What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

[Checkpoint]

The immediate context is this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So, how do you read, what do you understand, is the intended meaning of the words in bold above?

To help us along, tell us whether you see them as primarily referring to verses 13 and 14, or to verses 15 to 17.

Please note however, this thread is not about other issues you may view as being related, such as the details of prophecy.

It is about the fact of the second coming and the resurrection that then occurs.

[tam]

Peace to you OWH,

[Replying to post 35 by onewithhim]

Peace to you OWH.

A question if I may?

In 1914, were those who were still alive caught up to meet them (Christ and those who had already died in Him) in the air?


If your answer is no, Thessalonians cannot be referring to 1914.

No, in 1914 or soon thereafter when the anointed started to be called to heaven, the ones who were alive then were not caught up to meet Christ in the air. Brother Rutherford and many others were still alive and remained so for a number of years.

I am thinking that Thessalonians refers to the time just before Armageddon.

Therefore, if the "return" in this verse is not referring to 1914, then the return and this verse must be referring to the time (yet to come) when Christ establishes HIS Kingdom on the earth.

In which case, the anointed cannot all be in heaven at that time; some are still alive on the earth, so as to be caught up at that time to meet the Lord in the air, when He returns. As the verse states.




Peace again to you, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

When Christ returns, He will bring with Him those (Christians) who have died from the first century up until the time that He returns. These ones who have died are currently under the altar (in heaven) awaiting the first resurrection.

Please ask for clarification if need be.

Your post makes no sense.

The holy ones that died, were brought back to life in heaven, kept in a specific location (alive) in heaven and are awaiting... a resurrection? If they are alive in heaven what is "the first resurrection" these individuals, who are currently alive, are awaiting?

JW

The holy ones who die before Christ returns go under the altar (as opposed to going to the world of the dead - sheol/hades). They are still asleep, but their spirit goes under the altar in heaven and not to sheol/hades. Just as Stephen cried out before he died:

"Lord [Jesus] receive my spirit..."

Stephen was not talking about some active force, but rather his own spirit/himself.

Where do you get that idea? His "spirit" was, indeed, the active FORCE that kept him alive. It was not some conscious part of him that lived on. That would contradict the idea that people really DIE.

If the early anointed Christians DIED, they were not under any "altar" in heaven (which was not literal anyway, just like the Harlot sitting on the back of the Beast is not literal but SYMBOLIC of an important truth). Of course, if they weren't truly dead, they could've been anywhere. Were they dead or not?

[marco]

we [all spirit anointed Christians] who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them

Here Paul is referring to the final gathering of Jesus spirit anointed followers to heaven. When Paul speaks of "we"* here (verse 14) he is refering to "we" as a group of spirit anointed, born again Christians" and not simply restricted to the recipients of Paul's first century letter.

This is a highly improbable interpretation. Here is why:

a) The pronoun is used in its normal meaning to start the sentence "For if we believe."
When he says "we say unto you" he is using "we" in direct relation to himself. If he then leaps into a third meaning of "we" it would be grammatically clumsy, incongruous, confusing and atypical of Paul

b) If we want to take "we" in the inclusive sense, just like the soldier speaking for now, then and in future, this is fine as long as the central meaning remains, otherwise "we" makes no sense and would be rendered "they." At least SOME of the "we" must refer to the present listeners.

c) If "we" means the community of born-again people then Paul would have to define this if he wanted to use the pronoun. It would be impossible for his listeners to take this meaning and so this cannot be the meaning Paul intended. The only excuse for giving this meaning is to graft a future belief system onto Paul's words.

d) He concludes by saying there is comfort in his words for one another. This would apply only if the "we" meant them, not denizens of a distant century. Where's the comfort in something that does not remotely apply?

I am sorry if this disappoints.

[eldios]

The immediate context is this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So, how do you read, what do you understand, is the intended meaning of the words in bold above?

To help us along, tell us whether you see them as primarily referring to verses 13 and 14, or to verses 15 to 17.

Please note however, this thread is not about other issues you may view as being related, such as the details of prophecy.

