Questions about Jesus and JW’s

[MissKate13]

1. Jehovah’s Witnesses say Jesus was “a god.” This is how the NWT reads (John 1:1).

Do JW’s believe Jesus was a true or false god?

2. JW’s say Jesus is a created being.

When was Jesus (capital or lower case g) created?

I look forward to your responses to one or both questions.

MissKate13

[onewithhim]

You may give me your source how it defined "all".
The text (Mat 28:18) speaks about "All", in Greek, "πᾶς pas" defined by Mounce and Thayer Bible Lexicons as the whole, entire, all things, everything, etc.
That is also in harmony with John 16:15.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
Jhn 16:15 “All things that the Father has are Mine; this is why I said that He takes from Mine and will disclose it to you

G3956 (Mounce)
πᾶς pas
all; in the sg. the whole, entire.

G3956 (Thayer) πᾶς
pas
Thayer Definition:
1) individually
1a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
2a) some of all types

It is understood that if the Father GAVE Jesus authority Jesus would be beholdin' to the Father. Jesus is always subservient to the Father, as I Corinthians 15:27 indicates. Can you tell me what you think that verse means?

Yes, the Father will always remain a father, so the Son will remain a son, that subjection is still "relational subordination." Christ as a man when He went up to heaven and when He will return as in His human nature, seen visibly and will be with the saints to all eternity. But in His divine nature He is equal with the Father, has all the perfections and the whole fulness of the Godhead dwelling in Him the divine nature bodily.

1Co 15:27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.

Nothing in the scriptures indicates that Jesus and God are equal. In fact, they show the opposite. If Christ is subordinate to the Father in any way, he is not equal to God. That they are equal is your opinion, all in your mind.

Yours might only be the opinion. Mine is from Bible which declare that Jesus is God supported by N7 sourced from P66 and P75 (papyri66, and 75).
Jesus as God, is equal with the Father in the nature of being God.
Assertions or opinions must be proven by evidence.


Jhn 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God N7  who is in the bosom of the Father, N8  that one has made him fully known.

N7 John 1:18 (UASV+)
The original words were μονογενὴς θεός or ο μονογενης θεος “only-begotten God” or “the only-begotten God” (P66 P75 א B C* L 33 syrhmp 33 copbo) A variant reading is ο μονογενης υιος “the only begotten Son” A C3 (Ws) Θ Ψ f1, Maj syrc).

Other manuscripts say "the only-begotten Son." We must go with what the entire Bible tells us about God. It is Jesus' Father and no one else. As Paul said to the Corinthians: "For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords," ---yet for us there is one God, the Father." (I Corinthians 8:5,6, ESV) I am quoting from one of your favorite Bible versions.

[Capbook]

It is understood that if the Father GAVE Jesus authority Jesus would be beholdin' to the Father. Jesus is always subservient to the Father, as I Corinthians 15:27 indicates. Can you tell me what you think that verse means?

Yes, the Father will always remain a father, so the Son will remain a son, that subjection is still "relational subordination." Christ as a man when He went up to heaven and when He will return as in His human nature, seen visibly and will be with the saints to all eternity. But in His divine nature He is equal with the Father, has all the perfections and the whole fulness of the Godhead dwelling in Him the divine nature bodily.

1Co 15:27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.

Nothing in the scriptures indicates that Jesus and God are equal. In fact, they show the opposite. If Christ is subordinate to the Father in any way, he is not equal to God. That they are equal is your opinion, all in your mind.

Yours might only be the opinion. Mine is from Bible which declare that Jesus is God supported by N7 sourced from P66 and P75 (papyri66, and 75).
Jesus as God, is equal with the Father in the nature of being God.
Assertions or opinions must be proven by evidence.


Jhn 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God N7  who is in the bosom of the Father, N8  that one has made him fully known.

N7 John 1:18 (UASV+)
The original words were μονογενὴς θεός or ο μονογενης θεος “only-begotten God” or “the only-begotten God” (P66 P75 א B C* L 33 syrhmp 33 copbo) A variant reading is ο μονογενης υιος “the only begotten Son” A C3 (Ws) Θ Ψ f1, Maj syrc).

Other manuscripts say "the only-begotten Son." We must go with what the entire Bible tells us about God. It is Jesus' Father and no one else. As Paul said to the Corinthians: "For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords," ---yet for us there is one God, the Father." (I Corinthians 8:5,6, ESV) I am quoting from one of your favorite Bible versions.

Yes, there are translations that reads "the only-begotten Son," from mostly paraphrase translations.
It would then be original Greek words used "God" vs various readings as "Son."
See Westcott and Hort's "The New Testament in the Original Greek," also rendered Jesus as God.

