What really happened in the garden of Eden.

[mickiel]

One of the most distorted events in human history, is the events in Eden and what really happened there. The common perception is that God created Adam and Eve, trained them and taught them and gave them his Holy Spirit: they then had to face satan, as the devil sneeked into Eden and totally messed up the heads of Adam and Eve and thus they failed some kind of test from God, and were thrown out of the garden. And this is erroneously called " The Fall."

I disagree with so much of these religious assumptions. First, there is absolutely no evidence that God gave Adam and Eve his Spirit, or that he prepared them for this " Contest" with satan. The young couple were left totally defenseless and they had absolutely no chance whatsoever against the serpent. The serpent did not sneak into the garden, he could only gain access from God himself, so God planned the event.

In Gen. 1:27, God gives Adam and Eve " Consciousness", which is what " The Image of God " means. The image of God is not anything physical. In Gen. 2:16 God commands that the couple not eat of a tree he created that contained the knowledge of Good and Evil", from that we can know that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of either good or evil, to this point. Now in Gen. 3:1 we can see that the serpent , or satan, was created by God, because he was MORE subtil, MORE deceptive than any OTHER beast THAT GOD HAD MADE! So God MADE him that way.

Then we now have satan inside of the garden of Eden ,we MUST assume that God planned on him being there. So satan was " More", in other words, more powerful than any other creation on earth. Now we have in verse 1, satan begins his deception. He goes directly to Eve, Adam stands by and does nothing, because he did not know anythingelse to do. The serpent does his thing, the young couple does what God commanded them not to do. And God knew this would happen, and God did absolutely nothing to help them, and that must be remembered and understood.

In Gen. 3:7 it clearly states that " The EYES of both of them were OPENED!" This does not mean they were physically blind before this seduction, it means they were SPIRITUALLY blind!! They did NOT have the Spirit of God or any spiritual training. They were CLOSED before this happened; they could NOT see before this event, they were spiritually BLIND!

What do you think will happen when God sends the most seductive, subtle, powerful being on earth to face a spiritually blind couple? Its academic, but totally misunderstood by religion.

[dio9]

[Replying to ttruscott]

you are putting up so much theology I can't even follow . Say what you mean strait forward.

[Yahu]

First off nowhere is the serpent identified as HaSatan.

True but we could not be blamed for equating serpent and the dragon Rev 12, eh?[/quote]
Actually the cockatrice fits much better. The cockatrice is a dragon of the sky. The problem is the ignorant just jump to uneducated conclusions.

As a matter of fact, 2 Pet 2 disagrees with this position. The pre-flood angels that sinned are in prison until they are let out during the tribulation to stand judgement. The serpent can't be Satan.

Well, the reference to their prison could be a reference to the planet earth in total and chains of darkness would then refer to their total spiritual blindness to the truth. Earth is the prison filled with spiritually blind sinners with a rehab centre in it to heal those who are temporarily sinful from their addiction to sin.

Well taking it to mean their prison in the planet earth is total against what is stated. It states they are at TARTARUS. I guess you need to look up the definition of Tartarus in the Greek. Hades was the Greek realm of the dead but Tartarus was the prison in the lowest part of Hades that was the location of the Titans/Immortals that were imprisoned in an earlier age. Scripture calls it also the abyss or bottomless pit and it isn't opened until an angel brings the key and unlocks that prison.

You CANNOT equate being in prison in Tartarus to being free to roam the earth. That is in direct opposition to what the scripture says. The serpent in the garden can't be HaSatan or Lucifer.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell <5020>, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5020 τα�τα�οω tartaroo tar-tar-o’-o

from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hell); ; v

AV-cast down to hell 1; 1

1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

Peter is referencing the story out of the Book of Enoch where the angels are chained and cast into prison and all sin is assigned to Azazel for teaching men killing strikes. Peter ties the angels that sinned with the flood of Noah in the next verse. He is talking about the pre-flood watchers of Gen 6 of which, the serpent of the garden was one of those 200 watchers.


1 Enoch 10:
Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech, and said to him: ‘Go to Noah and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world.’

And again the Lord said to Raphael: ‘Bind Azazel hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dudael, and cast him therein. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons. And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin.’

And to Gabriel said the Lord: ‘Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in battle: for length of days shall they not have. And no request that they (i.e. their fathers) make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years.’

And the Lord said unto Michael: ‘Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all generations. And destroy all the spirits of the reprobate and the children of the Watchers, because they have wronged mankind. Destroy all wrong from the face of the earth and let every evil work come to an end: and let the plant of righteousness and truth appear: and it shall prove a blessing; the works of righteousness and truth’ shall be planted in truth and joy for evermore.

