What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

[Checkpoint]

The immediate context is this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So, how do you read, what do you understand, is the intended meaning of the words in bold above?

To help us along, tell us whether you see them as primarily referring to verses 13 and 14, or to verses 15 to 17.

Please note however, this thread is not about other issues you may view as being related, such as the details of prophecy.

It is about the fact of the second coming and the resurrection that then occurs.

[JehovahsWitness]

To perhaps help you (or anyone reading) to be able to get a sense of God being 'everywhere' (although those are not my words), and God also being able to come down to earth:

God did this once already, yes? When He came down to reveal Himself to Israel? [...] He came down... in more than just a "God is everywhere" way. Yes?

Please, use your own words: scrap the word "everywhere" and use the word of your choice; but explain if you can, in what sense is God coming down from heaven (the spirit realm) to the earth (our physical planet) if he is already ... [strike]everywhere[/strike] ... [put in the word of your choice, but please put a word in so I can understand]

Would it be accurate to say:

Earthly realm = earth (the literal physical planet earth)
Heavenly realm = heaven (spiritual realm where the angels live)

Yes, I think so. That is what I mean at least.

If Jesus is moving from one realm to the other, will God be doing the same?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 63 by marco]

Fair enough, I see where you are coming from.


Respect,

JW

[onewithhim]

When Christ returns, He will bring with Him those (Christians) who have died from the first century up until the time that He returns. These ones who have died are currently under the altar (in heaven) awaiting the first resurrection.

Please ask for clarification if need be.

Your post makes no sense.

The holy ones that died, were brought back to life in heaven, kept in a specific location (alive) in heaven and are awaiting... a resurrection? If they are alive in heaven what is "the first resurrection" these individuals, who are currently alive, are awaiting?

JW

The holy ones who die before Christ returns go under the altar (as opposed to going to the world of the dead - sheol/hades). They are still asleep, but their spirit goes under the altar in heaven and not to sheol/hades. Just as Stephen cried out before he died:

"Lord [Jesus] receive my spirit..."

Stephen was not talking about some active force, but rather his own spirit/himself.

Where do you get that idea? His "spirit" was, indeed, the active FORCE that kept him alive. It was not some conscious part of him that lived on. That would contradict the idea that people really DIE.

The spirit IS him... the inner man... the man we truly are on the inside. Our thoughts, our person, our emotions, everything that makes us who we are. Which is why it is the inside of the cup that matters; and not the outside. Which is why the 'flesh counts for nothing'.

The spirit of a man is what descends to the grave, sleeping, conscious of nothing... or the spirit of a man is what is received by Christ, resting (sleeping) under the altar, awaiting the first resurrection.

The grave (sheol/hades) is where Job longed to go to escape his suffering. Nothing he said indicates that he longed to 'cease to exist' to be recreated (as opposed to being resurrected) at a later time. That idea is not taught by Christ OR by scripture.

The very idea of the resurrection indicates that something remains of the person to BE resurrected. Not recreated. Otherwise it would be the first re-creation; rather than the first resurrection.

If the early anointed Christians DIED, they were not under any "altar" in heaven

Revelations says otherwise. Stephen asking Christ to receive His spirit (after being killed) also indicates that his spirit would be received by Christ, in heaven.

Of course, if they weren't truly dead, they could've been anywhere. Were they dead or not?

Didn't Christ and Paul (the one whose words we are discussing) state that they were sleeping; had fallen asleep in Christ? Sleeping does not indicate that one has ceased to exist.

Destruction indicates that one ceases to exist.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

The spirit of a man does NOT "descend to the grave." NO man's spirit goes into the grave. ALL peoples' spirits, when they die, "return to the true God who gave it." (Eccles.12:7) And that means the LIFE FORCE that kept them alive, not something that is conscious and does not die.

Sheol/Hades is THE GRAVE. No one is alive there. That is where humans "return to the dust," and they are no longer conscious of anything, neither are they really alive somewhere else.

Job did long to go to Sheol, the grave. He wanted to escape from his acute suffering. He was miserable. What do you think that people who died thousands of years ago are going to have to undergo? They will have been turned to DUST. You quibble about the fact that they will have to be RE-CREATED? Why do you disagree with that? Their re-creation is involved in their RESURRECTION. They are mutually interdependent. The victims of the Titanic will be resurrected. How is that going to happen? They don't exist any more. Spoiler: They will be RE-CREATED! Exactly as they were known before. Jehovah remembers every detail. New thought to you? I guess you think that there is no hope for some victims of the Twin Towers catastrophe---the ones who evaporated into thin air when the planes hit them. There is no resurrection for them?

