The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[Checkpoint]

MORE THAN ONE FOLD

JOHN 10: 1-3 NWT

the one who does not enter into the sheepfold through the door but climbs in by another way, that one is a thief and a plunderer.+ 2 But the one who enters through the door is the shepherd of the sheep.+ 3 The doorkeeper opens to this one,+ and the sheep listen to his voice.+ He calls his own sheep by name and leads them OUT.

If we understand that in this first section, Jesus is the shepherd that legitimately enters through a door (If there is a door, we are evidently speaking about a sheepfold/pen) and leads the sheep that listen to him OUT, it is evident Jesus here in verse 1-3 is not refering to the same sheepfold of verse 16 . There are therefore (at least) two sheepfolds not one. The first sheepfold one that sheep are lead out of. The second sheepfold the one the sheep are put into. .... Understanding the first will help us to understand the second. Understanding the second will help us identify the "other sheep".

O.K., this time I do have a few observations on this post of yours, and our text.

1. Verses 1-3 do specify there is a door or gate for "the sheep"/"his sheep", "to enter".

2. Verses 1-3 also specify "the sheepfold/sheep-pen".

3. Yes, verse 3 says "he leads them out". But it does not say, "out of the...". So we have a choice to make: Assume he means the fold or its door, or look for something else.

4. Nowhere in verse 16 does it say the "other sheep" will be "put into" anything.

5. In verse 16 Jesus does tell us, "I have other sheep not of this fold", yes. Another puzzler to brighten our day, or add to its mystery.

Nevertheless, "Your Word is a light to my feet and a lamp for my path".

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes, verse 3 says "he leads them out". But it does say "out of the...". So we have a choice: Assume he means the fold or its door, or look for something else.

I think it's reasonable to assume the legitimate shepherd leads the sheep that listen to him out of the ...[ pen* where they where priori to his action]. They couldnt be in(side) the door because a door is some kind of solid material. They can only go through a door if opened , not stand inside the door itself. So I think we can reject the idea that his sheep were standing in a door .

* "Out" and "door" indicate they were in a pen before he calls them out. So, regarding (verse 1-4a) we have

1. sheep

2. [A pen].

3. A Shepherd

4. A doorkeeper

STAGE I

1. Shepherd arrives

2. Door [of pen] is opened by doorkeeper

3. Shepherd calls his sheep

4. Sheep respond

5. Shepherd leads them out [of pen where they were before he called them] - verse 4a

Are you with me so far?




JW

[Checkpoint]

Yes, verse 3 says "he leads them out". But it doesn't say "out of the...". So we have a choice: Assume he means the fold or its door, or look for something else.

I think it's reasonable to assume the legitimate shepherd leads the sheep that listen to him out of the ...[ pen* where they where priori to his action]. They couldnt be in(side) the door because a door is some kind of solid material. They can only go through a door if opened , not stand inside the door itself. So I think we can reject the idea that his sheep were standing in a door .

* "Out" and "door" indicate they were in a pen before he calls them out. So, regarding (verse 1-4a) we have

1. sheep

2. [A pen].

3. A Shepherd

4. A doorkeeper

STAGE I

1. Shepherd arrives

2. Door [of pen] is opened by doorkeeper

3. Shepherd calls his sheep

4. Sheep respond

5. Shepherd leads them out [of pen where they were before he called them] - verse 4a

Are you with me so far?

JW

I am with you in the sense that I can grasp what you are saying and why.

I am not with you in the sense that I agree with you.

My post on the entire passage will show you a different explanation. It will probably be posted late tomorrow.

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes, verse 3 says "he leads them out". But it doesn't say "out of the...". So we have a choice: Assume he means the fold or its door, or look for something else.

I think it's reasonable to assume the legitimate shepherd leads the sheep that listen to him out of the ...[ pen* where they where priori to his action]. They couldnt be in(side) the door because a door is some kind of solid material. They can only go through a door if opened , not stand inside the door itself. So I think we can reject the idea that his sheep were standing in a door .

* "Out" and "door" indicate they were in a pen before he calls them out. So, regarding (verse 1-4a) we have

1. sheep

2. [A pen].

3. A Shepherd

4. A doorkeeper

STAGE I

1. Shepherd arrives

2. Door [of pen] is opened by doorkeeper

3. Shepherd calls his sheep

4. Sheep respond

5. Shepherd leads them out [of pen where they were before he called them] - verse 4a

Are you with me so far?

JW

I am with you in the sense that I can grasp what you are saying and why.

I am not with you in the sense that I agree with you.

What is it that is in the post above you disagree with?

That there is a Shepherd?
That there is a door man?
That there are sheep?
..

There are a total of 9 seperate points. Could you see your way to typing the number # you disagree with, along with a sentence or two as to why?

