Smokers need not apply...

[Elijah John]

(Luke 5.31)

And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick.

One of our Jehovah's Witnesses said that smokers cannot be baptized and become members of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Even, apparently, smokers who want to quit. They have to have already kicked the habit.

Seems this criteria could be extended to ALL who are struggling with their bad habits.

For debate:

In light of Luke 5.31, how Christian is this exclusionary attitude and requirement?

Should Christian groups welcome of exclude those who are still struggling with their bad habits?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Yes, but you see, as I pointed out in another post, there is recent evidence that nicotine has health benefits. I believe I suggested checking out Discovery Magazine, March, 2014, for an article titled "Nicotine: The New Wonder Drug?"

Also, the topic at hand is the Watchtower Society. The Society banned smoking and drinking long before all the hubbub about cigarettes. While many assume their attitudes on smoking simply reflect their deep commitment to modern medicine, nothing could be father from the troth. The Society has no real interest at all in modern medicine. That's why they banned all blood transfusions, despite medical advice, and despite the fact it is well documented that thousands and thousands of their members have died via their refusal to have a transfusion. As I mentioned in a previous post,. these people really aren't interested in health at all, just in maybe presenting a very selective use of medical material to support their preconceived-of attitudes.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 77 by theStudent]

Yes, but you see, as Hyman Rothman once wisely said, "Doctors, what do they know?" The medicine is not an exact science, and its no surprise the medical world is full of conflicting studies and claims on nicotine, for example, just as it is on pot. Try Discovery Magazine, March, 2014, where you will find a major article titled "Nicotine: The New Wonder Drug?"

There are various models of ultimate authority in Christendom: One is church-type Christianity, where the church is the ultimate authority, your conscience. Anything I have seen or read about the Watchtower Society shows it is a church-type form of Christianity. The Society is your conscience. Hence, it is a top-down, no-questions-asked approach.

From your article....

"In short, the estimated 45.3 million people, or 19.3 percent of all adults, in the United States who still smoke are not nicotine fiends. They’re nicotine-anabasine-nornicotine-anatabine-cotinine-myosmine-acetaldehyde-and-who-knows-what-else fiends. It is tobacco, with its thousands of chemical constituents, that rightly merits our fear and loathing as the Great Satan of addictiveness."

Smoking is still bad as your article states.

http://discovermagazine.com/2014/march/13-nicotine-fix

[Blastcat]

There is kind of a pecking order in science. An example of an exact science would be something like physics or chemistry. The "hard' sciences. Top of the pile. "Soft" sciences are fields like medicine, psychology, sociology, etc. The reason is that the "soft" sciences are unable to control, manipulate and measure all the variables as well as the "hard" sciences, though the "hard" sciences also have loads of room for speculation and can't always guarantee their conclusions.


So, now you are calling medical science "soft" instead of " not exact".

I just has open heart surgery, and I can assure you, there was nothing "soft" about that science, my friend. OR inaccurate.. in fact, their techniques, their knowledge, their drugs were QUITE precise. In fact, I would say that they DID control, manipulate, and measure all the variables that they needed to. You should look at me now.. I'm not dead. I'm way healthier than I've been for a long, long while.

I don't think your characterization of medical science is ACCURATE, but rather, quite SOFT.

"Soft" sciences can be especially "iffy," can have all sorts of "holes" in their studies, which is why the results are often debatable and then individuals in these fields often change their minds.

There is very little "iffy" about medical science.
They don't know EVERYTHING.. but that could be said about EVERY field of study.

Good scientists change their MINDS when they are presented with new DATA.... the fact that science CHANGES means that it's working.

Perhaps, you should learn more about how science works.



Discovery Magazine seemed just as reliable a source as any other one might read on the topic.

I think that perhaps, real scientist might disagree.
Science NEWS might not be about good, accurate science.

Some studies are better than others.
Some sources of information are better than others.

I don't think that Discovery Magazine is an actual science MANUAL or TEXTBOOK.
Up to date doesn't equate to ACCURATE.




It cited solid medical researchers.

Are solid medical researchers always establishing facts?
The Discovery Magazine isn't science Gospel.






If you are concerned, try and dig up a copy, read for yourself, and then you decide.

It's not my concern here.






