The kingdom of God.

[Checkpoint]

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:

Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.

So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Checkpoint Let's start with your statement:

"in post #866]

Checkpoint, as far as I can see, Revelation 20 describes events leading up to and even following the GT. and Revelation 21 describes Paradise on Earth and what it will entail. Could you be very specific concerning the reasons you disagree, and very concise and succinct in your explanations? It seems to be that you vacillate between ideas. Help me to understand, in a few words, why you can't see the preface to Paradise and also events after the Millennial Reign in Revelation 20.

I can but try, onewithhim, but no promises!

Let's start with your statement:

"Revelation 20 describes events leading up to and even following the GT."

I assume "GT" refers to "The Great Tribulation", Revelation 7:14(and/or Matthew 24:21)?

If not, please clarify. If so, I am confused, as that is contrary to what I understand as the JW view...help me please!

Revelation 21 does not "describe "Paradise on Earth, but the new order, which is "a new heaven and a new earth".

I see this present age, up until the return of Jesus, as "the preface to Paradise", just as 2 Peter 3 does.

[JehovahsWitness]

I see this present age, up until the return of Jesus, as "the preface to Paradise", just as 2 Peter 3 does.

What do you mean by " "the preface to Paradise" ? "present age" we are living nos are the "last days" (the conclusion of the system of things) Jesus indicated this present age would lead directly To his RETURN and the judgement of humanity. So after the destruction of the wicked (and all human governments) who will rule over the earth? And how would you describe the conditions under whoever you believe will be ruling?

ISAIAH 9:6, 7 NIV

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end.

[Checkpoint]

I see this present age, up until the return of Jesus, as "the preface to Paradise", just as 2 Peter 3 does.

What do you mean by " "the preface to Paradise" ? "present age" we are living nos are the "last days" (the conclusion of the system of things) Jesus indicated this present age would lead directly To his RETURN and the judgement of humanity. So after the destruction of the wicked (and all human governments) who will rule over the earth? And how would you describe the conditions under whoever you believe will be ruling?

The expression "the preface to Paradise" was what onewithhim had used in her post to me. I had not heard of it until then. i took it at face value and used it accordingly. Is that a problem to you?

You correctly state "the judgment of humanity" is what will take place at Jesus' return. This judgment is explained in Revelation 20:11-15.

Who shall be ruling after that?

Well, anyone can know that by reading Revelation 21 and 22, which tell us what comes next. See specifically, Revelation 22:3-4.

I would use Revelation 21 and 22 to describe conditions under their rule.

ISAIAH 9:6, 7 NIV

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end.

[JehovahsWitness]

You correctly state "the judgment of humanity" is what will take place at Jesus' return.

So when will Jesus return with all his angels and judge the sheep and goats and destroy the goats as described in Matthew Matthe 25? Will this be after he rules over a peaceful earth of happiness or will Matthew 25 take place before we see a peaceful earth under Christ's rulership?


Please correct me le you do not believe Christ will be ruling over a peaceful earth.






JW

PROVERBS 2:21, 22

For only the upright will reside in the earth, And the blameless will remain in it. As for the wicked, they will be cut off from the earth ...

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Checkpoint Let's start with your statement:

"in post #866]

Checkpoint, as far as I can see, Revelation 20 describes events leading up to and even following the GT. and Revelation 21 describes Paradise on Earth and what it will entail. Could you be very specific concerning the reasons you disagree, and very concise and succinct in your explanations? It seems to be that you vacillate between ideas. Help me to understand, in a few words, why you can't see the preface to Paradise and also events after the Millennial Reign in Revelation 20.

I can but try, onewithhim, but no promises!

Let's start with your statement:

"Revelation 20 describes events leading up to and even following the GT."

I assume "GT" refers to "The Great Tribulation", Revelation 7:14(and/or Matthew 24:21)?

If not, please clarify. If so, I am confused, as that is contrary to what I understand as the JW view...help me please!

Revelation 21 does not "describe "Paradise on Earth, but the new order, which is "a new heaven and a new earth".

I see this present age, up until the return of Jesus, as "the preface to Paradise", just as 2 Peter 3 does.

Help me, please, to understand what you understand the JW view to be concerning the Great Tribulation.

Revelation 20 begins with Satan being abyssed, right after Armageddon, for a thousand years, the thousand years being Christ's millennial reign (verses 1-3). Then it appears that John goes back to even before the GT, because the holy ones that rule with Jesus start their resurrections before the GT. Verses 4 and 5 span the time from before the GT up to AFTER the GT when Jesus and the 144,000 start ruling over the earth. Then from verse 7 on it discusses what happens after the Millennial Reign. As far as I know, this is the JW view.

