Is hell eternal or not?

[scorpia]

Just a couple of references;

2 Thess 1 : 7-9 : and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed in heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power .

This verse mentions the final punishment as an everlasting destruction....

Jude 7 : In a similair way, Sodom and Gomorrah and teh surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire

This verse is similair

Rev 20 :14-15 : The death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This verse however mentions the punishment as a "second death"

Perhaps the latter verse doesn't negate that the "second death" is eternal. But then how is death eternal? Does it mean a long eternal period in a process of dying? Or does it mean a person will for the rest of eternity be dead? Is hell eternal or not?

[joer]

Easyrider, tambi, McCulluch and others. The battle over faith vs. faith and works as the means of attaining heaven has been argued for millenium. But NOW is the time of resolution of these differences. Around April of 2002 the almost i billion strong Catholic Church under Pope John Paul the II reach an accord with the 50 million of the 52 million strong Lutheran church after 500 years of division and separation. The Catholic Church compromised and agreed that one could be saved by faith alone. And the Lutheran Church compromised and agreed that besides just having faith it would BE GOOD to do good works. It's not really that hard to grasp. It makes prefect sense and it's high time we stop fighting about it and recognize the truths in the matter.

Consider these following ideas. Don't they make sense? Forget about calling on the Bible for quotes to support your differences look to the Bible for quotes that bring us together. Now here's those ideas. Just consider them just plain old fiction that speaks to the TRUTH.


Jesus made plain to his apostles the difference between the repentance of so-called good works as taught by the Jews and the change of mind by faith--the new birth--which he required as the price of admission to the kingdom. He taught his apostles that faith was the only requisite to entering the Father's kingdom. John had taught them "repentance--to flee from the wrath to come." Jesus taught, "Faith is the open door for entering into the present, perfect, and eternal love of God." Jesus did not speak like a prophet, one who comes to declare the word of God. He seemed to speak of himself as one having authority. Jesus sought to divert their minds from miracle seeking to the finding of a real and personal experience in the satisfaction and assurance of the indwelling of God's spirit of love and saving grace.

"Salvation is by the regeneration of the spirit and not by the self-righteous deeds of the flesh. You are justified by faith and fellowshipped by grace, not by fear and the self-denial of the flesh, albeit the Father's children who have been born of the spirit are ever and always masters of the self and all that pertains to the desires of the flesh. When you know that you are saved by faith, you have real peace with God. And all who follow in the way of this heavenly peace are destined to be sanctified to the eternal service of the ever-advancing sons of the eternal God. Henceforth, it is not a duty but rather your exalted privilege to cleanse yourselves from all evils of mind and body while you seek for perfection in the love of God.

In all praying, remember that sonship is a gift. No child has aught to do with earning the status of son or daughter. The earth child comes into being by the will of its parents. Even so, the child of God comes into grace and the new life of the spirit by the will of the Father in heaven. Therefore must the kingdom of heaven--divine sonship--be received as by a little child. You earn righteousness--progressive character development--but you receive sonship by grace and through faith.

It is forever true, `the just shall live by faith.' Entrance into the Father's kingdom is wholly free, but progress--growth in grace--is essential to continuance therein.

Now that that's settled unless you presist in fighting the age old fight, let us continue with what I believe tambi was initially referring to when he said he/she had just read the last few pages of the thread.

Topaz wrote:

Is hell eternal or not?
No, it is not eternal.

From Rev 20:15 which is the last verse, it says that all those whose names are not written in the book of life was cast into hell. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

After this, we see another scenario : a new heaven + a new earth + ALL THINGS NEW. This means ugly hell is no more. Ugliness, suffering, does not exist anymore in God’s creation b/c He creates ALL THINGS NEW.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Hell itself will be completely destroyed and the souls therein are no more in existence … anywhere. According to scripture, this is not a situation God wants us to be in. He wants us with Him in heaven to enjoy all He has to offer.