(Greek NT Wescott and Hort+) John 1:18 θεον G2316 N-ASM  ουδεις G3762 A-NSM-N  εωρακεν G3708 V-RAI-3S-ATT  πωποτε G4455 ADV  μονογενης G3439 A-NSM  θεος G2316 N-NSM  ο G3588 T-NSM  ων G1510 V-PAP-NSM  εις G1519 PREP  τον G3588 T-ASM  κολπον G2859 N-ASM  του G3588 T-GSM  πατρος G3962 N-GSM  εκεινος G1565 D-NSM  εξηγησατο G1834 V-ADI-3S 

[onewithhim]

Yes, the Father will always remain a father, so the Son will remain a son, that subjection is still "relational subordination." Christ as a man when He went up to heaven and when He will return as in His human nature, seen visibly and will be with the saints to all eternity. But in His divine nature He is equal with the Father, has all the perfections and the whole fulness of the Godhead dwelling in Him the divine nature bodily.

1Co 15:27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.

Nothing in the scriptures indicates that Jesus and God are equal. In fact, they show the opposite. If Christ is subordinate to the Father in any way, he is not equal to God. That they are equal is your opinion, all in your mind.

Yours might only be the opinion. Mine is from Bible which declare that Jesus is God supported by N7 sourced from P66 and P75 (papyri66, and 75).
Jesus as God, is equal with the Father in the nature of being God.
Assertions or opinions must be proven by evidence.


Jhn 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God N7  who is in the bosom of the Father, N8  that one has made him fully known.

N7 John 1:18 (UASV+)
The original words were μονογενὴς θεός or ο μονογενης θεος “only-begotten God” or “the only-begotten God” (P66 P75 א B C* L 33 syrhmp 33 copbo) A variant reading is ο μονογενης υιος “the only begotten Son” A C3 (Ws) Θ Ψ f1, Maj syrc).

Other manuscripts say "the only-begotten Son." We must go with what the entire Bible tells us about God. It is Jesus' Father and no one else. As Paul said to the Corinthians: "For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords," ---yet for us there is one God, the Father." (I Corinthians 8:5,6, ESV) I am quoting from one of your favorite Bible versions.

Yes, there are translations that reads "the only-begotten Son," from mostly paraphrase translations.
It would then be original Greek words used "God" vs various readings as "Son."
See Westcott and Hort's "The New Testament in the Original Greek," also rendered Jesus as God.

(Greek NT Wescott and Hort+) John 1:18 θεον G2316 N-ASM  ουδεις G3762 A-NSM-N  εωρακεν G3708 V-RAI-3S-ATT  πωποτε G4455 ADV  μονογενης G3439 A-NSM  θεος G2316 N-NSM  ο G3588 T-NSM  ων G1510 V-PAP-NSM  εις G1519 PREP  τον G3588 T-ASM  κολπον G2859 N-ASM  του G3588 T-GSM  πατρος G3962 N-GSM  εκεινος G1565 D-NSM  εξηγησατο G1834 V-ADI-3S 

See all of these versions that render the verse as "the only-begotten SON":

1. Interlinear Bible in Greek, Hebrew and English
2. King James Version
3. American Standard Bible /Translated out of the original tongues/1901
4. Jerusalem Bible
5. New Jerusalem Bible
6. James Moffatt
7. Douay-Rheims
8. Young's Literal Translation
9. Tyndale's New Testament
10. JN Darby/A New Translation
11. Emphatic Diaglott/Containing the Greek Text
12. New Catholic Confraternity Edition/1949-1950
13. Revised English Bible/Oxford Cambridge/1989
14. New Testament in English/Msgr RA Knox
15. Revised Standard Version
16. Holy Bible Sacred Heart Edition

There are more. It seems like a whole lot of versions consider "Son" to be the proper word in that verse. BTW, ALL Bible versions are "translated" out of the Greek and Hebrew into the English language. And they are not all paraphrased, as you contend.

[Bible_Student]

This is a note in the Study Bible about the expression "the only begotten god" in John 1:18

the only-begotten god: John is here referring to the Word, “Jesus Christ,” whom he earlier calls “a god.” (Joh 1:1, 17) John speaks of Jesus as being the only-begotten Son of God. (Joh 1:14; 3:16) In this passage, John calls Jesus “the only-begotten god,” a term that emphasizes Jesus’ unique position in God’s arrangement. Jesus can rightly be called “a god” because of the way the term “god” is used in the Bible. This title conveys the basic idea of a mighty one, and it is even used of humans in the Scriptures. (Ps 82:6; see study notes on Joh 1:1; 10:34.) Jesus is “a god,” or a mighty one, because he is given power and authority from the almighty God, the Father. (Mt 28:18; 1Co 8:6; Heb 1:2) Because Jesus is the only one directly created by God and the only one through whom all things “came into existence” (Joh 1:3), he is appropriately called “the only-begotten god.” This expression shows that Jesus holds a unique position of glory and preeminence in relation to all of God’s spirit sons. As reflected in some Bible translations, some manuscripts read “the only-begotten Son.” But the earliest and most authoritative manuscripts read “the only-begotten god” (with the definite article in Greek) or “only-begotten god” (without the definite article in Greek).

[Capbook]

Nothing in the scriptures indicates that Jesus and God are equal. In fact, they show the opposite. If Christ is subordinate to the Father in any way, he is not equal to God. That they are equal is your opinion, all in your mind.

Yours might only be the opinion. Mine is from Bible which declare that Jesus is God supported by N7 sourced from P66 and P75 (papyri66, and 75).
Jesus as God, is equal with the Father in the nature of being God.
Assertions or opinions must be proven by evidence.


Jhn 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God N7  who is in the bosom of the Father, N8  that one has made him fully known.

N7 John 1:18 (UASV+)
The original words were μονογενὴς θεός or ο μονογενης θεος “only-begotten God” or “the only-begotten God” (P66 P75 א B C* L 33 syrhmp 33 copbo) A variant reading is ο μονογενης υιος “the only begotten Son” A C3 (Ws) Θ Ψ f1, Maj syrc).

Other manuscripts say "the only-begotten Son." We must go with what the entire Bible tells us about God. It is Jesus' Father and no one else. As Paul said to the Corinthians: "For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords," ---yet for us there is one God, the Father." (I Corinthians 8:5,6, ESV) I am quoting from one of your favorite Bible versions.

Yes, there are translations that reads "the only-begotten Son," from mostly paraphrase translations.
It would then be original Greek words used "God" vs various readings as "Son."
See Westcott and Hort's "The New Testament in the Original Greek," also rendered Jesus as God.

(Greek NT Wescott and Hort+) John 1:18 θεον G2316 N-ASM  ουδεις G3762 A-NSM-N  εωρακεν G3708 V-RAI-3S-ATT  πωποτε G4455 ADV  μονογενης G3439 A-NSM  θεος G2316 N-NSM  ο G3588 T-NSM  ων G1510 V-PAP-NSM  εις G1519 PREP  τον G3588 T-ASM  κολπον G2859 N-ASM  του G3588 T-GSM  πατρος G3962 N-GSM  εκεινος G1565 D-NSM  εξηγησατο G1834 V-ADI-3S 

See all of these versions that render the verse as "the only-begotten SON":

1. Interlinear Bible in Greek, Hebrew and English
2. King James Version
3. American Standard Bible /Translated out of the original tongues/1901
4. Jerusalem Bible
5. New Jerusalem Bible
6. James Moffatt
7. Douay-Rheims
8. Young's Literal Translation
9. Tyndale's New Testament
10. JN Darby/A New Translation
11. Emphatic Diaglott/Containing the Greek Text
12. New Catholic Confraternity Edition/1949-1950
13. Revised English Bible/Oxford Cambridge/1989
14. New Testament in English/Msgr RA Knox
15. Revised Standard Version
16. Holy Bible Sacred Heart Edition

There are more. It seems like a whole lot of versions consider "Son" to be the proper word in that verse. BTW, ALL Bible versions are "translated" out of the Greek and Hebrew into the English language. And they are not all paraphrased, as you contend.

You missed to notice that the Westcott and Hort New Testament is officially titled "The New Testament in the Original Greek" and is a critical edition of the Greek New Testament published in 1881. It's a critical edition, meaning it was compiled by examining and comparing ancient Greek manuscripts to identify the most original wording of the New Testament. https://www.google.com/search?q=title+o ... e&ie=UTF-8

Westcott and Hort is not a translation, it is original Greek of the NT.
What you post are translations, mostly from outdated paraphrase.

[JehovahsWitness]

So (just to clarify) when you refer to Jesus "relational subordination" you mean, even now in his glorified position in heaven, Jesus is and will always remain

- subordinate to the Father
- in subjection to the Father
and
- obedient to the Father

Is that correct?

As to subordinate, yes.
As to subjection means to me as obedient, yes.

So even after he ceased to live on earth and for all eternity Jesus is subordinate and in subjection (obedient) to his Father. Correct? If so, what would be different for him to NOT be equal to God ? In other words, imagine Jesus was sitting next to his Father but in this scenario they were not equal... what would that look like in practical terms?

- obviously you cannot say "Ah yes, if they were NOT equal, The Father would always be in a position to command the other but it would never be the other way round (the Son could never command the Father). You can't say that, because that's exactly the situation but you believe they are equal.

- You can't say "Ah yes, if they were not equal, one would have always had infinite power, the other could only received power which he didn't formerly possess. You can't say that because that's power exactly what the bible says is the case yet you concluded they were both (the source and the receiver) equal.

