The Fate of Nonbelievers

[myth-one.com]

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)

2. The Bible defines two body types, natural and spiritual. God and the angels are spiritual bodied beings, while all other beings are physical. The main difference between the two types is longevity. Spiritual bodies are immortal, while natural bodies will perish. Also, pain is necessary for natural bodies to recognize when they're in harm's way. Spirits are indestructible, and thus need no pain.
3. Two separate and distinct physical deaths may befall mankind, but only the first death is a certainty. Every human will die the first death.
4. And every human who suffers their first death will be resurrected. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be resurrected to everlasting life.
5. But there will be an order to the resurrections. Christ was resurrected first. All dead believers will be resurrected at the second Coming of Christ, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.
6. All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air.
7. At this time, there will be no living human Christians. All will have been born again of the Spirit as spiritual children of God. They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ.
8. Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish -- being human. This is their second and everlasting death. They have opted out of life for all eternity.
9. But their names were not written into the Book of Life prior to their judgment! Everyone with their names written in the Book of Life were born again into the spiritual Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. The Book of Life was cleared at that time. So why check it again?
10. The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Click here to view the current "Fate of Nonbelievers" and supporting biblical evidence as resolved by debaters under this thread.

I will modify attachments linked to from this post as we debate the issue and find corrections or improvements! Hopefully, we will be led to a good result!

[myth-one.com]

#1 All Christians during the millenium will live on the earth after being born again as spiritual beings at the Second Coming.

all nonbelievers [who accept Jesus] will.. be born again as spirits ... and reign over the world with Jesus for ever and ever.

Who is left to be reigned over? ie who are the subjects of this reign and are these subjects human?

After the last human has faced judgment and received his or her reward or punishment, there should be no more humans -- they will have served their purpose.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all their tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Revelation 21:1-4)

The new heaven and earth refer to our new earth and sky, not heaven where God resides. God's heaven was not made desolate by the rebellious angels and men who ruled over the earth, so it did not need to be made anew. Notice that the items necessary to support human life are no longer required because there is no longer any human life to support. For example, there are no seas, no night, or sun:

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. (Revelation 21:1)
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 22:5)

Jesus then rules the earth forever and ever. Under His rule are those who believed in Him as their Savior. They are now immortal spiritual children of God. "The tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them...," places God in the form of the Word (Jesus) on the earth. Although there are no longer any physical men at this point, man's domain was the earth. The indication is that Jesus will dwell on the earth. That is, where men were.

[JehovahsWitness]

#1 All Christians during the millenium will live on the earth after being born again as spiritual beings at the Second Coming.

all nonbelievers [who accept Jesus] will.. be born again as spirits ... and reign over the world with Jesus for ever and ever.

Who is left to be reigned over? ie who are the subjects of this reign and are these subjects human?

After the last human has faced judgment and received his or her reward or punishment, there should be no more humans -- they will have served their purpose..

But you said they will "reign" for ever and ever... over who will they reign over when human life has served their purpose? Animals?

[JehovahsWitness]

#1 Christ will return and Christians will meet him in the air; they will be transformed into spirits and descend to rule on the earth for 1000 years.

#2 The people that were not tranformed into spirits (unbelievers) will live under the rule of Jesus and the Christian spirits for one thousand years.

#3 During this time, human life (the lives of unbelievers) will continue as it is now (Multiple generations will living and dying).

#4 At the end of this thousand years the "unbelievers" will be judged and those that are judged favorably will also be turned into spirits.

#5 Then all the dead nonbelievers will be resurrected, judged and those judged favorably, will be tranformed into spirits. At this point everybody alive is a spirit.

#6 Jesus and the all those favorably judged, will continue as spirits and will spend eternity ruling over a new planet which will be empty of all human life. They will rule over this new planet for ever and ever .

Accurate now?

Under His rule are those who believed in Him as their Savior.