JOHN 10: 1-4 NWT

“Most truly I say to you, the one who does not enter into the sheepfold through the door but climbs in by another way, that one is a thief and a plunderer.+ 2 But the one who enters through the door is the shepherd of the sheep.+ 3 The doorkeeper opens to this one,+ and the sheep listen to his voice.+ He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought all his own out, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice

JW

[Revelations won]

Dear JW,

You said in post 751

The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 14:1 are the kings mentioned at Rev 20:6.
Let’s examine first Revelations chapter 14:1

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

My first response is that nowhere in Rev. 14:1 does it say anything about the 144,000 being kings. That appears to be your private interpretation which you add to this scripture.

2. If they are “Kings” as you say then what is the name of each of these 144,000 kingdoms?

3. It also appears the YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT THAT THE “LAMB” (JESUS CHRIST) STOOD ON THE MOUNT ZION WITH THE 144,000.

This on the earth and not in heaven.

4. Also in Revelation 14:

6
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


So it is very clear that this angel had the everlasting gospel to”preach to them that dwell on the earth”. This everlasting gospel was to be preached “to every nation,, and kingdom, and kindred, and tongue, and people..”

The great apostasy must have been very complete to require it’s restoration by angelic administration.

It is very obvious that those upon the earth did not have the “everlasting gospel” or there would be no need for this everlasting gospel to be restored to them by angelic ministration to those who dwell on the earth.

Who was this angel?

When was this gospel restored by angelic ministry?

To whom was it restored?



JW said:
The 144,000 + 1 (Jesus) = God's kingdom government that will rule from heaven over this our planet earth.

Revelation 20:


6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I thought they were to rule with Christ on this earth?

I may have missed your scriptural source saying they “will rule from heaven?

Kind regards.
RW

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #844]

What is it that is in the post above you disagree with?

I repeat what wrote last time:

My post on the entire passage will show you a different explanation.

I am now about to start on it. I don't know how long it will take to complete and then post it.

Once it is posted we can exchange regarding points of agreement and disagreement, as we have been doing.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #844]

What is it that is in the post above you disagree with?

I repeat what wrote last time:

My post on the entire passage will show you a different explanation.

I am now about to start on it. I don't know how long it will take to complete and then post it.

Once it is posted we can exchange regarding points of agreement and disagreement, as we have been doing.

Here now is most of my explanation and interpretation.

1). The full text of this John 10 discussion

1 “Very truly I tell you, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen/fold by the gate/door, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.

2 The one who enters by the gate/door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 The gate/doorkeeper opens the gate/door for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”

6 Jesus used this parable, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate/door for the sheep.
8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them.
9 I am the gate/door; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.
13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep-pen/fold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

Our discussion so far,has stopped at verse 16, but what Jesus was teaching includes verses 17 and 18.

2). Gaining the best understanding

All who wish to understand anything in Scripture, should ensure that what they say or write comes from using sound hermeneutics.

In other words, interpretation and teaching that is based on following a number of principles, such as taking into account the background, the context, the history, and then word meanings and usages.

Doing this "homework" makes it far more likely that what comes from us is exegesis(drawn from scripture what is there), and not eisegesis(added to scripture what is not there).

So, this from me now, begins with an overall look at the whole passage. Doing this will bring more clarity to specific details, and to their place in the entire passage.

3). The passage focus

As a result of standing back and viewing all the verses together, I have come to realise that Jesus puts the continual focus on himself.

To illustrate, he says "I am" four times; "my voice", "my sheep", "my own", "my life" and "my Father", at least once each.

This being so, why is Jesus at the center of this passage? Because of what the message was.

4). The message content

All Jesus talked about in those 18 verses was about salvation.

About becoming and being saved; the salvation process. Nothing less, and nothing more.

"9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved."

What does "saved", and "salvation", mean, in the Greek?

HELPS Word-studies

4982 sṓzō (from sōs, "safe, rescued") – properly, deliver out of danger and into safety; used principally of God rescuing believers from the penalty and power of sin – and into His provisions (safety).

[4982 (sṓzō) is the root of: 4990 /sōtḗr ("Savior"), 4991 /sōtēría ("salvation") and the adjectival form, 4992 /sōtḗrion (what is "saved/rescued from destruction and brought into divine safety").]

5). Interpretation and its explanation.

This will be done by applying the above information to the text, and/or vice-versa.

Step by step, detail by detail, to create a little more clearly the wonderful salvation story as told by Jesus in our passage.

He sets the scene this way:

2 The one who enters by the gate/door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 The gate/doorkeeper opens the gate/door for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.

This is in parable form, in which figurative words are used to represent their literal meaning.

Jesus does interpret some for us. He says he is the gate/door, and he is the shepherd.

