JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[Difflugia]

Difflugia, I am not sure I understand your position on this respect ... I think I read before that you recognized that Jesus words John quoted (John 8:58) has nothing to do with Exo. 3:14 because not even in Greek was the same wording ... Now you are saying just the contrary. Can you coordinate both of your statements in one?

When I joined the discussion, the argument being made is Exodus 3:14 in the Hebrew should be rendered with a future tense and that John 8:58 meant the present tense as perfect tense. The conclusion was that Exodus 3:14 was saying "I will be what I will be" and Jesus was saying "before Abraham was born, I had been" (or something like that), so they weren't the same, QED.

My response was that John 8:58 is quoting Exodus 3:14 from the Septuagint, which was already in Greek. That implies that the opinions about translating Hebrew tenses into Greek didn't matter because the Old Testament text John was using had already been translated into Greek and he copied the words exactly.

Onewithhim tried to dismiss my contribution by claiming that the earlier argument about Hebrew translation applied to my comment. It didn't, so I made explicit what was implicit in my earlier post. My guess is this is the source of your confusion. I said:

None of those sources have any bearing on how the Septuagint reads. They’re discussing the Hebrew of the Masoretic Text. The Septuagint is in Greek. John 8:58 matches Exodus 3:14 from the Septuagint.

My argument is that John didn't quote (and translate himself) the Hebrew text of Exodus 3:14, but instead quoted Exodus 3:14 from the Greek Septuagint. He used the exact words present in that text, �γὼ εἰμί.

Is that clear or did I miss the part you found confusing?

[Eloi]

I don't see what you see. John's words are not the same in Exo. 3:14 (LXX).

[Difflugia]

I don't see what you see. John's words are not the same in Exo. 3:14 (LXX).

Ex 3:14:

καὶ εἶπεν � θεὸς π�ὸς Μωυσῆν λέγων Ἐγώ εἰμι � ὤν· καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ��εῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ἰσ�αήλ Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με π�ὸς ὑμᾶς.

Jn 8:58:

Εἶπεν α�τοῖς Ἰησοῦς Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν π�ὶν Ἀβ�αὰμ γενέσθαι �γὼ εἰμί

[Eloi]

"I am" is common in both texts, but it does not mean the same in both. I can say: I am a doctor. or I am in Atlanta. I use "I am" in both of them, but I don't mean the same thing with each one.

Jesus says: (NT) I am before Abraham came to be.
Jehovah says: (LXX) I am the one who is.

It is not the same.

[wannabe]

[Replying to wannabe]
A extension of God is His spirit, not his son. .

Jesus wasn't God exactly,
but how else should God have sent his word to save mankind.
- Understand Jesus's words and you will understand the voice of God.

Jesus knew he wasn't just a speaker, but the son (or, the extension) of God.

John 10:36-39
"what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.�

Does this not show that the spirit of God is in Jesus.

[Eloi]

[Replying to wannabe]

Of course, those words mean the spirit of God was in Jesus, but that did not make Jesus the same person as God is. Many unted Christians have the spirit of God in them.

[tigger2]

Eloi wrote:

I don't see what you see. John's words are not the same in Exo. 3:14 (LXX).

Ex 3:14:

καὶ εἶπεν � θεὸς π�ὸς Μωυσῆν λέγων Ἐγώ εἰμι � ὤν· καὶ εἶπεν οὕτως ��εῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ἰσ�αήλ Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με π�ὸς ὑμᾶς.

God said to Moses 'I am the being.'

Jn 8:58:

Εἶπεν α�τοῖς Ἰησοῦς Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν π�ὶν Ἀβ�αὰμ γενέσθαι �γὼ εἰμί

.......................

"I am" is one of the most-used phrases in English just as ego eimi was in the Greek.

John 9:9:
�κεῖνος ἔλεγεν ὅτι �γὼ εἰμι.
[The ex-blind man] said 'I Am.'

Gen. 45:3:
�γώ εἰμι Ἰωσήφ·
"I AM Joseph."