I'm still unclear which of the groups of spirits are subjects of Jesus when he is ruling for ever and ever.

a) Those that initially met him in the air when he first returned
b) The former" unbelievers" that are alive at the end of the millenium
c) Those resurrected at the end of the millenium
d) Other


Thanks,
JW

[myth-one.com]

But you said they will "reign" for ever and ever... over who will they reign over when human life has served their purpose? Animals?

They will reign over the earth and all of its inhabitants.

[myth-one.com]

I'm still unclear which of the groups of spirits are subjects of Jesus when he is ruling for ever and ever.

a) Those that initially met him in the air when he first returned
b) The former" unbelievers" that are alive at the end of the millenium
c) Those resurrected at the end of the millenium
d) Other


Thanks,
JW

There's one equal group of spirits created from mankind.

Jesus reigns over all of them on the earth.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 64 by myth-one.com]

okay. Are #1-6 Accurate now?

#1 Christ will return and Christians will meet him in the air; they will be transformed into spirits and descend to rule on the earth for 1000 years.

#2 The people that were not tranformed into spirits (unbelievers) will live under the rule of Jesus and the Christian spirits for one thousand years.

#3 During this time, human life (the lives of unbelievers) will continue as it is now (Multiple generations will living and dying).

#4 At the end of this thousand years the "unbelievers" will be judged and those that are judged favorably will also be turned into spirits.

#5 Then all the dead nonbelievers will be resurrected, judged and those judged favorably, will be tranformed into spirits. At this point everybody alive is a spirit.

#6 Jesus and the all those favorably judged, will continue as spirits and will spend eternity ruling over a new planet which will be empty of all human life. They will rule over this new planet for ever and ever .

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 64 by myth-one.com]

okay. Are #1-6 Accurate now?

#1 Christ will return and Christians will meet him in the air; they will be transformed into spirits and descend to rule on the earth for 1000 years.

#2 The people that were not tranformed into spirits (unbelievers) will live under the rule of Jesus and the Christian spirits for one thousand years.

#3 During this time, human life (the lives of unbelievers) will continue as it is now (Multiple generations will living and dying).

#4 At the end of this thousand years the "unbelievers" will be judged and those that are judged favorably will also be turned into spirits.

#5 Then all the dead nonbelievers will be resurrected, judged and those judged favorably, will be tranformed into spirits. At this point everybody alive is a spirit.

#6 Jesus and the all those favorably judged, will continue as spirits and will spend eternity ruling over a new planet which will be empty of all human life. They will rule over this new planet for ever and ever .

No.

1. At the Second Coming, all human believers (those living and those dead) will be born again as spiritual bodied beings and meet Jesus in the air.
2. They will then spend the 1000-year Millennium with Jesus (at some appropriate location).
3. Multiple generations of nonbelievers should continue to live and die on the earth as they do today during this thousand years.
4. After the 1000 years, dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans. They and the other nonbelievers alive at that time will then face judgment for their sins.
5. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish.
6. Following their judgment, those whose names are written in the book of life will be born again as spiritual bodied beings into the Kingdom of God.
7. All humans who were born again as spiritual bodied beings will then rule the earth under their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for ever and ever as members of the Kingdom of God within the Kingdom of Heaven.

[JehovahsWitness]

1. At the Second Coming, all human believers (those living and those dead) will be born again as spiritual bodied beings and meet Jesus in the air.
2. They will then spend the 1000-year Millennium with Jesus (at some appropriate location).
3. Multiple generations of nonbelievers [will] continue to live and die on the earth as they do today during this thousand years.
4. After the 1000 years, dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans. They and the other nonbelievers alive at that time will then face judgment for their sins.
5. Those whose names are not written in the book of life will [...] instantly perish.
6. Those whose names are written in the book of life will be born again as spiritual bodied beings [...].
7. All humans who were born again as spiritual bodied beings will then rule the earth under their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for ever and ever [...]