By "philosophy," I mean one's whole outlook, one's value system.

I wonder what YOUR philosophy is, and how it affects your "outlook" on how medical science is "soft" and "iffy" and "inaccurate".

[theStudent]

[Replying to onewithhim]

Yes, but you see, as I pointed out in another post, there is recent evidence that nicotine has health benefits. I believe I suggested checking out Discovery Magazine, March, 2014, for an article titled "Nicotine: The New Wonder Drug?"

Also, the topic at hand is the Watchtower Society. The Society banned smoking and drinking long before all the hubbub about cigarettes. While many assume their attitudes on smoking simply reflect their deep commitment to modern medicine, nothing could be father from the troth. The Society has no real interest at all in modern medicine. That's why they banned all blood transfusions, despite medical advice, and despite the fact it is well documented that thousands and thousands of their members have died via their refusal to have a transfusion. As I mentioned in a previous post,. these people really aren't interested in health at all, just in maybe presenting a very selective use of medical material to support their preconceived-of attitudes.

Here you do it again.
Posting false information - no facts.
If you don't know the truth, you can ask.
Jehovah's Witnesses aren't going to bite you.

But if you just prefer the slander, go right ahead.
Peace loving Jesus and his apostles were also hated and false accusations spread about them.

Now why did people do that?
(Matthew 27:18) For Pilate was aware that out of envy they had handed him
(Acts 5:17, 18) 17 But the high priest rose, and all those with him, who were of the sect of the Sadducees, and they were filled with jealousy. 18 And they seized the apostles and put them in the public jail.
(Acts 13:45) 45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began blasphemously contradicting the things Paul was saying.
(Acts 17:5) 5 But the Jews, getting jealous, gathered together some wicked men who were loitering at the marketplace and formed a mob and proceeded to throw the city into an uproar. . . .

What you are claiming is not true.
I keep asking you to provide evidence, but you do not - because you have none. Correct?

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 80 by onewithhim]

Thanks.
I'm not sure...
Some people usually make excuses for things they do, and only apply Bible principles when convenient, but a lot of it has to do with how we train our conscience.

The key point I'm trying to stress, is that our decisions as Christians should be guided by scripture, not personal views.
secular views do line up with the scriptures in some areas, but not all.

For example,
It has been discovered to be a fact that,

• violence featured in video games and movies is a problem.
• teen pregnancy is a problem.
• pornography is a problem.
• drug and alcohol abuse is a problem.

...and the list keeps going.
So when we let the Bible guide our decisions, we get good results.
It's a fact.

[tam]

May you have peace!


To the OP and to any resultant comments/posters,


If we are going to go by what Christ said, then,

"It is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean; but what comes out of a man that makes him unclean."


Such as:

For out of the heart come evil thoughts--murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

Smoke in the lungs does not make a person unclean (and the body is not the person that you TRULY are - yes, I know that some will argue that who you are is tied up in your brain, but for those who profess faith, this reasoning does not apply).


"The Spirit gives life, the flesh counts for NOTHING."



"Do not call unclean what I have made clean." (spoken by the Spirit - Christ - to Peter)

We are made clean by CHRIST. Washed clean in the blood of the lamb (although love does covers over a multitude of sins as well). EVEN IF we quit smoking, and become 'clean' from the smoke/tar in our lungs, we are still unclean (on our own) from other sins (errors) that we commit.


If we had to be clean before coming and belonging to Christ, then,

a) no one would ever be able to come to and belong to Christ.

If we were capable of being clean on our own, then,

b) there would have been no point in Christ giving His blood to cover us, and make us clean.






**

In one breath, the WTS uses this verse from Acts to prop up its anti-blood doctrine:

“The apostles and the elders, your brothers, to those brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Ci·liʹcia who are from the nations: Greetings! Since we have heard that some went out from among us and caused you trouble with what they have said, trying to subvert you, although we did not give them any instructions, we have come to a unanimous decision to choose men to send to you together with our beloved Barʹna·bas and Paul, men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We are therefore sending Judas and Silas, so that they also may report the same things by word of mouth. For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!�

(Ignoring (or unable to see) that God desires MERCY, not sacrifice.

The blood doctrine of the WTS, however, desires SACRIFICE, and not mercy.

I digress...)