It is about the fact of the second coming and the resurrection that then occurs.

This prophecy will help you understand the resurrection;

John 5:
25: "Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26: For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself,
27: and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man.
28: Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice.

This one too;

Isaiah 43
1: But now thus says the LORD, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.
2: When you pass through the waters I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you.

[onewithhim]

We who are alive at this time/event will be caught up to meet them in the air... and changed (given the new body), and will be kings and priests with Christ upon the earth.

If Christ and God are on the earth, and hell is being away from God, does this mean that the angels that remain in heaven are in "hell"?

Of course not. I'm not sure where you are getting your definition of hell to begin with. BUT, please note that I said the Kingdom is established upon the earth, that Christ and His own reign upon the earth (as is written in Revelation). That does not mean that God left the spiritual realm. God is all in all. That also does not mean that Christ (and us) cannot enter the spiritual realm and the physical realm.

Christ said that His sheep will come in and go out and find pasture. His sheep may move between the spiritual and the earthly realms... as Adam could do originally (restoring things); as the angels can do now (we will be like the angels, yes?).

And who rules the heavens since it's been vacated by Jesus and God?

Christ has all authority in heaven and on earth.

No one said the spiritual realm has been vacated.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You should be quite familiar with what JWs think the definition of "hell" is since we have been talking about it for years. It has been thoroughly explained. Is it too complicated to understand?

"Hell" has been rendered from at least three different Greek names: "Hades," "Gehenna," and "Tartarus." ALL are translated as "hell" and they each have DIFFERENT MEANINGS. Do you see the unfortunate error that the King James translation committee made?

"Hades" simply means THE GRAVE.
"Gehenna" is SYMBOLIC for complete destruction, just like garbage was completely destroyed in the dump outside Jerusalem.
"Tartarus" is found at 2Peter 2:4, and was meant by Peter to mean a spiritual darkness, not a literal place.

When Jesus is said to have been in "Hades" or "Hell," was he really in a burning place of suffering and torture? (Acts 2:27,31) Or was he actually in his grave? See how confusing it gets when you aren't aware of the different meanings that are behind the facade of "hell"? Some religions actually teach that Jesus went to a fiery hell!

So I think it's pretty clear that Jesus was in the GRAVE, and was not abandoned there by God. (Acts 2:31,32)


It is written in Revelation that Jesus and his co-rulers will rule OVER the earth, and not necessarily ON it. The word translated "on" in chapter 5 and verse 10 can also be translated as "over"....either way. Therefore, if we take everything that Jesus and his disciples said, it makes much more sense that the proper word would be "over" because all indications from them is that heaven is where Jesus and his anointed co-rulers would be stationed. None of them speak of coming back, literally, to the earth and remaining here. You can't provide any scripture that states such a thing.

"And hast made them for our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign OVER the earth." (Revelation 5:10, Holy Trinity Edition of the Catholic Bible)


You are assuming a LOT about believers going back and forth between the physical realm and the spiritual realm. There is no solid scriptural evidence for that.

[onewithhim]

We who are alive at this time/event will be caught up to meet them in the air... and changed (given the new body), and will be kings and priests with Christ upon the earth.

So the holy ones will be "caught up to meet Jesus" in the air, as he is coming down to earth and they will not go on to heaven but come straight back down to live and rule on earth? What's the point of going up into the air if its only to return to the earth. Isn't this a little like taking your car to the end of the road, only to return to park in front of your house?

Paul does not lay out every detail. We are just speaking about this particular verse. But we are caught up to meet them in the air; changed (given the new body... so that we now have the spirit body, the white robe, that may move in and out of the spiritual realm). This takes place in a twinkling (and I think this is also the time of the union/marriage between the Bride and the Lamb.) But the New Jerusalem (the Bride) also comes down out of heaven and she reigns upon the earth with Christ, a thousand years.