So the above 6 points are what you believe to be true*?


* Edited slightly for clarity (please signal if any edits have compromised the veracity of the statement)


Thanks,

JW

[myth-one.com]

1. At the Second Coming, all human believers (those living and those dead) will be born again as spiritual bodied beings and meet Jesus in the air.
2. They will then spend the 1000-year Millennium with Jesus (at some appropriate location).
3. Multiple generations of nonbelievers [will] continue to live and die on the earth as they do today during this thousand years.
4. After the 1000 years, dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans. They and any other nonbelievers alive at that time will then face judgment for their sins.
5. Those whose names are not written in the book of life will [...] instantly perish.
6. Those whose names are written in the book of life will be born again as spiritual bodied beings [...].
7. All humans who were born again as spiritual bodied beings will then rule the earth under their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for ever and ever [...]

So the above 6 points are what you believe to be true*?

* Edited slightly for clarity (please signal if any edits have compromised the veracity of the statement)


Thanks,

JW

1. At the Second Coming, all human believers (those living and those dead) will be born again as spiritual bodied beings and meet Jesus in the air.
2. They will then spend the 1000-year Millennium with Jesus (at some appropriate location).
3. Multiple generations of nonbelievers should continue to live and die on the earth as they do today during this thousand years.
4. After the 1000 years, dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans. They and any other nonbelievers alive at that time will then face judgment for their sins.
5. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire and instantly undergo their second and permanent death.
6. Following their judgment, those whose names are written in the book of life will be born again as spiritual bodied beings into the Kingdom of God.
7. All humans who were born again as spiritual bodied beings will then rule the earth under their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for ever and ever as members of the Kingdom of God within the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Anomaly]

[Replying to post 39 by myth-one.com]

If someone states that the wages of sin is everlasting life in the fires of hell, the following verse can be used to prove their claim is false:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Okay, but for starters the verse quoted states the wages of sin is death, not everlasting life in the fires of hell. I understand many of my traditional brethren are so thoroughly convinced of the eternal hell doctrine that in their zeal to defend the doctrine they use a good number of passages that appear to have the "feel" of eternal torment, but actually don't say that at all. This is one.

In my personal studies I've only found two verses in the Bible--one in each testament--that seem to directly suggest eternal punishment. The NT verse is fairly explicit, the OT less so but still somewhat problematic for the universalist or annihilationist.

Yes, we agree that verse states that the wages of sin is death.

And death is the opposite of life.

Actually, the punishment is everlasting:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The punishment for sin is death.

And death is everlasting.

You're presenting an incoherent proposition in trying to force "death" into the meaning of "everlasting punishment". Even a common dictionary definition of death identifies the term as a cessation. Cessation is the opposite of eternal duration.

In Mat 25:46 you've presented the one and only passage using the term "everlasting punishment". Given the gravity of the doctrine--the fate of a human soul in eternity--the fact that the scholars chose to interpret kolasis as punishment seems most likely the insertion of doctrinal bias into the passage. It seems incredible that God would be so careless making a doctrine of this import known to us, especially when all the other verses on punishment in the NT, being essentially figurative, can reasonably be interpreted in other contexts. When using the alternate definition of kolasis, correction, eternality shifts duration from the punishment of the soul to the length of time God's work of rectification in the soul will last...in other words, He will cast out badness from the soul forever.

Although this is starting my arguments in the middle instead of the beginning, the highly metaphoric teaching of Jesus in Mat 25 speaks to a separation of good and bad elements (goats/sheep). Listen to the metaphor--God planted it throughout the Bible, both Testaments. It appears in Mat 13 (wheat/tares). Bad branches are cut off and burned in Jn 15 and good branches pruned and grown. This recurring metaphoric pattern points to God's wrath directed not to individuals but to bad elements within each soul (which arguably lead to bad reasoning and behaviors). In this light, the misuse of kolasis in Mat 25:46 seems likely.