In the very next breath, the WTS discards this decree and adds burden upon the people (the very thing the men in Jerusalem were arguing AGAINST), by adding rule upon rule, decree upon decree. In effect, placing the people back under [a pseudo form of] the law. Making it difficult for people who are trying to come to God FROM coming to God.


It is not that it is not good to try and help others quit an addiction that is harmful to them (unless they have made their choice NOT to quit and then it is between them and their master; and in fact, there was a time when a loved one of mine was told NOT to try and quit, because it would put too much pressure on his body due to a chronic illness). But to think to bar them from Christ and God because they smoke?



I am also not making excuses for anything I like to do so that does not apply to me. I am not a smoker. I am not a drinker. I do no drugs. (I do like my candy though, lol, and I don't eat much in the way of veggies... which actually brings in another point; the food we eat is often bad for us also - high cholesterol, known to cause cancer, granted almost everything is said to cause cancer at some point or another; the toxins we put into the air from our vehicles - if you want to talk about second hand smoke, then you should probably start riding bicycles ONLY, or driving green cars, else there might be some hypocrisy going on; radiation exposure - albeit small - from sitting in front of a computer or being near power lines, etc; etc).


But who has the right to bar anyone from coming to Christ OR place conditions upon them that HE did not place, Himself?


Not that belonging to the WTS (or any sect) means that one belongs to Christ or to God. It just means that one belongs to that particular organization. In which case, such organizations determine who can and cannot enter into 'them'.

That just does not equate to who can and cannot enter into the Body of Christ.



Peace again to you and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

May you have peace!


To the OP and to any resultant comments/posters,


If we are going to go by what Christ said, then,

"It is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean; but what comes out of a man that makes him unclean."


Such as:

For out of the heart come evil thoughts--murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

Smoke in the lungs does not make a person unclean (and the body is not the person that you TRULY are - yes, I know that some will argue that who you are is tied up in your brain, but for those who profess faith, this reasoning does not apply).


"The Spirit gives life, the flesh counts for NOTHING."



"Do not call unclean what I have made clean." (spoken by the Spirit - Christ - to Peter)

We are made clean by CHRIST. Washed clean in the blood of the lamb (although love does covers over a multitude of sins as well). EVEN IF we quit smoking, and become 'clean' from the smoke/tar in our lungs, we are still unclean (on our own) from other sins (errors) that we commit.


If we had to be clean before coming and belonging to Christ, then,

a) no one would ever be able to come to and belong to Christ.

If we were capable of being clean on our own, then,

b) there would have been no point in Christ giving His blood to cover us, and make us clean.






**

In one breath, the WTS uses this verse from Acts to prop up its anti-blood doctrine:

“The apostles and the elders, your brothers, to those brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Ci·liʹcia who are from the nations: Greetings! Since we have heard that some went out from among us and caused you trouble with what they have said, trying to subvert you, although we did not give them any instructions, we have come to a unanimous decision to choose men to send to you together with our beloved Barʹna·bas and Paul, men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We are therefore sending Judas and Silas, so that they also may report the same things by word of mouth. For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!�

(Ignoring (or unable to see) that God desires MERCY, not sacrifice.

The blood doctrine of the WTS, however, desires SACRIFICE, and not mercy.

I digress...)


In the very next breath, the WTS discards this decree and adds burden upon the people (the very thing the men in Jerusalem were arguing AGAINST), by adding rule upon rule, decree upon decree. In effect, placing the people back under [a pseudo form of] the law. Making it difficult for people who are trying to come to God FROM coming to God.


It is not that it is not good to try and help others quit an addiction that is harmful to them (unless they have made their choice NOT to quit and then it is between them and their master; and in fact, there was a time when a loved one of mine was told NOT to try and quit, because it would put too much pressure on his body due to a chronic illness). But to think to bar them from Christ and God because they smoke?



I am also not making excuses for anything I like to do so that does not apply to me. I am not a smoker. I am not a drinker. I do no drugs. (I do like my candy though, lol, and I don't eat much in the way of veggies... which actually brings in another point; the food we eat is often bad for us also - high cholesterol, known to cause cancer, granted almost everything is said to cause cancer at some point or another; the toxins we put into the air from our vehicles - if you want to talk about second hand smoke, then you should probably start riding bicycles ONLY, or driving green cars, else there might be some hypocrisy going on; radiation exposure - albeit small - from sitting in front of a computer or being near power lines, etc; etc).