Exodus 4:10:
ἰσχνόφωνος καὶ β�αδύγλωσσος �γώ εἰμι.
weak in speech and slow-tongued I Am.

[Eloi]

In Rev. 1:4,8; 4:8 and 11:17 John calls Jehovah "� ὢν καὶ � ἦν καὶ � ��χόμενος (� θεὸς � παντοκ�άτω�)". He does not use Ἐγώ εἰμι. It seems here that the wording is closer to that one on Exo. 3:14 in LXX.

Rev. 1:4 John to the seven congregations that are in the [district of] Asia:
May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from “The One who is and who was and who is coming,� and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ (...)

[Difflugia]

It is not the same.

"I am" is one of the most-used phrases in English just as ego eimi was in the Greek.

As I said before, it could be coincidence, but that's really the only argument you can make. John putting one of the most instantly recognizable phrases from the Old Testament on the lips of Jesus in a way that puts emphasis on those very words seems unlikely to me to be coincidence. The context also turns "I am" into his answer to a rhetorical question asked by "the Jews" in verses 25 and 53, "who are you?" Perhaps that's also a coincidence. The response of those "Jews" is a move to stone Jesus. John doesn't explicitly tell us why, presumably because he thinks it's as obvious as I do; they construed "I am" to be the blasphemy of presuming divinity. Perhaps that's a further coincidence and in the end, you might be right. I don't think so.

In Rev. 1:4,8; 4:8 and 11:17 John calls Jehovah "� ὢν καὶ � ἦν καὶ � ��χόμενος (� θεὸς � παντοκ�άτω�)". He does not use Ἐγώ εἰμι. It seems here that the wording is closer to that one on Exo. 3:14 in LXX.

Different John, but John the Evangelist also uses � ὢν in ways that I think are significant and hearken back to Exodus 3:14, including within the same discourse in a statement by Jesus that seems oddly prescient to me in light of this conversation, verse 8:47:

One that is of God [� ὢν �κ τοῦ θεοῦ] hears the words of God. For this reason, you don't hear them, because you are not of God."

I briefly discussed John's use of � ὢν in my earlier post.

Of course, we can't know what John was really thinking, but it really looks to me as if he's priming his audience throughout this entire discourse to see Jesus as the �γώ εἰμι � ὢν of the burning bush:

• á¼�γώ εἰμι τὸ φῶς — "I am the light," 8:12
• á¼�γώ εἰμι á½� μαÏ�Ï„Ï…Ï�ῶν — "I am the witness," 8:18
• á¼�γὼ á¼�κ τῶν ἄνω εἰμί — "I am from above," 8:23
• á¼�γὼ οá½�κ εἰμὶ á¼�κ τοῦ κόσμου τοÏ�του — "I am not of this world," 8:23

John is building to the crescendo. The final three �γώ εἰμι phrases of John 8 have no proper predicate. In each case, Jesus is simply declaring "I am."

• "...for if you don't believe that 'I am,' you will die in your sins...", 8:24
• "When you have exalted the son of man, then you shall know that 'I am'...", 8:28
• "Before Abraham was born, 'I am.'", 8:58

But, once again, perhaps you're right. Perhaps John had no thought of Exodus 3:14 in such repetition. Maybe it's all a coincidence.

[Eloi]

�γώ εἰμι � ὢν is a sentence, not a phrase. The first part of that sentence (�γώ εἰμι) is just a way to address to the second part. Continue reading Exo. 3:14 in LXX. There is not repetition of the �γώ εἰμι:

καὶ εἶπεν � θεὸς π�ὸς Μωυσῆν _ And God said to Moses:
Ἐγώ εἰμι � ὤν· _ "I am the One who is"
καὶ εἶπεν Οὕτως ��εῖς _ and He said: "This you will say
τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισ�αηλ _ to the Sons of Israel
Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με π�ὸς ὑμᾶς. _ the One who is has sent me to you."

I do not understand why you insist so much on a part of the sentence that does not work as part of a supposed title of God, neither there (in Exo. 3:14 in LXX) nor in the NT.