This is a powerful and insightful understanding that Topaz has introduced. And his quotes of Rev21:1 and Rev21:5 back up what he/she has understood in this Bible text.

What I see others doing is just rehashing old arguments, drumming up old quotes with old interpretations and overlooking a very valuable truth that Topaz has Identified. Instead of surreptitiously presenting old interpretations, why doesn't anyone consider the logical or otherwise validity and/or falsehood of what Topaz has presented on it's own merits? It seems to me that would be a worthwhile endeavor and request.

Thank You and God Bless you all my brothers and sisters. Happy New Year!:D [/u]

[tambi]

While there are consequences for sin in a saved person's afterlife, the real issue is whether or not people have received Christ as their atoning sacrifice for those sins. Those who have not received Christ / Christ's atonement will not fare well in the hereafter (John 3:36; John 8:24, etc.).

which is exactly where the dillema lays. the idea of sin seperating man from god is replaced with belief in nature of god and one's salvation through Christ (ie. being a Christian)

non Christians are said to be in a state of sin nature, and Christians are born again and thus free of sin nature through Christ. the problem is, Christians still sin. so are sinning Christians true christians? if not, then I suppose then true christianity is theoretical. if so, then we are back at the beginning, with the question of "do bad people who are Christians go to heaven".

Have you studied progressive sanctification in the NT? If someone is a true Christian the Holy Spirit will work in their lives, over time, to make the believer more "Christlike". If none of this is evident in a so-called Christian's life - if they aren't making progress and are just as vicious a liar as they always were, then their "born-again" experience is in great doubt.

ok. so sinners are not Christians? their sin is evidence of their unbelief, correct?

the holy spirit should be in the life of the believer. but people can be in sin without it being "evident". I'm sure Christians wrestle with all kinds of sinful ideas and desires, and act on them. does acting on sin retract the atonement? there does not seem to be any discernable line that differenciates a Christian from a non Christian, especially since Jesus spoke of sinful thoughts and feelings being just as serious as sinful actons.

A modern day Jew probably. Since Jesus is God, he is also the God of the OT, and the one who spoke with Moses in the burning bush account. Jews then were justified righteous by faith in God (Genesis 15:6) just like people are justified by faith in the NT (Ephesians 2:8-9).

interesting that your God would condemn a hypothetically sinless and faithful human simply because they belong to a religious tradition slightly different from other worshipers.

so you have no real problem sleeping at night knowing that the theology you believe in allows for every Jew murdered in the Holocaust to have been burning in hell for the last half century?



[/b]

[achilles12604]

which is exactly where the dillema lays. the idea of sin seperating man from god is replaced with belief in nature of god and one's salvation through Christ (ie. being a Christian)

non Christians are said to be in a state of sin nature, and Christians are born again and thus free of sin nature through Christ. the problem is, Christians still sin. so are sinning Christians true christians? if not, then I suppose then true christianity is theoretical. if so, then we are back at the beginning, with the question of "do bad people who are Christians go to heaven".

Have you studied progressive sanctification in the NT? If someone is a true Christian the Holy Spirit will work in their lives, over time, to make the believer more "Christlike". If none of this is evident in a so-called Christian's life - if they aren't making progress and are just as vicious a liar as they always were, then their "born-again" experience is in great doubt.

ok. so sinners are not Christians? their sin is evidence of their unbelief, correct?

the holy spirit should be in the life of the believer. but people can be in sin without it being "evident". I'm sure Christians wrestle with all kinds of sinful ideas and desires, and act on them. does acting on sin retract the atonement? there does not seem to be any discernable line that differenciates a Christian from a non Christian, especially since Jesus spoke of sinful thoughts and feelings being just as serious as sinful actons.

A modern day Jew probably. Since Jesus is God, he is also the God of the OT, and the one who spoke with Moses in the burning bush account. Jews then were justified righteous by faith in God (Genesis 15:6) just like people are justified by faith in the NT (Ephesians 2:8-9).

interesting that your God would condemn a hypothetically sinless and faithful human simply because they belong to a religious tradition slightly different from other worshipers.

so you have no real problem sleeping at night knowing that the theology you believe in allows for every Jew murdered in the Holocaust to have been burning in hell for the last half century?



[/b]

which is exactly where the dillema lays. the idea of sin seperating man from god is replaced with belief in nature of god and one's salvation through Christ (ie. being a Christian)

non Christians are said to be in a state of sin nature, and Christians are born again and thus free of sin nature through Christ. the problem is, Christians still sin. so are sinning Christians true christians? if not, then I suppose then true christianity is theoretical. if so, then we are back at the beginning, with the question of "do bad people who are Christians go to heaven".

As with many things, there are various viewpoints on the doctrine of sin and forgiveness. I personally subscribe to the view that once a person truely becomes a Christian, the no longer rellish in the sins of their past. They may still sin, but that sin will eat away at them. Almost like a devine guilt trip. Thus, their inner desires have changed and ultimately their outer actions will change in time to match what their new Christ centered desires are.

Now the fact that christians desire to always do right and obey god, does not necessitate that result. They will still sin. This brings in the love and forgiveness of Jesus and his sacrifice.

Now there are individuals who claim christianity, yet never really allowed Jesus to take control of their lives throught their desires. These individuals continue to relish in their ways and never actually change in their hearts.

In my opinon only GOD can truely determine the nature of a person's heart. The actions of that person can be an indicator for us here on earth but we can never be REALLY sure like God can.

HMMM. . . I just read Easy's next segment. Apparently we agree on this subject. Nice to have some confirmation of what I view.

ok. so sinners are not Christians? their sin is evidence of their unbelief, correct?

Where ever did you get this idea? Surely not from any Christian who actually opened their bible. I'm going to g out on a limb and suggest that you arrived at this conclusion after discussion with other non-theists and anti-christian people who in turn got thier opinions from others of the same opinion.

The idea that a "true" christian never sins is rediculious. It never says anything of the sort in the bible. In fact the individual who talked most on the holy spirit and Christian sin, claimed to be the worst sinner of any man on earth. Your viewpoint is a common misconception spread by anti-Christian rhettoric which is so abundently available on many debating sites.

7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

[tambi]

Around April of 2002 the almost i billion strong Catholic Church under Pope John Paul the II reach an accord with the 50 million of the 52 million strong Lutheran church after 500 years of division and separation.

awesome, I'm all for ecumenism

the problem arises when religious adherents use these doctrinal truths to the exclusion of those outside the sectarian fold.

Jesus made plain to his apostles the difference between the repentance of so-called good works as taught by the Jews and the change of mind by faith--the new birth--which he required as the price of admission to the kingdom..

faith in what though? are you arguing that Jews do not have true faith, but rather have only a vain attempt to buy their way to heaven through good deeds?

In all praying, remember that sonship is a gift. No child has aught to do with earning the status of son or daughter. The earth child comes into being by the will of its parents. Even so, the child of God comes into grace and the new life of the spirit by the will of the Father in heaven. Therefore must the kingdom of heaven--divine sonship--be received as by a little child. You earn righteousness--progressive character development--but you receive sonship by grace and through faith...

but does this apply only to Christians, who are saved through the blood of God the Son?

It is forever true, `the just shall live by faith.' Entrance into the Father's kingdom is wholly free, but progress--growth in grace--is essential to continuance therein.].

I agree with this, but I don't believe that it is exclusive to religion.

What I see others doing is just rehashing old arguments, drumming up old quotes with old interpretations and overlooking a very valuable truth that Topaz has Identified. Instead of surreptitiously presenting old interpretations, why doesn't anyone consider the logical or otherwise validity and/or falsehood of what Topaz has presented on it's own merits? It seems to me that would be a worthwhile endeavor and request. ].