But who has the right to bar anyone from coming to Christ OR place conditions upon them that HE did not place, Himself?


Not that belonging to the WTS (or any sect) means that one belongs to Christ or to God. It just means that one belongs to that particular organization. In which case, such organizations determine who can and cannot enter into 'them'.

That just does not equate to who can and cannot enter into the Body of Christ.



Peace again to you and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You say, "Smoke in the lungs does not make a person unclean." Would you call someone who didn't ever bathe & wash his hair "unclean"? I think we all would. Anyone looking at an ashtray would have a hard time saying that it was clean. People who have died from diseases directly associated with tobacco (particularly smoking) and have been autopsied, have been shown to have blackened, damaged lungs. No one can really say that this is NOT "unclean."

You say that "the body is not who we truly are." Then who IS our body? Someone else? God created Adam and Eve to live in physical bodies, on this planet FOREVER. If they had not sinned, at what point would they have gone to heaven?

Do you suggest that I and my spiritual brothers and sisters here do not profess faith? We DO profess faith, and we know that our bodies are part of our identity here in this physical realm which God has placed humans in. When Jesus rules over the earth, all people will actually be YOUNG AGAIN, and that is something Job saw in the future for humans. Why would he say that if everybody was going to have a spirit body in heaven?

"Let his [a man's] flesh become fresher than in youth; let him return to the days of his youthful vigor." (Job 33:25)

Job spoke about the Resurrection, and how humans will come back from the grave and be just like God made them to be, originally. (Job 14:1,10-15) Jehovah our God will "have a yearning for the work of his hands (vs.15)," and that work that he did when he made humans was a work that produced PHYSICAL PEOPLE. They will come back in the Resurrection as physical people. (Only a certain small segment of humanity will go to heaven.)

You say that if we were capable of becoming clean on our own then Christ died for nothing. You are confusing SPIRITUAL cleanliness with physical cleanliness. He died so we could live forever, on Earth. We could never surmount the sinfulness that we are all born with because of Adam's rebellion and his subsequent imperfection and death. It's in our genes.

But because of Christ we can be free of the curse of Adamic sin. That doesn't give us carte blanche to do whatever we feel like doing. We must do our best to imitate Christ. I and others here have presented many verses to show that what we DO is very important. Perhaps you can review these scriptures.

You denigrate the Watch Tower Society for teaching what Paul wrote in Acts. He was specifically and pointedly saying that we must abstain from blood, just as we would abstain from adultery or fornication. Would you say that someone who practices adultery should be allowed to be a baptized member of the Christian congregation? (You also apparently haven't kept up with modern medicine. The medical community has broadcast for years that "the only good blood transfusion is NO transfusion." There are many alternatives that work even better.) It is more merciful to follow the counsel in Acts and prevent any medical procedure that uses blood. People recover more quickly and do not have any side-effects like they would if they took blood. Never mind that bloodless medicine is cheaper as well.

What are the rules and "decree upon decree" that the WTS supposedly lays on its people?

No one is keeping anyone from God and Christ. If someone refuses to quit smoking, or refuses to stop screwing his neighbor's wife, or refuses to stop defrauding other people by selling them things that he has misrepresented, or refuses to stop beating up people because of an anger problem.....the list could go on.....if anyone refuses to stop these things, he is keeping HIMSELF from God and Christ.

I have shown in previous posts, as have others also, that God and Christ require people to be clean, to the extent that they have control over the situation. (Obviously people can't control the air they breathe that is tainted by exhaust fumes, etc..) If someone chooses to keep smoking or defrauding or having illicit sex, then that is their choice and they have no one to blame but themselves.

Christ, who has been guiding his church, DOES require that his followers be clean, as Paul clearly stated, and has been quoted here ad nauseum. If anyone wants to quit a bad habit, he will have a lot of help from the Christian congregation. It can be done. The ONLY reason I quit (overnight, in fact) was because of this:

"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from ALL defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2Corinth.7:1, NASB)


ALL DEFILEMENT OF FLESH. Is smoking a defilement of the flesh?