You have missed a whole lot of what Christ and the Scriptures have taught.

It doesn't matter if one is dead or destroyed by God as far as what "sleeping" means. Sleeping means that the person has no conscious thought. Some that went to sleep in death will never wake up, if God deems them irreconcilably wicked.

[JehovahsWitness]

The spirit of a man is what descends to the grave, sleeping, conscious of nothing... or the spirit of a man is what is received by Christ, resting (sleeping) under the altar, awaiting the first resurrection.

So the holy ones die, go to heaven but are still unconscious in heaven? How do they "cry out" from under the alter if they are unconscious (Rev 6:10)?

[tam]

May you have peace.

[Replying to post 69 by onewithhim]

There is no scriptural evidence that what you say there is true. You are regurgitating pagan philosophy. You are a student of Plato, not Jesus.

I don't know Plato, I know my Lord, Christ Jaheshua.

And I shared scriptural evidence. You may not see it because you are a student of the WTS, and they do not see it.

"The flesh counts for nothing" only to those few co-rulers of Christ who will be changed at their death and go to heaven to be with him, thereby having to have spirit bodies.

That is not what Christ said though is it?

He did not say 'the flesh counts for nothing... ONLY TO THOSE FEW ANOINTED'


That is what the WTS says (and you are repeating)...but they are adding to His words, adding their own interpretation and spin.



They do this often... and they have misled a lot of people who are looking to them for truth. Same as every other religion has done.

But we are supposed to be listening to and following Christ! No one else has the words of eternal life; no one else can give us life; no one else is the Word of God, no one else is the Truth.

So why follow anyone or anything other than Him?



Peace again to you and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

The spirit of a man is what descends to the grave, sleeping, conscious of nothing... or the spirit of a man is what is received by Christ, resting (sleeping) under the altar, awaiting the first resurrection.

So the holy ones die, go to heaven but are still unconscious in heaven? How do they "cry out" from under the alter if they are unconscious (Rev 6:10)?

Because the Life (Christ) is in their presence. Same way that Christ could have preached to those in the world of the dead when He went there, and the dead could hear Him. He - the LIFE - was in their presence, enough to allow them to awaken, even if just enough to listen.

Those under the altar are resting as the verse states - and except for that time that John is shown - they are told to REST a little longer.

They are not awake and active; they are not reigning as kings and priests with Christ yet. That happens at the start of the thousand years, which is when the first resurrection occurs (the second resurrection occurring at the end of the thousand years).

When the time comes, Christ will return, bringing them with Him, and all who are part of His Bride but who are yet alive at that time will be caught up to the Lord and changed, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

As the verse states.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

The spirit of a man is what descends to the grave, sleeping, conscious of nothing... or the spirit of a man is what is received by Christ, resting (sleeping) under the altar, awaiting the first resurrection.

So the holy ones die, go to heaven but are still unconscious in heaven? How do they "cry out" from under the alter if they are unconscious (Rev 6:10)?

Because the Life (Christ) is in their presence. [...] enough to allow them to awaken, even if just enough to listen.

So they are unconscious but "awakened" just enough to listen? Isn't that like being a little bit pregnant? Isn't consciouse something you are or are not? Besides, they don't just listen but they speak out and say something...

This is not making sense at all.


JW

[tam]

[Replying to post 77 by JehovahsWitness]

I sincerely apologize if I am the one who is being unclear... but it makes perfect sense to me that one could be awoken from a rest, speak and be given something, and then be told to rest for just a little bit longer.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 64 by eldios]

This prophecy will help you understand the resurrection;

Thanks for two good passages.

But how, if at all, do they help us to grasp what Paul is saying in his phrase "will bring with him"?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 77 by JehovahsWitness]

I sincerely apologize if I am the one who is being unclear... but it makes perfect sense to me that one could be awoken from a rest, speak and be given something, and then be told to rest for just a little bit longer.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

But if they are "awoken" even it it's for a short time isn't that a "resurrection" or do you have a new word to call being dead and then being alive again?