According to the Greek understanding of Tartaros, the Olympians helped to imprison the Titans from that previous age. Yet the Olympians also fell into the same sin of having children and scripture also have 4 angles bound not in Tartaros but at the Euphrates. Again, those 4 are let out during the tribulation as well.

Now later in Enoch, it even talks about the forging of the chains and the imprisonment of the Watchers.

Of course Jude also references Enoch right after he talks about the angels that sinned.

Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
...
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


The second half of 14 and verse 15 are direct quotes out of 1 Enoch 1.

1 Enoch 1:
The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them:

The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling, And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai, [And appear from His camp] And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens.

And all shall be smitten with fear And the Watchers shall quake, And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth.

And the high mountains shall be shaken, And the high hills shall be made low, And shall melt like wax before the flame,

And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder, And all that is upon the earth shall perish, And there shall be a judgement upon all (men).

But with the righteous He will make peace.

And will protect the elect, And mercy shall be upon them.

And they shall all belong to God, And they shall be prospered, And they shall all be blessed.

And He will help them all, And light shall appear unto them, And He will make peace with them.

And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly:

And to convict all flesh of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

Jude is directly referencing the story of the angels that sinned out of Enoch. Enoch was a common book in the synagogues of the day as demonstrated by the number of copies found among the dead sea scrolls. Peter also ties the angels in tartaros with the flood and is also referencing the same story out of Enoch.

And the Greek definition of the location and purpose of Tartaros fits perfectly and by the way this is the ONLY reference to Tartaros in scripture, the prison of the angels.

[Yahu]

In Gen. 3:1 a "Serpent" came to Adam and Eve , in Rev. 12:9 the devil is clearly called a serpent, I would like to see any other being in scripture called a serpent other than satan?

There are several. The cockatrice as well as the 'fiery flying serpent'. It also states that from the cockatrice eggs hatch vipers and the 'fiery flying serpent' is called the fruit/child/offspring of the cockatrice. The cockatrice was the dragon of the sky called Ziz in Hebrew literature. 'Fiery flying serpent' is translated from the Hebrew word Seriph, an angel of fire BUT can't be an angel because it is the offspring of the cockatrice.

Isa 14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent’s root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

Isa 59:5 They hatch cockatrice’ eggs, and weave the spider’s web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.

There is more then an single individual associated with 'serpent'. Note Isa 14:29 references 'serpent's root' and cockatrice and fiery flying serpent. The 'serpent's root' is the serpent in the garden and pre-flood watchers. Lucifer is the 'fiery flying serpent'. This is in the prophecy about him.

The error of the Watchers pre-flood brought about the error of the cockatrice who also had children. The 'fiery flying serpent' is the child of the cockatrice. It is the cockatrice that is the 'great red dragon' of Revelation.

The serpent in the garden is in prison in Tartaros and isn't let out until the angel brings the key for the 'bottomless pit' and opens it.

So there you have it. More then one individual is equated with serpents, dragons and vipers. There are actually 3 different dragons listed in scripture. Cockatrice is dragon of the sky called Ziz. Leviathan is dragon of the waters and Bohemoth is dragon of the earth. Rahab is also listed but is believed to be a reference to Leviathan. They equate in the Greek pantheon as Zeus, Poseidon and Hades while Revelation calls the 'king over the pit', ie ruler of hell as Apollyon by his Greek name, ie the son of Zeus.

BTW, Lucifer is just a Latin epitaph of the pagan sun god. The Romans called Artemis as Diana Luciferah who was the twin of Apollo. Lucifer is a reference to the Greek god Apollo who took both the serpent and the winged lion as his symbols.

And one last point. It was the serpent that was in conflict with the woman in Genesis AND the 'SEED OF the serpent' and the 'SEED OF the woman'.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

So it is the 'seed/offspring of the serpent', not the serpent itself that is in conflict with the 'seed/offspring of the woman'. Everyone seems to forget about the 'serpent's seed' part of the passage.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to ttruscott]

you are putting up so much theology I can't even follow . Say what you mean strait forward.

I just did but you can't understand it because you do not accept it, not the other way round....which is ok because it took me over a year to get where it started to make sense. All my biases and assumptions had to be held in abeyance to be able to digest it.

If I went into detail I could write a book. I keep saying that and no one believes it. Nearly 300 verses of support with exegesis. I will not write out much of this just to have it thrown back into my face. I don't know who you are so right now you are stuck with going to my profile and searching for 'all posts' starting at my join date... You've been here a year and I've written nearly every day for some 4 and 1/2 years, average 3.88 posts per day...if you missed me, it ain't my fault.

Later...