Revelation 21 has to describe the Paradise Earth, because that is what exists after Armageddon. Jesus' destruction of all human governments has already happened and the earth is saved from those that were ruining it, so how could chapter 21 be anything BUT the paradise earth? Isn't "the new order" synonymous with the paradise earth?

I agree that this present age is "the preface to Paradise." The age ends after Armageddon and begins with Christ's Millennial Reign. That is my understanding. Could you please re-state your understanding so that my pea-brain can get it? I can't, at the moment, see how you disagree with what our understanding is.

.

[Checkpoint]

You correctly state "the judgment of humanity" is what will take place at Jesus' return.

So when will Jesus return with all his angels and judge the sheep and goats and destroy the goats as described in Matthew Matthe 25? Will this be after he rules over a peaceful earth of happiness or will Matthew 25 take place before we see a peaceful earth under Christ's rulership?=/QUOTE]

Before, as it cannot be after.

Here's why:

Revelation 20 does not portray or indicate a peaceful earthin which there are no goats.

Far from it. God's enemies still exist, as otherwise the final rebellion and war could not take place after the thousand years are over, verses 7-10.

Matthew 25 's sheep and goats parable is an illustration of what the final judgment includes and achieves. As also found in Revelation 20:11-15.

It includes the two destinies, one for God's enemies, their destruction, and quite another for God's friends, their resurrection to eternal life with Him.

Thus, as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:

24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For He “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God Himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to Him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Please correct me le you do not believe Christ will be ruling over a peaceful earth.
JW

PROVERBS 2:21, 22

For only the upright will reside in the earth, And the blameless will remain in it. As for the wicked, they will be cut off from the earth ...

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #875]

Revelation 21 has to describe the Paradise Earth, because that is what exists after Armageddon. Jesus' destruction of all human governments has already happened and the earth is saved from those that were ruining it, so how could chapter 21 be anything BUT the paradise earth? Isn't "the new order" synonymous with the paradise earth?

I agree that this present age is "the preface to Paradise." The age ends after Armageddon and begins with Christ's Millennial Reign. That is my understanding. Could you please re-state your understanding so that my pea-brain can get it? I can't, at the moment, see how you disagree with what our understanding is.

This will be very brief , as time has run out. But it may help a little.

1. See my last post to JW.

2. All governments destroyed at his coming? Yes.

Therefore no undestroyed governments in the thousand years? No.

Warring nations do not appear out of nothing. They clearly exist during that time. See verses 3,7-9. Each nation has a government.

3. Armageddon is followed by the return of Christ, the final judgment, and then Paradise, which makes heaven and earth one in the new order.

Their separation belongs in the old order that will have passed away, with its sin and death.

[JehovahsWitness]

Before, as it cannot be after.

So[ we are presently in the past days. Satan's world exists under his rule and wicked people around: people are suffering. ]===> JESUS RETURNS: destroys the goats -----> [PEACEFUL RULE]


- When Jesus returns will he destroy all human govenments or not? (It wasn't clear for me in your post to OWH, I think because you mix her Word with yours and I cant see who is speaking)
- how long does this peaceful rule last
- where is Satan during this peaceful rule?





JW

[Checkpoint]

Before, as it cannot be after.

So[ we are presently in the past days. Satan's world exists under his rule and wicked people around: people are suffering. ]===> JESUS RETURNS: destroys the goats -----> [PEACEFUL RULE]


- When Jesus returns will he destroy all human govenments or not? (It wasn't clear for me in your post to OWH, I think because you mix her Word with yours and I cant see who is speaking)
- how long does this peaceful rule last
- where is Satan during this peaceful rule?

JW

I have now edited my last post to onewithhim to clarify who writes what.

Jesus returns to act as the judge of all nations, and the devil and his angels. He comes at the last trump, and will on the last day of the old order resurrect to eternal life all believers, and destroy all others, including the last enemy, death.

This peaceful rule will last forever. Revelation 11:15; 22:3-5.

Thus will the old order pass away and the new order appear in all its fulness.

[JehovahsWitness]

I have now edited my last post to onewithhim to clarify who writes what.

Thanks but I still cannot see. Do you mind answering the question again for me?

- When Jesus returns will he destroy **ALL** human govenments?