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 85 by tam]

(Leviticus 17:10-16)

10 “‘If any man of the house of Israel or any foreigner who is residing in your midst eats any sort of blood, I will certainly set my face against the one who is eating the blood, and I will cut him off from among his people. 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I myself have given it on the altar for you to make atonement for yourselves, because it is the blood that makes atonement by means of the life in it. 12 That is why I have said to the Israelites: “None of you should eat blood, and no foreigner who is residing in your midst should eat blood.� 13 “‘If one of the Israelites or some foreigner who is residing in your midst is hunting and catches a wild animal or a bird that may be eaten, he must pour its blood out and cover it with dust. 14 For the life of every sort of flesh is its blood, because the life is in it. Consequently, I said to the Israelites: “You must not eat the blood of any sort of flesh because the life of every sort of flesh is its blood. Anyone eating it will be cut off.� 15 If anyone, whether a native or a foreigner, eats an animal found dead or one torn by a wild animal, he must then wash his garments and bathe in water and be unclean until the evening; then he will be clean. 16 But if he does not wash them and does not bathe himself, he will answer for his error.’�

God strictly gave his ancient congregation a law not to eat blood.
Why? The life of the flesh is in the blood. Therefore he set it apart for one use, and one use alone - to make atonement for sin.

God made it clear why the blood was not to be eaten, and what should be done with it.
(Deuteronomy 12:23-25)

23 Just be firmly resolved not to eat the blood, because the blood is the life, and you must not eat the life with the flesh. 24 You must not eat it. You should pour it out on the ground like water. 25 You must not eat it, so that it may go well with you and your children after you, because you are doing what is right in Jehovah’s eyes.

Later, the Christian congregation was instructed to keep this command:
(Acts 15:28, 29)

28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!�

So the Bible give a teaching on blood. A very important teaching that was not left out, nor leaves us to guess.
What is that teaching?
Abstain from blood.

What does it mean to abstain from blood?
Well, what does it mean to abstain from things sacrificed to idols; from what is strangled; from sexual immorality?
If we can honestly answer those questions, then you have answered the first.

Jehovah's Witnesses try their very best to follow the Bible's instructions - its commands and principles.
For them the scripture means what it says - "Do not use; Avoid the use of."

Coupled with God's command to his ancient people, they understand why that command is so important - God views life and blood as sacred. The only proper use of it is to atone for sins... something that Jesus did once for all time.
What I find interesting about this is, that it's there in the Bible, yet Jehovah's Witnesses are the only organization obeying it.

What are we demonstrating? Do we really believe the Bible?
What are we really demonstrating in the case of what is being debated in the OP?

The Bible says one must repent of their sins, before being baptized.
Jehovah's Witnesses obey and teach this, yet many do not believe it.

Repent

1. Turn away from sin or do penitence
2. Feel remorse for; feel sorry for; be contrite about

There is no compromising for true Christians. What the Bible says, it says - we obey.
That is one way you tell the difference between one serving God, and one not serving him.

If Jesus is our Lord and savior, he gives the command, we obey.
(John 14:23, 24) In answer Jesus said to him: “If anyone loves me, he will observe my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. Whoever does not love me does not observe my words. The word that you are hearing is not mine, but belongs to the Father who sent me.
Matthew 7:21-23

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 82 by 2timothy316]

Doesn't cut the mustard with me. Some of the "authorities" used to argue nicotine was the big offender. Now some have changed their mind on that. So let's grasp at loose straws and say the "chemicals" in the tobacco. What chemicals? Who says they cause cancer? Who says they have to be in tobacco? Same old schwaffle job, as I call it. One group says pot is bad, causes cancer; another now says its medically beneficial. I stick with Hyman Rothman.

[theStudent]

[Replying to post 85 by tam]

The thing is, we need to understand Jesus' words, you would agree.
He wouldn't want us not to be concerned about sharing contaminated needles, or eating a poisoned substance. And he certainly wouldn't want us to ignore a desire to have a clean physical, mental, and spiritual state.

It is a proven fact, that what we take in mentally, is damaging to us.
Certainly, Jesus wants us to take care of our temple - completely.
What we do with our body matters to him, wouldn't you say?
(2 Corinthians 6:16)

16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.