How can he be both?

Because he has two different roles in God's plan of salvation.

In the one as the shepherd he is the pioneer and completer of saving faith, Hebrews 12:2.

He is the leader we follow from the beginning to the end, and he guides, protects and keeps us all the way.

As the gate/door he is the one who makes it possible for anyone to enter into salvation.

That way was his death as the ransom for many, in our place. That is why He so emphasised laying down his life, in this particular salvation story.

That it was a death that God intended, was confirmed by his resurrection and enthronement, which were also further evidence in support of his claim to be the way, the truth, and the life.

The gate/door-keeper is the Father, who opens it for him, the shepherd.

The Father initiated and carried out the plan of salvation, which was effected through sending and anointing His beloved Son as a ransom payment for so many.

Ephesians 1:
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

4 For He chose us in him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His sight.
In love 5 He predestined us for adoption to sonship c through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will.

The sheep are anyone who will come to hear the voice of Jesus calling to them, and then following him as the only voice they have come to
know.

The sheep-pen/fold is the position of safety and security, and of rest and refreshment.

There is one more phrase or sentence to assay what it represents; this one:

9 "They will come in and go out, and find pasture."

It comes immediately after his word, "saved".

Having followed the voice and entered the haven position salvation brings, they can walk the walk by faith, and receive spiritual nourishment to help them stand strong.


That concludes the needed interpretation of this parable's words and phrases.




[last draft. Please do reply now, if you wish to. Thanks for waiting.]

(See also post #849)

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #844

Hi, JW,

I hope you are not getting just a little tired of waiting to read my post #847 when it is finished.

I fully understand if you are, though!

This post is my apology for the delay.

Yesterday I had written more, but when I posted discovered I had been logged out when working on it, so all I had done was lost.

Today was a different story but it has had the same result, loss of a day's work.

Sorry about that. Perhaps tomorrow and the next day will have better results...

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #844]

This post is the conclusion to my post #847 on the meaning of John 10:1-18.


6). There shall be one flock, and one shepherd

2 The one who enters by the gate/door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 The gate/doorkeeper opens the gate/door for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.


9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep-pen/fold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

These three parts of the whole passage illustrate Jesus basic message.

The first part contains most of this, in parable form, and the last part adds a little, as does the central one.

That central portion also makes it very clear, in plain language, that this entire passage is about our salvation; life abundant.



It also conveys that having life comes about asa step by step process, from death to life abundant, for whoever is one of his own.

Jesus puts it together this way:

2 The one who enters by the gate/door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 The gate/doorkeeper opens the gate/door for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5 But they will never follow a stranger;

These introductory verses clearly portray a one step after another salvation/life process.


It was and is started by God the Father opening the fold door, which is Jesus as The Savior, and as The Resurrection and The Life. Acts 5:30-32.

With the door open for him, what does Jesus (as the shepherd) then do?

He begins by calling out to his own sheep by name, and they, having ears to hear; listen to his voice!

Then he leads them, out. Why? Out of where, or of what?

This is a salvation story that depicts how salvation happens, which, if it is real, involves radical change.

Jesus said he came to seek and to save the lost, Luke 19:10. We cannot enter something without exiting from where we have been.

Jesus leads us "out of darkness and into his marvelous light", 1 Peter 2:9.

Which he meant in saying verse 4:

4 "When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice".

C
16 "I have other sheep that are not of this sheep-pen/fold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock andone shepherd".

Consider now, the similarities and differences, in context, of verses 4 and 16.

I see three similarities; "brought" and "bring", and "voice", and "sheep".

However, even those similarities have their own differences. These are significant, not minor.

Thus, :has brought" is past tense, but "will bring" is future tense. Likewise, "they know his voice" is present tense, whereas "they will listen to my voice" is future tense.

What about "his sheep" and "other sheep"?

Both seem to be present tense. Nonetheless, "other sheep" is the first part of his introduction of the whole verse, including the two future tense descriptions.

He is talking of what he "must" do, and its goal, "there shall be", both of which are future tense.

Quite obviously, verse 16 is about something yet future. Something Jesus as the shepherd had high on his to do agenda when he spoke these words:

"I have other sheep that are not of this sheep-pen/fold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd".

What Jesus explained in verses 2-5 is a continual process. That is exactly what he is saying in verse 16, and that so emphatically. Nothing less, and nothing more.

Note the word "also", which, in context, means "likewise".

These are "other sheep, not of this fold" because they are are yet to be "brought out" as the start of the whole process, "they will listen to my voice".

So, just as he said, "there shall be one flock, and one shepherd".

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #844]

Just to let you know, my explanation of the John 10 passage in my posts 847 and 849, is now completed.

It took much longer, and is much longer, than I had expected.

You may well want to respond. If so, please do.