Why do they need a new body if they never died and are only going to continue living on the earth

Because this body (the long garment of skin given to Adam - which represents this flesh and blood) has sin and death in it. It cannot enter the spiritual realm, and it will die. The new body (the white robe - which represents the spirit body) has LIFE in it; and it can come into spiritual realm. Which realm we will move in and out OF. As Christ said we would. He is the gate, and His sheep will come in and go out and find pasture.

You're hanging a whole lot of complicated belief upon that one little ambiguous verse! Because Jesus says that his followers will "come in and go out and find pasture," you feel that he means we will be able to switch realms like changing our clothes! It's not convincing to me. But anyway, the big question here hasn't been answered.

You didn't answer JW's question. Again: Since you believe that people don't really die and that they have spirit bodies (under the "altar"), why would they need to have a resurrection and to CHANGE into a spirit body? You say they ALREADY HAVE ONE. Explain that please.


.

[onewithhim]

To perhaps help you (or anyone reading) to be able to get a sense of God being 'everywhere' (although those are not my words), and God also being able to come down to earth:

God did this once already, yes? When He came down to reveal Himself to Israel? But the people were terrified, and instead of hearing or even seeing God, they wanted to go through Moses instead. They did not actually see God, Himself, but He came down... in more than just a "God is everywhere" way. Yes?


That is what my Lord reminded me of when I was struggling to understand your (JW) question (and its answer) on that topic. So I am sharing that with you as well.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

So you think that God Almighty, Maker of the universe, literally CAME DOWN to Mt. Sinai? If He made the billions of stars, do you think that perhaps He might be a little bit too gloriously magnificent to literally come down to a tiny spot on a tiny speck of a planet in one of His galaxies? Isn't it more reasonable to think that He assigned a REPRESENTATIVE for the meetings with Moses, as He did in the burning bush scenario and the cloud and pillar of fire as they left Egypt? He RESIDES in heaven, and His worshipers have always addressed Him as being THERE. King Solomon, in one prayer, beseeched Jehovah to listen from "your dwelling place in the heavens" several (at least 8) times. (I Kings 8:27-53) Solomon, and everybody else, knew that God was in HEAVEN and would not literally come to the earth.

"Will God truly dwell upon the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house [the temple] that I have built!" (I Kings 8:27)


I would question "your Lord"'s veracity.


.

[tam]

When Christ returns, He will bring with Him those (Christians) who have died from the first century up until the time that He returns. These ones who have died are currently under the altar (in heaven) awaiting the first resurrection.

Please ask for clarification if need be.

Your post makes no sense.

The holy ones that died, were brought back to life in heaven, kept in a specific location (alive) in heaven and are awaiting... a resurrection? If they are alive in heaven what is "the first resurrection" these individuals, who are currently alive, are awaiting?

JW

The holy ones who die before Christ returns go under the altar (as opposed to going to the world of the dead - sheol/hades). They are still asleep, but their spirit goes under the altar in heaven and not to sheol/hades. Just as Stephen cried out before he died:

"Lord [Jesus] receive my spirit..."

Stephen was not talking about some active force, but rather his own spirit/himself.

Where do you get that idea? His "spirit" was, indeed, the active FORCE that kept him alive. It was not some conscious part of him that lived on. That would contradict the idea that people really DIE.

The spirit IS him... the inner man... the man we truly are on the inside. Our thoughts, our person, our emotions, everything that makes us who we are. Which is why it is the inside of the cup that matters; and not the outside. Which is why the 'flesh counts for nothing'.

The spirit of a man is what descends to the grave, sleeping, conscious of nothing... or the spirit of a man is what is received by Christ, resting (sleeping) under the altar, awaiting the first resurrection.

The grave (sheol/hades) is where Job longed to go to escape his suffering. Nothing he said indicates that he longed to 'cease to exist' to be recreated (as opposed to being resurrected) at a later time. That idea is not taught by Christ OR by scripture.

The very idea of the resurrection indicates that something remains of the person to BE resurrected. Not recreated. Otherwise it would be the first re-creation; rather than the first resurrection.

If the early anointed Christians DIED, they were not under any "altar" in heaven

Revelations says otherwise. Stephen asking Christ to receive His spirit (after being killed) also indicates that his spirit would be received by Christ, in heaven.