I am not attempting to rehash century old doctrinal conflicts, just questioning ideas that lead to sectarian arrogance on the part of believers. the same applies to any religion. both faith and good works are relevant, but how can they be confined to people


Happy New Year!

[tambi]

As with many things, there are various viewpoints on the doctrine of sin and forgiveness. I personally subscribe to the view that once a person truely becomes a Christian, the no longer rellish in the sins of their past. They may still sin, but that sin will eat away at them. Almost like a devine guilt trip. Thus, their inner desires have changed and ultimately their outer actions will change in time to match what their new Christ centered desires are.

fair enough, and it makes sense. true christians will feel sorry for their sins and attempt to not sin.

Now the fact that christians desire to always do right and obey god, does not necessitate that result. They will still sin. This brings in the love and forgiveness of Jesus and his sacrifice.

so the only way god can forgive a person is if they are a christian? since sin is clearly a non issue to the whole equation.

Now there are individuals who claim christianity, yet never really allowed Jesus to take control of their lives throught their desires. These individuals continue to relish in their ways and never actually change in their hearts.

I'm not really sure what you mean here. are you saying that those who's sin is obvious and clear, obviously do not believe in Jesus, and thus are not really Christian?

In my opinon only GOD can truely determine the nature of a person's heart. The actions of that person can be an indicator for us here on earth but we can never be REALLY sure like God can.

I agree.

ok. so sinners are not Christians? their sin is evidence of their unbelief, correct?

Where ever did you get this idea? Surely not from any Christian who actually opened their bible. I'm going to g out on a limb and suggest that you arrived at this conclusion after discussion with other non-theists and anti-christian people who in turn got thier opinions from others of the same opinion.

The idea that a "true" christian never sins is rediculious. It never says anything of the sort in the bible. In fact the individual who talked most on the holy spirit and Christian sin, claimed to be the worst sinner of any man on earth. Your viewpoint is a common misconception spread by anti-Christian rhettoric which is so abundently available on many debating sites.

I got that from Christian theology actually. you can't have it both ways. sin is ether inherent human nature or not. ether belief in Jesus Christ's divinity, death and reserection and atonement for your sins leads you to a life dead to sin, or it doesn't. ether sin is the seperation between man and god, or belief in religious doctrine is.

[achilles12604]

I for one have to confess something.

Once again I have had to junk my previous opinion and some apologist writings on this subject. I am now convinced that neither Hell nor its punishments are eternal. Thanks once again for wonderful discourse and the knowledge gleaned from our bantering.

[joer]

Tambi you ask a lot of questions in your post. I'll see if I can respond in kind.

“so are sinning Christians true Christians?”

Yes!

No matter what or who you are. We will sin. It’s just plain and simple no one is perfect. Sin doesn’t change who you are. Faith in God and desire to do the Will of God changes you. It doesn’t change your religious preference it changes you at the most profound basis of your being. You realize you are a son or daughter of God and you want to be more like God wants you to be. You want to choose right over wrong. It has nothing to do with weather you’re a Christian or any other faith except to the extent that that religious faith brings you closer to God.

It seems like that’s what you might be driving at Tambi. Is it?

ok. so sinners are not Christians?

Incorrect

their sin is evidence of their unbelief, correct?

Also incorrect

you have no real problem sleeping at night knowing that the theology you believe in allows for every Jew murdered in the Holocaust to have been burning in hell for the last half century?

Also incorrect deductions. Or simply expressions of cynicism

“awesome, I'm all for ecumenism”

Cool! I’m for as many of us as possible recognizing their sonship and daughtership with God. Regardless of religious preference. Quite simply we are all sons and daughters of God regardless of religious preference. And it would be nice if we could see each other in that light.

faith in what though?

Faith in God!

are you arguing that Jews do not have true faith,

Not at All.

but rather have only a vain attempt to buy their way to heaven through good deeds?

Not Jews specifically, but anyone who would put forth that so-called good works . would get you into heaven. It's like if you have a false faith and and you JUST do good works not because it’s in your heart to do them or to do God’s Will that you do them BUT you do them believing that will save you INSTEAD of Faith. See what I mean Tambi?… so-called good works .

"joer wrote: It is forever true, `the just shall live by faith.' Entrance into the Father's kingdom is wholly free, but progress--growth in grace--is essential to continuance therein.]."

I agree with this, but I don't believe that it is exclusive to religion.

Your right it’s not. It’s an integral part of God’s creation. You see it in Nature, In Life, in the World around you.

I am not attempting to rehash century old doctrinal conflicts, just questioning ideas that lead to sectarian arrogance on the part of believers.

Good. As well you should. But it would be nice if you had a truth to share with those believers in an attempt to expose and dissipate that sectarian arrogance.

the same applies to any religion. both faith and good works are relevant, but how can they be confined to people.

Who says they are?

so the only way god can forgive a person is if they are a christian?

Wrong. Anybody is eligiable for forgiveness.

since sin is clearly a non issue to the whole equation.

Not exactly a non-issue but not nearly as important as a creature of God’s desire to be forgiven.

I'm not really sure what you mean here. are you saying that those who's sin is obvious and clear, obviously do not believe in Jesus, and thus are not really Christian?

Nope. achilles12604 is not saying that.

"achilles12604 wrote:
In my opinon only GOD can truely determine the nature of a person's heart. The actions of that person can be an indicator for us here on earth but we can never be REALLY sure like God can."

I agree.

Me Too!

I got that from Christian theology actually. you can't have it both ways. sin is ether inherent human nature or not. ether belief in Jesus Christ's divinity, death and reserection and atonement for your sins leads you to a life dead to sin, or it doesn't. ether sin is the seperation between man and god, or belief in religious doctrine is.

Not true. It does not have to be black and white. You can strive to do God’s Will even while you still sin. We are not computers where you can turn a switch off or on. You can change but it often takes time. It’s not instantaneous. So to your statement:

. ether belief in Jesus Christ's divinity, death and reserection and atonement for your sins leads you to a life dead to sin, or it doesn't.

, happens to be most profoundly false.

For even today we are still trying to divorce ourselves from a life of sin and life a life dedicated to the will of God. In the time of eternity of course 2000 years is a very short period of time. To us it may seem like a long time but in reality in comparison to eternity we are relinquishing our attachment to sin very rapidly. And so Tambi we continue to do so until our conversion is complete, however long it takes.

And so the quote and understanding of Topaz of "I will make all things new again" takes on tremendous meaning. And the "End of the World" may not be the cataclysm we are expecting BUT a mere change in our perspective from a sinful perspective to a perspective relatively free from SIN and we become "made anew" And for your edification Tambi, it's not only Christians who become "made anew". It's all of us!

[tambi]

Tambi you ask a lot of questions in your post. I'll see if I can respond in kind.

sorry about that

No matter what or who you are. We will sin. It’s just plain and simple no one is perfect. Sin doesn’t change who you are. Faith in God and desire to do the Will of God changes you. It doesn’t change your religious preference it changes you at the most profound basis of your being. You realize you are a son or daughter of God and you want to be more like God wants you to be. You want to choose right over wrong. It has nothing to do with weather you’re a Christian or any other faith except to the extent that that religious faith brings you closer to God. It seems like that’s what you might be driving at Tambi. Is it?

yes, thats what I'm getting at, how God is not limited to religious scriptures. and I agree with you that faith changes people more then sin does.

you have no real problem sleeping at night knowing that the theology you believe in allows for every Jew murdered in the Holocaust to have been burning in hell for the last half century?

Also incorrect deductions. Or simply expressions of cynicism

well you have to admit, people who believe others burn in damnation hell fire for eternity simply for following a slightly different religious tradition do have a rather morbid theological world view.