So what would be different in the relationship between Father and Son if they were NOT equal?

[Capbook]

So (just to clarify) when you refer to Jesus "relational subordination" you mean, even now in his glorified position in heaven, Jesus is and will always remain

- subordinate to the Father
- in subjection to the Father
and
- obedient to the Father

Is that correct?

As to subordinate, yes.
As to subjection means to me as obedient, yes.

So even after he ceased to live on earth and for all eternity Jesus is subordinate and in subjection (obedient) to his Father. Correct? If so, what would be different for him to NOT be equal to God ? In other words, imagine Jesus was sitting next to his Father but in this scenario they were not equal... what would that look like in practical terms?

- obviously you cannot say "Ah yes, if they were NOT equal, The Father would always be in a position to command the other but it would never be the other way round (the Son could never command the Father). You can't say that, because that's exactly the situation but you believe they are equal.

- You can't say "Ah yes, if they were not equal, one would have always had infinite power, the other could only received power which he didn't formerly possess. You can't say that because that's power exactly what the bible says is the case yet you concluded they were both (the source and the receiver) equal.

So what would be different in the relationship between Father and Son if they were NOT equal?

I would make an exemplification, if you as the father said to your son, son you will be my right hand.
A good son would be obedient to you, yes? If yes, do that mean that you and your son are not equal being in the state of human in terms of rights and dignity though not of being the same roles and positions?
And I believe you being the breadwinner father would be the giver and your son the receiver.

[JehovahsWitness]

A good son would be obedient to you, yes? If yes, do that mean that you and your son are not equal being in the state of human in terms of rights and dignity though not of being the same roles and positions?
And I believe you being the breadwinner father would be the giver and your son the receiver.

Yes exactly: the son is not equal to the Father; they don't have the same authority, they do not have the same position and responsibilities and while the son can request or ask his Father to do things he cannot ever command or instruct His father.

The above is what NOT being equal would looks like. And thats exactly the situation between Jesus and his son.

So my question is, if you contend all theabive is true for Jesus yet you claim he (Jesus ) IS equal to his Father, write me a scenario where Jesus is NOT equal to his Father. What things would he havz to or not do because his is NOT EQUAL to his Father.


For example you could write :

- If Jesus were NOT equal to his father, he would have to...[FILL IN THE BLANKS]

- If Jesus were NOT equal to his father, he couldn't ...[FILL IN THE BLANKS]

Just give me ONE example of something that would signal he (Jesus) was not equal to his Father.

[Capbook]

A good son would be obedient to you, yes? If yes, do that mean that you and your son are not equal being in the state of human in terms of rights and dignity though not of being the same roles and positions?
And I believe you being the breadwinner father would be the giver and your son the receiver.

Yes exactly: the son is not equal to the Father; they don't have the same authority, they do not have the same position and responsibilities and while the son can request or ask his Father to do things he cannot ever command or instruct His father.

The above is what NOT being equal would looks like. And thats exactly the situation between Jesus and his son.

So my question is, if you contend all theabive is true for Jesus yet you claim he (Jesus ) IS equal to his Father, write me a scenario where Jesus is NOT equal to his Father. What things would he havz to or not do because his is NOT EQUAL to his Father.


For example you could write :

- If Jesus were NOT equal to his father, he would have to...[FILL IN THE BLANKS]

- If Jesus were NOT equal to his father, he couldn't ...[FILL IN THE BLANKS]

Just give me ONE example of something that would signal he (Jesus) was not equal to his Father.

What do you mean with what I colored blue above?
Why would I prove the opposite to what I believe?
If Jesus do not have equality with the Father, can Jesus spake those word below? If all means everything or 100% of Jesus had that 100% of the Father, isn't not equality?

John 16:15
15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you.
NASB

[JehovahsWitness]

Why would I prove the opposite to what I believe?

I'm not asking you to identify what you don't believe in, I'm asking you to quantify what you DO believe. You say Jesus is equal to his Father (sorry "blue" was typo), yet for most people being equal does not equate to being in subjection, in perpetual obedience and under the command of another. So to explain what you DO believe, illustrate what the absence of the "equality" you are referring to would look like. You are obviously looking at certain features of the relationship and concluding X makes them equal and without that X element they would NOT be equal, help me identify the X that you are looking at and saying "this makes them equal"...

• Jesus is always in obedience and never commands his Father. This makes them equal? No it does not.

• He his in subjection to his Father. This makes them equal? No, the very word indicates the exact opposite.

• Everything Jesus had he had to get from his Father, while his Father is the ultimate source of everything. This makes them equal? Not at all (see below)

So if none of the above makes them equal, what makes them equal?