[JehovahsWitness]

By granting us free will, that is, the ability and opportunity to choose for ourselves by our free will to become perfectly holy or to become perfectly evil HE knew the POSSIBILITY that HIS plan that everyone would choose for HIM (and thus the heavenly marriage would start at that moment)

Yes but there is a difference between knowing an alternative may happen and starting a contingency plan. God doesn't have to plan for failure, he doesn't have to take any action for things going to the left when he hopes things would go to the right because he can react at the moment things happen without needing a head start.

To illustrate: If we put fire extinguishers around the house, its to put the possibility of a fire out should it happen, because we could not rush to the store and buy one if there was a fire. In other words we need a headstart on the fire so things wount get out of hand. God can instantly put out any fire should it happen, he can find and apply any solution to any problem as and when it happens, he IS the fire extinguisher. The only thing that needs to be put around the house" is HIM.

in view of the above, YHWH Jehovah can watch the human families story unroll, play out in real time, and if things do "go wrong" he can find the solution instantly and put in place any necessary arrangements. This means he could honestly have given Adam and Eve the invitation to life without having a pre-written "pre-nup" in his back pocket... "just in case".


JEHOVAHS WITNESS

[dio9]

The Garden story is an allegory of spiritual growth. A new believer learns of God from others. Like a child we must be taught what we doesn't know. In maturity if we have believed and practiced we eventually come to know God.

Adam and Eve are children growing up , like us , through adolescence into adulthood. The message to all of us is believe God's word which is taught to us by people who know God so that one day we might know God too. The proof that what we have been taught is truth or not is in the end whether we find God for ourselves or not. There are many false teachings which can confuse people who never get to the goal . The serpent's is one of those .

Adam and Eve like us do stupid things when we are adolescents. Mistakes we would never make as adults. We do stupid things and we suffer for them. We all do stupid things when we are young and immature. Our salvation is in believing , getting through spiritual adolescence until we grow up , then finding God. The purpose of salvation is to find God.

Poor Adam and Eve made a mistake , like the children's rhyme " Jack and Jill" , Adam and Eve went up the hill to fetch a pail of water. Only in this rhyme Eve fell down and broke her crown and Adam came tumbling after.

Why do children suffer? Mostly because they don't listen to their parents. When we are parents we need to listen to God. Ideally children will listen , not fall down, and become parents themselves. Parents have God to listen too.

The garden story is about listening to our parents , God , and growing up . Adam and Eve show us what not to do , how not to deal with the temptations we face. Like much of the bible the garden story is a story of what not do do, So that we might learn what not to do.

[ttruscott]

By granting us free will, that is, the ability and opportunity to choose for ourselves by our free will to become perfectly holy or to become perfectly evil HE knew the POSSIBILITY that HIS plan that everyone would choose for HIM (and thus the heavenly marriage would start at that moment)

Yes but there is a difference between knowing an alternative may happen and starting a contingency plan. God doesn't have to plan for failure, he doesn't have to take any action for things going to the left when he hopes things would go to the right because he can react at the moment things happen without needing a head start.

But the solution for the choice to sin was established before any sin had been chosen...seems pretty clear to me. The possibility of sin within HIS elect was enough.

[JehovahsWitness]

By granting us free will, that is, the ability and opportunity to choose for ourselves by our free will to become perfectly holy or to become perfectly evil HE knew the POSSIBILITY that HIS plan that everyone would choose for HIM (and thus the heavenly marriage would start at that moment)

Yes but there is a difference between knowing an alternative may happen and starting a contingency plan. God doesn't have to plan for failure, he doesn't have to take any action for things going to the left when he hopes things would go to the right because he can react at the moment things happen without needing a head start.

But the solution for the choice to sin was established before any sin had been chosen...seems pretty clear to me.

... as I explained doing choosing what to do before would only be necessary if God needed time and God doesn't need ANYTHING including time. If you can make a meal instantly why would you make it and put it on the back burner in case someone gets hungry. Also it would ultimately be dishonest of him to offer Adam and Eve life all the while having already put in place the arrangments for their failure - rather like writing to propose to a second woman while vowing your undying love to a first; just in case you end up getting a divorce.

God didn't NEED to choose the solution before the problem arose; a human would but you are thinking human thoughts; remember God's ways are so much higher than ours.


JW

[mickiel]

The events in Eden were premedicated by God , things happened exactly how he wanted it to. Nothing can happen that God does not want to happen,.

[ttruscott]

The events in Eden were premedicated by God , things happened exactly how he wanted it to. Nothing can happen that God does not want to happen,.

YHWH does not want sin or evil because He has/had no need for sin and evil to fulfill HIS purpose in our creation, the heavenly marriage. Sin happened against HIS will by our free will no matter how you plead the Calvinist blasphemies.