Not Jews specifically, but anyone who would put forth that so-called good works . would get you into heaven. It's like if you have a false faith and and you JUST do good works not because it’s in your heart to do them or to do God’s Will that you do them BUT you do them believing that will save you INSTEAD of Faith. See what I mean Tambi?… so-called good works .

ahh, I see what you're saying, so people who do good works for purely selfish motives, like personal salvation, or worldy status right?

As well you should. But it would be nice if you had a truth to share with those believers in an attempt to expose and dissipate that sectarian arrogance.

I'm not sure if orthodox believers would consider any non biblical spiritual 'truths' valid though, since they base their theological view strictly on the bible.

the same applies to any religion. both faith and good works are relevant, but how can they be confined to people.

Who says they are?

evangelical christians for one. they believe that truth and spiritual knowledge is dead outside of their faith, thus the need to go forth and convert the masses to Christ.

For even today we are still trying to divorce ourselves from a life of sin and life a life dedicated to the will of God. In the time of eternity of course 2000 years is a very short period of time. To us it may seem like a long time but in reality in comparison to eternity we are relinquishing our attachment to sin very rapidly. And so Tambi we continue to do so until our conversion is complete, however long it takes.

And so the quote and understanding of Topaz of "I will make all things new again" takes on tremendous meaning. And the "End of the World" may not be the cataclysm we are expecting BUT a mere change in our perspective from a sinful perspective to a perspective relatively free from SIN and we become "made anew" And for your edification Tambi, it's not only Christians who become "made anew". It's all of us!

Orthodox ecangelical Christians believe that we have only one life to accept Christ, and that christianity is the only ticket to escape hell. as a Universalist, do you believe that anything remotely similar to Hell exists, or that there are any consequences in the afterlife for our actions in the world?

[scorpia]

Isiah: 65- 20 "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years. He who dies at a hundred will be considered accursed."

Nice little description of heaven. Or at least it's supposed to be seeing as how other references all say it has eternal life.

But then why does it say "If a man dies at a hundred......" When that guy is in heaven? Is heaven not so eternal after all? Is it possible for a guy to die while in heaven? Isiah seems to hint at it.

And if that's the case for heaven, why not presume it's the case for hell too?

[McCulloch]

Isiah: 65- 20 "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years. He who dies at a hundred will be considered accursed."

Nice little description of heaven. Or at least it's supposed to be seeing as how other references all say it has eternal life.

But then why does it say "If a man dies at a hundred......" When that guy is in heaven? Is heaven not so eternal after all? Is it possible for a guy to die while in heaven? Isiah seems to hint at it.

And if that's the case for heaven, why not presume it's the case for hell too?

[lots of stuff about how God's people are rebellious and He will destroy them]
Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD,
"Behold, My servants will eat, but you will be hungry
Behold, My servants will drink, but you will be thirsty
Behold, My servants will rejoice, but you will be put to shame.
Behold, My servants will shout joyfully with a glad heart,
But you will cry out with a heavy heart,
And you will wail with a broken spirit.
You will leave your name for a curse to My chosen ones,
And the Lord GOD will slay you
But My servants will be called by another name.
Because he who is blessed in the earth
Will be blessed by the God of truth;
And he who swears in the earth
Will swear by the God of truth;
Because the former troubles are forgotten,
And because they are hidden from My sight!

For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing
And her people for gladness.
I will also rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in My people;
And there will no longer be heard in her
The voice of weeping and the sound of crying.
No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
Or an old man who does not live out his days;
For the youth will die at the age of one hundred
And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred
Will be thought accursed.
They will build houses and inhabit them;
They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
They will not build and another inhabit,
They will not plant and another eat;
For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people,
And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.
They will not labor in vain,
Or bear children for calamity;
For they are the offspring of those blessed by the LORD,
And their descendants with them.

It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear.

The wolf and the lamb will graze together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox; and dust will be the serpent's food They will do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain," says the LORD.

This new heavens and new earth is not like the afterlife described in the NT. Just what is this prophesy about?