Of course, if they weren't truly dead, they could've been anywhere. Were they dead or not?

Didn't Christ and Paul (the one whose words we are discussing) state that they were sleeping; had fallen asleep in Christ? Sleeping does not indicate that one has ceased to exist.

Destruction indicates that one ceases to exist.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

When Christ returns, He will bring with Him those (Christians) who have died from the first century up until the time that He returns. These ones who have died are currently under the altar (in heaven) awaiting the first resurrection.

Please ask for clarification if need be.

Your post makes no sense.

The holy ones that died, were brought back to life in heaven, kept in a specific location (alive) in heaven and are awaiting... a resurrection? If they are alive in heaven what is "the first resurrection" these individuals, who are currently alive, are awaiting?

JW

The holy ones who die before Christ returns go under the altar (as opposed to going to the world of the dead - sheol/hades). They are still asleep, but their spirit goes under the altar in heaven and not to sheol/hades. Just as Stephen cried out before he died:

"Lord [Jesus] receive my spirit..."

Stephen was not talking about some active force, but rather his own spirit/himself.

Where do you get that idea? His "spirit" was, indeed, the active FORCE that kept him alive. It was not some conscious part of him that lived on. That would contradict the idea that people really DIE.

The spirit IS him... the inner man... the man we truly are on the inside. Our thoughts, our person, our emotions, everything that makes us who we are. Which is why it is the inside of the cup that matters; and not the outside. Which is why the 'flesh counts for nothing'.

There is no scriptural evidence that what you say there is true. You are regurgitating pagan philosophy. You are a student of Plato, not Jesus.

"The flesh counts for nothing" only to those few co-rulers of Christ who will be changed at their death and go to heaven to be with him, thereby having to have spirit bodies.

.

[tam]

[Replying to post 65 by onewithhim]

You should be quite familiar with what JWs think the definition of "hell"

I am, but I have never heard a JW state that hell was being apart from God, and that if God was not in heaven, that must mean that the angels in heaven were now in hell.

Unless I misunderstood JW, that is what she said above, and that is what I was questioning.

It is written in Revelation that Jesus and his co-rulers will rule OVER the earth, and not necessarily ON it.

Epi is most often translated as upon. Christ is also on the earth at the separation of the sheep and the goats. The New Jerusalem also comes down OUT OF heaven.

All of these are indications that those who reign with Christ will reign upon the earth.

There is no indication that some Christians will go to heaven and some Christians will remain on the earth, and never the two shall meet.

You are assuming a LOT about believers going back and forth between the physical realm and the spiritual realm. There is no solid scriptural evidence for that.

There is no solid scriptural evidence that Christians should not eat and drink the body and blood of Christ - and much solid scriptural evidence that they SHOULD do so, including Christ's own command and warning that unless we do so we have no life in us.

Yet, your religion teaches ITS followers that they are not to do so; and ITS followers listen to them and their teachings/interpretations. (instead of to Christ)


There is no solid scriptural evidence that there are two hopes for Christians (earthly or heavenly), or that one group will reign over the other group, and yet your religion teaches ITS adherents that this is true and its adherents believe them and their interpretations.


There IS scriptural evidence that we will come in and go out, as I have listed. To recap a couple of points though:

A - Christ said that we would be like the angels in heaven. The angels in heaven can come in and go out between the two realms.

B - Christ said that His sheep will come in and go out and find pasture.

I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.



Enters what? Comes in and goes out of what?


Then of course... HOW... if we are FREE... are we confined to one realm or the other? Do you think that Christ is/will be trapped in the spiritual realm? That no one other than a handful of Christians will ever see Him, hear Him (even though He clearly states that His sheep hear His voice)?


Will angels no longer be permitted to move between the two realms? Or are they permitted to do so, but Christ and those who belong to Him are not? How does that make any sense?



I know it is not what the WTS teaches (teaching mainly about the earth). I know it is not what much of Christendom teaches (teaching mainly about heaven).

But it is what my Lord teaches and it does have scriptural backing.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy