Equality between the Father and Son

[placebofactor]

Did the Father have the power to raise or elevate his Son Jesus to the same rank as himself? Let us call the highest rank in heaven "the rank of God."

Hebrews 1:8, The Father said of his Son Jesus, "Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: A sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom." Verse 9, "Therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of Gladness above thy fellows." Verse 10, "And thou LORD (the Father calling his Son Jehovah), in the beginning has laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of your hands."

And is there the same degree of likeness, similarity, and dignity between the Father and Son? If so, then the Son can be called God because it's the Father's prerogative. And if it is the Father's privilege, who are we to deny it?

[placebofactor]

Did the Father have the power to raise or elevate his Son Jesus to the same rank as himself? Let us call the highest rank in heaven "the rank of God."

Hebrews 1:8, The Father said of his Son Jesus, "Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: A sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom." Verse 9, "Therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of Gladness above thy fellows." Verse 10, "And thou LORD (the Father calling his Son Jehovah), in the beginning has laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of your hands."

And is there the same degree of likeness, similarity, and dignity between the Father and Son? If so, then the Son can be called God because it's the Father's prerogative. And if it is the Father's privilege, who are we to deny it?

Because the Father said this concerning his Son, then Jesus Christ must be God. Hebrews 1:8 gives us strong evidence of the Divinity of Jesus Christ. This decree from the Father extends in both worlds and encompasses all time, and will endure throughout all endless duration.

Matthew 28:18, "And Jesus came and spoke unto them saying, all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

If that's your proof that scripture says Jesus the son is equal to Jehovah the Father and Jesus is God, I've got news for you, placebofactor. The words "Your throne, O God" and everything that is part of that sentence is a quotation taken from the book of Psalm. Everything within that quotation from Psalm applies to Jehovah the Father. In fact, you even included the quotation marks ahead of the words Your throne, O God. Take a look at where I bolded the quotation signs in red and large print. Then notice at verse 9 (which is part of the same quotation from Psalm) where it clearly says God is Jesus' God.


Below is the quotation from the book of Psalm that the writer of the book of Hebrews quoted/copied.

Psalm 45:6
God is your throne forever and ever; The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness.

Psalm 45:7
You loved righteousness, and you hated wickedness. That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.

You make it appear that the Father and Son are competing over who is greater.
You wrote, "If that's your proof that scripture says Jesus the son is equal to Jehovah the Father and Jesus is God, I've got news for you, placebofactor. The words "Your throne, O God" and everything that is part of that sentence is a quotation taken from the book of Psalm. Everything within that quotation from Psalm applies to Jehovah the Father.

That's where you are wrong. If no man has ever seen the Father, and in the Old Testament, no man has ever heard his voice, then you had better reexamine your position.

The Jehovah who was SEEN BY Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Manoah; the one who spoke to David, the Jehovah who walked in the garden with Adam, who wrestled with Jacob, who was seen, ate with, and spoke face to face with others, was the Son of God, who is Jehovah. Not that he is the Father, he is the Son who carries the same name, and glory given to him by his Father.

And as for our Father in the Old Testament, Isaiah the prophet of God, who knows a heck of a lot more about God than either of us said, that the Son to be given is to be called, Isaiah 9:6, 'the Everlasting Father." Jesus (Jehovah) is our Father, to the glory of his Father (Jehovah). Yes, Jesus is our Father, and his Father is our Father, and Jesus is our Jehovah, and his Father is our Jehovah. We are a Family with a Father and a (Grand) Father, both carrying the name YHWH.

[NeutralZone]

Did the Father have the power to raise or elevate his Son Jesus to the same rank as himself? Let us call the highest rank in heaven "the rank of God."

Hebrews 1:8, The Father said of his Son Jesus, "Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: A sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom." Verse 9, "Therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of Gladness above thy fellows." Verse 10, "And thou LORD (the Father calling his Son Jehovah), in the beginning has laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of your hands."

And is there the same degree of likeness, similarity, and dignity between the Father and Son? If so, then the Son can be called God because it's the Father's prerogative. And if it is the Father's privilege, who are we to deny it?

If that's your proof that scripture says Jesus the son is equal to Jehovah the Father and Jesus is God, I've got news for you, placebofactor. The words "Your throne, O God" and everything that is part of that sentence is a quotation taken from the book of Psalm. Everything within that quotation from Psalm applies to Jehovah the Father. In fact, you even included the quotation marks ahead of the words Your throne, O God. Take a look at where I bolded the quotation signs in red and large print. Then notice at verse 9 (which is part of the same quotation from Psalm) where it clearly says God is Jesus' God.


