. These people will be among those to whom Jesus will say, at the Judgment, "Depart from me. I never knew you."

-- Unless you wish to argue that sincere regret or remorse does not include renouncing/discontinuing the regretful willful action before you die?

If we can agree to this point, it would be safe to say, under your definition, that God will not provide any grace to practicing homosexuals. Can we close the books on this one topic, and move to the next? If not, where do you object?

I've been very clear, and so am not sure why you haven't been able to "close the books" on this topic. Yes, merely being remorseful and/or regretful does not constitute repentance, at least not full repentance, which is a turning from the sin, even dying to it, and to God, living unto Him. This is true repentance.

Regarding your comment on God providing grace, in this life, God provides grace to everyone, whether they know it or realize it or not. Everyone who lives receives grace from God in some measure. But in the life to come, for unrepentant, unbelieving sinners, there will be no grace, but only judgment.

Yes, we can close the books and move on. Why it has taken you this long to get here I know not. But so be it.

Moving on to belief/faith. I keep touching on 'wealth', but you seem to have hand-waved this topic away (twice now)?

Well, I have been very clear on it, but you keep going back to your original assertion on it, particularly regarding what you said about Luke 12 (you had said it was Luke 14, but I guess that was a typo) in Posts 33 and 35. Only your doubling down on it have I eventually "waved away."

I'll touch on it a third time, for safe measure:

1. How do you know that you do not cherish any one item too much; which might be rendered above your love for God?
2. How do you know you have successfully given away enough of your wealth, to demonstrate your true faith for God?

The same answer for both, really: The Christian should be generous with what he or she has been given (by God, ultimately, because of His grace), knowing that God is his or her Provider and Savior, and trusting in Him to continue in that (and He will) ~ and thus sacrificial in his/her giving, not just of his/her material wealth but of his/her self and all that he/she has. What should be gained from this is an inner peace, among other things, and this is all a work of God by His Holy Spirit, Who is the giver of this peace, which passes understanding. Is there a required proportion or percentage? No, but as Paul says:

• "Each one must give as he (or she) has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. As it is written, 'He has distributed freely, he has given to the poor; his righteousness endures forever.' ” (2 Corinthians 9:7-9)

Yes, there is a thing called a tithe, which is a tenth, but this was a requirement of the Israelites in Old Testament times that, like all other aspects of the Civil and Ceremonial Law were guidelines and "training wheels" for those who lived before Jesus. This is how God instructed His people in their faith, but that is no longer necessary. Since the advent of Jesus, we are not bound to that in New Testament times. We no longer need that "tutor," or "guardian," as Paul calls it in Galatians. The principle it is the same, but not the practice. It's now a matter of the heart, which is what Paul is saying in that 2 Corinthians passage above. And he is repeating what Jesus said. Only the moral law remains in effect today, and it's all a matter of the heart:

• “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:37-39)

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

Does a still-born go to heaven or hell?

Either is possible; it depends on whether he or she is a member of God's elect or not, and whether God, by His Spirit, converted his or her heart or not. Age is irrelevant.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

Does a still-born go to heaven or hell? You stated John 3:16, which requires belief, and that sin is irrelevant. According to you, anyone who does not profess to Christ is placed in hell. Is this what you believe? If not, why not?

Every human will make their individual decision to choose between everlasting life (salvation) or everlasting death (annihilation) after understanding what both of those choices entail.

Most humans will make this decision during their second period of human life on the earth during their judgment.

This includes babies.

They will be resurrected at the second resurrection with every other deceased nonbeliever, grow to maturity, be preached the good news of the gospel and choose everlasting life or everlasting death at that time.

I cannot tell you about any particular still-born -- as it depends on their decision.

Those choosing not to participate in everlasting life will quickly perish for all eternity in their "second death" when cast into the lake of fire.

==================== NOTE =========================

Believers do not go to heaven. They become members of the Kingdom of Heaven on the earth and rule the earth forever with their Lord and Savior.

Nonbelievers are cast into the lake of fire.