Below is the quotation from the book of Psalm that the writer of the book of Hebrews quoted/copied.

Psalm 45:6
God is your throne forever and ever; The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness.

Psalm 45:7
You loved righteousness, and you hated wickedness. That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.

You make it appear that the Father and Son are competing over who is greater.
You wrote, "If that's your proof that scripture says Jesus the son is equal to Jehovah the Father and Jesus is God, I've got news for you, placebofactor. The words "Your throne, O God" and everything that is part of that sentence is a quotation taken from the book of Psalm. Everything within that quotation from Psalm applies to Jehovah the Father.

placebofactor:

There's no need for me to, as you put it: "make it appear that the Father and Son are competing over who is greater." Jesus himself said it.

John 14:28
You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.

[NeutralZone]

That's where you are wrong. If no man has ever seen the Father, and in the Old Testament, no man has ever heard his voice, then you had better reexamine your position.

The Jehovah who was SEEN BY Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Manoah; the one who spoke to David, the Jehovah who walked in the garden with Adam, who wrestled with Jacob, who was seen, ate with, and spoke face to face with others, was the Son of God, who is Jehovah. Not that he is the Father, he is the Son who carries the same name, and glory given to him by his Father.

And as for our Father in the Old Testament, Isaiah the prophet of God, who knows a heck of a lot more about God than either of us said, that the Son to be given is to be called, Isaiah 9:6, 'the Everlasting Father." Jesus (Jehovah) is our Father, to the glory of his Father (Jehovah). Yes, Jesus is our Father, and his Father is our Father, and Jesus is our Jehovah, and his Father is our Jehovah. We are a Family with a Father and a (Grand) Father, both carrying the name YHWH.

Almighty God Jehovah has never been seen by a human. If that were to happen, the person would not have lived to tell the tale. When Moses asked Jehovah to let Moses see his face, below is the response Moses got from the Almighty.

Exodus 33:17
Jehovah went on to say to Moses: I will also do this thing that you request, because you have found favor in my eyes and I know you by name.

Exodus 33:18
Then he [Moses] said: Please show me your glory.

Exodus 33:19
But he [Jehovah] said: I will make all my goodness pass before your face, and I will declare before you the name of Jehovah; and I will favor the one whom I favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I show mercy.

Exodus 33:20
But he added: You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.


All of the instances you are referencing in your above response are of incidents where Jehovah was represented by various angels. Whenever that occurred, the Bible identified the angel as "Jehovah," because in that instance, the particular angel became Jehovah's mouthpiece.

[Capbook]

Did the Father have the power to raise or elevate his Son Jesus to the same rank as himself? Let us call the highest rank in heaven "the rank of God."

Hebrews 1:8, The Father said of his Son Jesus, "Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: A sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom." Verse 9, "Therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of Gladness above thy fellows." Verse 10, "And thou LORD (the Father calling his Son Jehovah), in the beginning has laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of your hands."

And is there the same degree of likeness, similarity, and dignity between the Father and Son? If so, then the Son can be called God because it's the Father's prerogative. And if it is the Father's privilege, who are we to deny it?

Because the Father said this concerning his Son, then Jesus Christ must be God. Hebrews 1:8 gives us strong evidence of the Divinity of Jesus Christ. This decree from the Father extends in both worlds and encompasses all time, and will endure throughout all endless duration.

Matthew 28:18, "And Jesus came and spoke unto them saying, all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

If that's your proof that scripture says Jesus the son is equal to Jehovah the Father and Jesus is God, I've got news for you, placebofactor. The words "Your throne, O God" and everything that is part of that sentence is a quotation taken from the book of Psalm. Everything within that quotation from Psalm applies to Jehovah the Father. In fact, you even included the quotation marks ahead of the words Your throne, O God. Take a look at where I bolded the quotation signs in red and large print. Then notice at verse 9 (which is part of the same quotation from Psalm) where it clearly says God is Jesus' God.


Below is the quotation from the book of Psalm that the writer of the book of Hebrews quoted/copied.

Psalm 45:6
God is your throne forever and ever; The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness.

Psalm 45:7
You loved righteousness, and you hated wickedness. That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.

Do you mean that the Father has a God in verse 7?
As you interpret everything within that quotation applies to the Father.

[placebofactor]

That's where you are wrong. If no man has ever seen the Father, and in the Old Testament, no man has ever heard his voice, then you had better reexamine your position.

The Jehovah who was SEEN BY Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Manoah; the one who spoke to David, the Jehovah who walked in the garden with Adam, who wrestled with Jacob, who was seen, ate with, and spoke face to face with others, was the Son of God, who is Jehovah. Not that he is the Father, he is the Son who carries the same name, and glory given to him by his Father.

And as for our Father in the Old Testament, Isaiah the prophet of God, who knows a heck of a lot more about God than either of us said, that the Son to be given is to be called, Isaiah 9:6, 'the Everlasting Father." Jesus (Jehovah) is our Father, to the glory of his Father (Jehovah). Yes, Jesus is our Father, and his Father is our Father, and Jesus is our Jehovah, and his Father is our Jehovah. We are a Family with a Father and a (Grand) Father, both carrying the name YHWH.

Almighty God Jehovah has never been seen by a human. If that were to happen, the person would not have lived to tell the tale. When Moses asked Jehovah to let Moses see his face, below is the response Moses got from the Almighty.

Exodus 33:17
Jehovah went on to say to Moses: I will also do this thing that you request, because you have found favor in my eyes and I know you by name.

Exodus 33:18
Then he [Moses] said: Please show me your glory.

Exodus 33:19
But he [Jehovah] said: I will make all my goodness pass before your face, and I will declare before you the name of Jehovah; and I will favor the one whom I favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I show mercy.

Exodus 33:20
But he added: You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.


All of the instances you are referencing in your above response are of incidents where Jehovah was represented by various angels. Whenever that occurred, the Bible identified the angel as "Jehovah," because in that instance, the particular angel became Jehovah's mouthpiece.

When Jacob wrestled with the stranger, then said in Genesis 32:30, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved," are you saying Jacob didn't know what he was talking about?

Are you Neutral Zone denying the following? Genesis 18:1, "And the LORD (Jehovah) appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre," Verse 13, "And the LORD (Jehovah) said to him (Abraham,"

Wow! What nonsense. To what extreme are you willing to go to support that nonsense? Now, bear with me. What you are saying is, when Manoah and his wife in Judges 13:22 said, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God.' Are you saying neither Manoah nor his wife knows what they're talking about?

When the LORD walked in the garden with Adam and Eve, and they never saw him, is that what you're saying?

Captain of the host of the LORD is another title held by the Son of God." Joshua 5:14-15, "As the captain of the host of the LORD am I now come, And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship," If this was an angel, he would have told Joshua to get up, worship only God, but he didn't. The captain of the host of the LORD said to Joshua, "Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon you stand is holy, and Joshua did so." That's exactly what the LORD said to Moses at the burning bush.

When Isaiah said in Isaiah 9:6, that the Son to be given is mighty God, and he is the Everlasting Father, are you saying Isaiah did not know what he was talking about? If Isaiah was speaking of another God besides Jehovah, the Jews would have stoned him to death for breaking the law.

And when Matthew wrote that the son to be born to us shall be called Emmanuel, which is interpreted, "God with us," that the disciple Matthew did not know what he was talking about?

And when John wrote in John 1:1, "The Word (Jesus) was God," he didn't know what he was talking about?

In Revelation 1:8, Jesus himself said, "I am the Almighty."

I'll stop here. every verse above is correct, and every verse you will deny, the N.W.T. has changed, and claims that the rest of the religious world does not know what we're talking about.
I will not accept any idea that my King James, NIV., Douay, Wycliffe, Tyndale Bibles, Adam Clark, Matthew Henry, Noah Webster, Sir Isaac Newton, Jamieson, Fausset, Brown, Zuck, Walvoord, Ussher, and I can name 100 more are all wrong, and that you're right? Is that what you're going to tell me? Are you going to tell me men like Washington and Lincoln in a time of war were praying to the wrong God? Both men prayed on their knees to the Lord Jesus to save America, and he did save us.

[NeutralZone]

If that's your proof that scripture says Jesus the son is equal to Jehovah the Father and Jesus is God, I've got news for you, placebofactor. The words "Your throne, O God" and everything that is part of that sentence is a quotation taken from the book of Psalm. Everything within that quotation from Psalm applies to Jehovah the Father. In fact, you even included the quotation marks ahead of the words Your throne, O God. Take a look at where I bolded the quotation signs in red and large print. Then notice at verse 9 (which is part of the same quotation from Psalm) where it clearly says God is Jesus' God.

Do you mean that the Father has a God in verse 7?
As you interpret everything within that quotation applies to the Father.

That's not what I'm saying at all, Capbook. Read carefully, and perhaps you will understand what placebofactor is failing to grasp. I will provide numbers ahead of each point to make it easier for anyone reading this thread to get the point.

1. The Father is Almighty God Jehovah. He has always existed; therefore, he does not have a god (someone who created him).

2. The writer of the book of Hebrews was the Apostle Paul.

3. The word "throne" signifies superiority.

4. Whenever the title God is written with capital "G" or in all capitals anywhere in the Judeo-Christian Bible, it's referring to Jehovah the Father.

Keep those four points in mind as you read the scripture that placebofactor claims is proof that Jesus (the son) is God.


5. Paul wrote at Hebrews chapter 1 verses 8 and 9 (or Hebrews 1:8-9) the following:

Hebrews 1:8
But about the Son, he says: God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of your Kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

Hebrews 1:9
You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.

6. placebofactor cherry-picked the words from Hebrews 1:8 where it says: "God is your throne forever and ever" and claimed it meant the Son (Jesus) is God. In reality, the term God with capital "G" is Jehovah the Father.

7. Remember, the word throne signifies supriority. So when it says at Hebrews 1:8 "God is your throne," it's in fact saying that God (Jehovah) is superior to the son.

8. placebofactor also ignored Hebrews 1:9 where it clearly says the son has a god "That is why God, your God, has anointed you...."

9. The writer of Hebrews 1:8-9 was quoting from the book of Psalm. The Psalmist, King David, wrote the words at Psalm 45:6-7 with reference to Jehovah the Father and also Jehovah's position of superiority over the Son (Jesus). See the quotation below:

Psalm 45:6
God is your throne forever and ever; The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness.

Psalm 45:7
You loved righteousness, and you hated wickedness. That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.

[NeutralZone]

Almighty God Jehovah has never been seen by a human. If that were to happen, the person would not have lived to tell the tale. When Moses asked Jehovah to let Moses see his face, below is the response Moses got from the Almighty.

Exodus 33:17
Jehovah went on to say to Moses: I will also do this thing that you request, because you have found favor in my eyes and I know you by name.

Exodus 33:18
Then he [Moses] said: Please show me your glory.

Exodus 33:19
But he [Jehovah] said: I will make all my goodness pass before your face, and I will declare before you the name of Jehovah; and I will favor the one whom I favor, and I will show mercy to the one to whom I show mercy.

Exodus 33:20
But he added: You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.


All of the instances you are referencing in your above response are of incidents where Jehovah was represented by various angels. Whenever that occurred, the Bible identified the angel as "Jehovah," because in that instance, the particular angel became Jehovah's mouthpiece.

When Jacob wrestled with the stranger, then said in Genesis 32:30, "I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved," are you saying Jacob didn't know what he was talking about?

Are you Neutral Zone denying the following? Genesis 18:1, "And the LORD (Jehovah) appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre," Verse 13, "And the LORD (Jehovah) said to him (Abraham,"

I've already explained to you in my previous response (see the portion bolded in blue within my last response) that in every instance where it says people saw Almighty God, they were in fact speaking to various angels. Whenever an angel represented God, they were referred to as Jehovah because at that point in time they were serving as Jehovah God's mouthpiece.

So if you want to go on insisting that humans literally saw God, suppose you explain the following:

John 1:18
No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Fathers side is the one who has explained Him.


Scripture at John 1:18 says no man as seen God at anytime. Now, let's see you talk your way around that.

[placebofactor]

[Replying to NeutralZone in post #86]
What I have grasped, as long as you use the New World Translation of the Bible, and you deny the person of the Holy Spirit, you will never, ever understand who Jesus Christ is. NW.T. has changed every verse in their bible that concerns the deity of Jesus Christ. They have even turned Revelation into a Revelation of the Father, and not of Jesus.

John 1:1
Colossians 1:16
Revelation 1:1
Psalms 46:6
Hebrews 1:8
Hebrews 1:10

Let me make this challenge to you. I use the King James Bible; you use the New World translation. We will both put our Bibles aside, and you can pick one of the following. NIV, Douay, or Revised Standard version. Then we will go verse by verse, beginning with the above verses, to either prove who Jesus is or who he is not. We will read directly from the Bible, no, he said, she said, just straight out of the scriptures. The only other source will be a Hebrew or Greek Lexicon to define words. Let's say Thayer's for Greek, and Genesius for Hebrew. Both are acknowledged to be accurate and complete. That's my challenge to you.

[NeutralZone]

[Replying to NeutralZone in post #86]
What I have grasped, as long as you use the New World Translation of the Bible, and you deny the person of the Holy Spirit, you will never, ever understand who Jesus Christ is. NW.T. has changed every verse in their bible that concerns the deity of Jesus Christ. They have even turned Revelation into a Revelation of the Father, and not of Jesus.

John 1:1
Colossians 1:16
Revelation 1:1
Psalms 46:6
Hebrews 1:8
Hebrews 1:10

Let me make this challenge to you. I use the King James Bible; you use the New World translation. We will both put our Bibles aside, and you can pick one of the following. NIV, Douay, or Revised Standard version. Then we will go verse by verse, beginning with the above verses, to either prove who Jesus is or who he is not. We will read directly from the Bible, no, he said, she said, just straight out of the scriptures. The only other source will be a Hebrew or Greek Lexicon to define words. Let's say Thayer's for Greek, and Genesius for Hebrew. Both are acknowledged to be accurate and complete. That's my challenge to you.

Now you are snatching at straws like a drowning man, placebofactor. It doesn't matter which translation of the Bible I quote from. They all say that no human has ever seen God. Below is the quotation of Exodus 33:20 where Jehovah God told Moses what would happen if a human saw his face.


American Standard Version
And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for man shall not see me and live.

Berean Standard Bible
But He added, You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.

King James Bible
And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
But He answered, You cannot see My face, for no one can see Me and live.

GOD'S WORD Translation
But you can't see my face, because no one may see me and live."

Webster's Bible Translation
And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.



Below is the exact same scripture from John 1:18 that I quoted from the New World Translation (published by Jehovah's Witnesses) where it says in plain English that no human has ever seen God.

American Standard Version
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Berean Literal Bible
No one has ever yet seen God. The only begotten God, the One being in the bosom of the Father, He has made Him known.

King James Bible
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
No one has ever seen God. The One and Only Son" the One who is at the Fathers side" He has revealed Him.

GOD'S WORD Translation
No one has ever seen God. God's only Son, the one who is closest to the Father's heart, has made him known.

Webster's Bible Translation
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


Of course I expect you to come back with more nonsense since you clearly are not willing to be corrected by scripture.

[placebofactor]

Did the Father have the power to raise or elevate his Son Jesus to the same rank as himself? Let us call the highest rank in heaven "the rank of God."

Hebrews 1:8, The Father said of his Son Jesus, "Your throne, O God, is for ever and ever: A sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom." Verse 9, "Therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of Gladness above thy fellows." Verse 10, "And thou LORD (the Father calling his Son Jehovah), in the beginning has laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the works of your hands."

And is there the same degree of likeness, similarity, and dignity between the Father and Son? If so, then the Son can be called God because it's the Father's prerogative. And if it is the Father's privilege, who are we to deny it?

If that's your proof that scripture says Jesus the son is equal to Jehovah the Father and Jesus is God, I've got news for you, placebofactor. The words "Your throne, O God" and everything that is part of that sentence is a quotation taken from the book of Psalm. Everything within that quotation from Psalm applies to Jehovah the Father. In fact, you even included the quotation marks ahead of the words Your throne, O God. Take a look at where I bolded the quotation signs in red and large print. Then notice at verse 9 (which is part of the same quotation from Psalm) where it clearly says God is Jesus' God.


Below is the quotation from the book of Psalm that the writer of the book of Hebrews quoted/copied.

Psalm 45:6
God is your throne forever and ever; The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness.

Psalm 45:7
You loved righteousness, and you hated wickedness. That is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.

You make it appear that the Father and Son are competing over who is greater.
You wrote, "If that's your proof that scripture says Jesus the son is equal to Jehovah the Father and Jesus is God, I've got news for you, placebofactor. The words "Your throne, O God" and everything that is part of that sentence is a quotation taken from the book of Psalm. Everything within that quotation from Psalm applies to Jehovah the Father.

placebofactor:

There's no need for me to, as you put it: "make it appear that the Father and Son are competing over who is greater." Jesus himself said it.

John 14:28
You heard that I said to you, I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.

The Father's relationship with his Son is a matter between them, it's no concern of ours. What matters to us, is our relationship with Jesus, nothing else. And as far as I can see, we had better honor him as we would honor the Father. Jesus sent us the Holy Spirit. He is our Redeemer, He is our Mediator, He gave his life for us, He will be our Judge, and He will be our husband. These are the things you need to consider, nothing more. You know what happens when a wife belittles her husband, sort of like how you downgrade your future husband: Divorce! You know what happened to the Jews when the LORD Jesus divorced them? REJECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!